--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00003 Date: 10/29/97 From: WES LEATHEROCK Time: 03:10pm \/To: DARYL STOUT (Read 0 times) Subj: Iron Horses -=> Quoting Daryl Stout to Wes Leatherock <=- DS> I think the longest train I ever saw was 167 cars, with 8 DS> engines..any idea what the record is?? There was a thread about this on the RAILROAD list on the Internet a few weeks ago, and the longest was on one of the isolated iron ore railroads in Australia--something like five miles, but just done as a one time deal. There was also information as to what the longest ever to move in regular service in North America was, and as I recall it was a little over two miles. Unfortunately, I didn't archive the exchange. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The SANDBOX ** MidWest City OK 405.737.9540 (1:147/34) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00004 Date: 10/29/97 From: BOB WINGENDER Time: 03:53pm \/To: RICK JONES (Read 0 times) Subj: iron horses Hello Rick! Tuesday October 28 1997 11:17, Rick Jones wrote to Tom Walker: RJ> Hmmmmm, I wonder just how impractical it really is though. Union RJ> Pacific wouldn't be keeping Challenger #3985 in operating condition and RJ> use, even for PR purposes, if there wasn't some practicality to it. And RJ> 4-6-6-4 doesn't have that much more freedom of movement than a 4-8-8-4, Sure does... And they had to convert 3985 to an oil burner vice coal, due to all the brush fires they created on excursion runs with the sparks and hot coals from her. RJ> IMHO. #3985 made it over Cajon Pass and down through San Berdoo, RJ> Riverside and Ontario, Calif. just a few years ago pulling an RJ> excursion train without any trouble. THAT was a wonderful sight to RJ> see! But that's in the west where most railroads learned they needed massive articulateds and to run them, they also had to have more graceful curves. Get the video, "Union Pacific's Clinchfield Challenge" about the 3985 renumbered and renamed to Clinchfield 676 for the 50th Anniversary of the Santa Claus Special on the old Clinchfield line, who at one time, owned 6 of the Challenger loco's similar to 3985. In the remarks by the engineer, ? Lee(?), he tells how much trouble they had, mapping out routes where they could go, due to the curves, bridge limitations, etc. In fact, there is one scene after '676' remodeled, with it's running board, the side of a hopper in a train on a parallel track. Even tho 3985 is only a 4-6-6-4, doesn't mean it can go everywhere. And the 4-8-8-4 BigBoy can only go a fraction of where the Challenger can go. BigBoy was made to conquer the Wasatch mountains and Sherman hill at Cheyenne. As it was stated here recently, BigBoy would get the train to the top and then turn the cars over to a Challenger or other loco's for the rest of the trip. With it's appetite for coal and water, Big Boy was not too cheap to operate. They tried but it wasn't to feasible to convert to oil due to the firebox that the BigBoy has. Here's some of the text on BigBoy in Model Railroader Cyclopedia - Vol I, Steam Locomotives; "The longest and heaviest locomotives are generally considered to be Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 engines built by Alco in 1941 and 1944. These 25 machines were designed for the same problem as many other UP engines, the Wasatch Mountains. The idea was to eliminate helpers. Because of their extreme length, the Big Boys left this area only occasionally and they practically never ventured into short-turntable territory in Nebraska." "Careful design incorporating lateral motion devices eliminated any tendency to nosing with the Big Boys, and UP men said they were able to run as fast as 80 miles per hour although they developed their best horse power at 30. In the terminals they could round a curve as sharp as 20 degrees, equivalent to 40" in HO scale". Thats about right as my BigBoy would travel one loop on my layout, and the loop was 36" radius. On a smaller loop, about 30" radius, it would always give me problems, even tho it was a Riv loco, with extra articulation. (Bought it in 1971 for $35.97 at Woolco, Pensacola FL. Wish now I'd have purchased hundreds of the Riv models. Did get a SP 4-8-8-2 Cab Forward, a B&O 2-10-2, 'Big-6 or Texan'. Both at same or less than the BigBoy. They really run smooth...) The real Big Boy was 132' long and weighed 1.25 million pounds, with full fuel/water load. But my layout bridges could take all that weight with no problem with my Big Boy. :) Take care -=[Bob]=- Internet: classa@juno.com rowingender@worldnet.att.com rwingend@mail.orion.org ... I'd rather ride the Wave than wallow in QWKsand! --- D'B 3000A3/GoldED/386 3.00.Alpha5+REG#1047/TAG 2.7c * Origin: The Oak Tree BBS, Ozark, MO., 417-581-0868 (1:284/11) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00005 Date: 10/29/97 From: BOB WINGENDER Time: 04:54pm \/To: RICK JONES (Read 0 times) Subj: iron horses Hello Rick! Tuesday October 28 1997 11:28, Rick Jones wrote to Ken Freeman: -> TW>> But the Big Boy would have the best PR value to whoever operated ->> it. ->> True, but where would you run it? From what I've heard, those things ->> pounded ->> the whatsis out of the rail and ballast, and needed nice broad ->> sweeping curves. RJ> They somehow managed to get the thing to the Fairplex in Pomona, CA by RJ> rail, not by truck. There's a picture somewhere at the NRHS facility there RJ> showing it being pulled over Cajon Pass, so it's requirements aren't RJ> impossible to meet. But at a snails pace on some of the curves, obstacles. Not impossible but I doubt that BB could do it at excursion speeds. They also had one at Steam Town, Bellows Falls, VT, but now in Scranton, PA. And the Big Boy had to be shipped from the Alco plant, in NY(?) I believe, to the UP. It wasn't a 'Do-It-Yourself' kit after receiving many carloads of parts. :) RJ> As far as running it flat out...maybe the Santa Fe tracks east of RJ> Barstow to Flagstaff and beyond, out through New Mexico into Texas? RJ> Or the Southern Pacific in the same region? I think there's some L O RJ> N G straight sections of rail out there. I just wonder if there are RJ> any shop facilities still left that could handle the work on an RJ> engine that size, other than the Cheyenne shops maintaining #3985? The only turntable I know that is still operational that could handle the Big Boy, is at Cheyenne. On shorter tt's, they had to pull the engine on, with lead and trailing trucks not on the tt and then jack them up so they would clear the tracks. Then they could turn it. Quite an operation when they did that on the shorter tt's. -=[Bob]=- Internet: classa@juno.com rowingender@worldnet.att.com rwingend@mail.orion.org ... Retreat hell! We're just fighting in another direction. --- D'B 3000A3/GoldED/386 3.00.Alpha5+REG#1047/TAG 2.7c * Origin: The Oak Tree BBS, Ozark, MO., 417-581-0868 (1:284/11) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00006 Date: 10/29/97 From: BOB WINGENDER Time: 05:05pm \/To: RICK JONES (Read 0 times) Subj: iron horses Hello Rick! Tuesday October 28 1997 11:39, Rick Jones wrote to Tom Walker: RJ> I was watching Trains Unlimited last night on The History Channel and RJ> they were talking about #3985. They mentioned a case where #3985 was RJ> returning to Cheyenne from an excursion, apparently running light. The RJ> engineer heard, over the radio, of a train on the hill that had one of its RJ> three engines break down. It would have required a while to get a helper RJ> out of Cheyenne so he called the dispatcher by radio and offered to elp. RJ> #3985 coupled on to the rear and helped push the stalled train over the RJ> hill. A modern diesel train was saved by an "obsolete" steam engine. RJ> :-{) Damn, would I love to be part of the engine crew on that! Seen the same one!!! And my wish parallels yours!!! RJ> -+- DB 1.39/003705 Why 1.39? You know something I don't? :) Actuall been there, done it and got the tee shirt. If you go to 3000A3, be forwarned that the alpha locks ALL EMS/XMS for itself. The only way to get the memory back is by COMPLETELY EXITING DB to do external programs. -=[Bob]=- Internet: classa@juno.com rowingender@worldnet.att.com rwingend@mail.orion.org ... MS-DOS..MR DOS's sister -- DR DOS..MS DOS's Gynecologist! --- D'B 3000A3/GoldED/386 3.00.Alpha5+REG#1047/TAG 2.7c * Origin: The Oak Tree BBS, Ozark, MO., 417-581-0868 (1:284/11) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00007 Date: 10/28/97 From: KEN FREEMAN Time: 08:09pm \/To: BOB WALLACE (Read 0 times) Subj: Iron Horses On 10-25-97 BOB WALLACE wrote to WES LEATHEROCK... BW> WL> Trains of up to around 10,000 feet in length are not all BW> that BW> WL>rare now, BW> Did you mean to say feet here, or tons? A train stretching out for BW> some BW> 10,000 feet is nearly two miles long! Yep. Conrail does that sorta thing all the time with autorack drags. With them it's not difficult anyway, considering they're 89 feet, plus the drawbar. 100 car trains of them is nothing. And light, too. They ran a merchandise train a while back of 200-210 cars (I forget the exact number), they had midtrain helpers and all that. It was an experiment the decided not to try and continue with. K -*- * OFFLINE 1.56 * In these matters the only certainty is that nothing is certain. --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: - NightWorX - *HST D/S* Roch., NY (1:260/240.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EEZ00008 Date: 10/29/97 From: DON DELLMANN Time: 02:31am \/To: RICK JONES (Read 0 times) Subj: Electric railways While tripping merrily through the mail, Rick Jones was overheard RJ> AZ to Durango CO. Somewhere there in either northern AZ or southern UT RJ> I was vaguely able to make out, next to the highway I was on, what RJ> appeared to be an electrified railway which eventually ran into what RJ> looked like some sort of mine, quarry, or power plant operation. It RJ> was dark so I could see much detail other than an elevated roadbed on RJ> some catenary. I mentioned it to some acquaintances later and RJ> somebody said it was the Black Canyon or Black Mesa (?) operation. Sounds like the "Black Mesa & Lake Powell" I believe the "South Shore" is still under wire from South Bend IN into Chicago, (although freight service is dieselized, the "Little Joes" are retired) and the Illinois Central has some electrified "suburban" service, but other than that, west of the appalachians, I think most heavy electric is gone. Don ... CNS&M, America's FASTEST Interurban. --- * Origin: *YOPS ]I[* 3.1 GIG * RA/FD/FE RADist * Milwaukee, WI (1:154/750) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EF300000 Date: 10/30/97 From: PHIL KANE Time: 08:16am \/To: WES LEATHEROCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: iron horses In a message to Phil Kane dated 10-25-97 08:11, Wes Leatherock wrote: PK> My experience is if you put enough cash on the barrelhead, PK> SeaLand and others will pick up and deliver at the "multi-modal" PK> terminal tommorrow morning (their Oakland, CA terminal is served PK> by the UP, in fact). PK> Of course SeaLand developed the "land bridge" with UP and PK> ConRail to cut down coast-to-coast container time. WL> As I am sure you know, no permission at all was required WL> and UP had the plan completely ready to go when they announced it. WL> The shippers screamed loudly, and U.P. abandoned the plan WL> quickly. I can understand why. A good friend of ours is a coffee importer, and when there was a wildcat shipping boycott on the West Coast several years ago, he had to bring his stuff in via Houston, requiring land transportation both in Central America and domestically. It almost broke the company. --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 100 * Origin: HINTS (1:125/467) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EF300001 Date: 10/31/97 From: BOB WALLACE Time: 06:10pm \/To: KEN FREEMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Iron Horses KF> BW> Did you mean to say feet here, or tons? A train stretching out for KF> BW> some KF> BW> 10,000 feet is nearly two miles long! KF> Yep. Conrail does that sorta thing all the time with autorack drags. With KF> them it's not difficult anyway, considering they're 89 feet, plus the KF>drawbar. KF> 100 car trains of them is nothing. And light, too. They ran a merchandise KF> train a while back of 200-210 cars (I forget the exact number), they had KF> midtrain helpers and all that. It was an experiment the decided not to ry KF> and continue with. Good grief, what's everyone doing around the U.S. railroad network, emulating the Southern Pacific!? The S.P. as a regular routine would run virtually every freight train with _full_ tonnage, not letting them out of the yard for the next terminal until every last car was coupled behind the power up front. Part of the problem with this is that S.P. also ran about as light as they could with power up front, which often came back to haunt them on one or another of their busier mainlines at the least opportune moment. Imagine, if you will, being out on the main in front of the now-defunct BSM, a hotshot that no one had better hold up on its way from the midwest to Los Angeles, having one unit fail while hauling a two-mile string of cars and having to limp to the next siding which, hopefully, will be long enough to hold the full train without delaying the BSM. Slowing the BSM for any reason was sufficient grounds for seeing the division superintendent on your next time anywhere near the yards. --- # SLMR 2.1a # We all live in a yellow subroutine. # PDQWK 2.5 #51 --- * Origin: NetComm BBS 303-730-7045 (1:104/603.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EF300002 Date: 10/31/97 From: RICK JONES Time: 08:41pm \/To: BOB WINGENDER (Read 1 times) Subj: Iron horses -> RJ> IMHO. #3985 made it over Cajon Pass and down through San Berdoo, -> RJ> Riverside and Ontario, Calif. just a few years ago pulling an RJ> -> excursion train without any trouble. THAT was a wonderful sight to -> RJ> see! -> But that's in the west where most railroads learned they needed -> massive articulateds and to run them, they also had to have more -> graceful curves. Well...any railroads east of the Mississippi Valley are really irrelevant anyway. ];-{) -> They tried but it wasn't to feasible to convert to oil due to the -> firebox that the BigBoy has. Why is that? I was surprised to notice that the Big Boy at the Fairplex was coal, as I thought that all new steam engines by that time were oil burners. You can tell I haven't studied the historical side of things in depth since a generic feel is usually good enough for my modeling. Beat me, whip me, make me use Windows. --- DB 1.39/003705 * Origin: Teleterm Amiga West (909) 984-9580 DS HST 24hr 7 Days (1:218/103) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: EF300003 Date: 10/31/97 From: RICK JONES Time: 08:47pm \/To: BOB WINGENDER (Read 1 times) Subj: Iron horses -> RJ> -+- DB 1.39/003705 -> Why 1.39? You know something I don't? :) -> -> Actuall been there, done it and got the tee shirt. If you go to -> 3000A3, be forwarned that the alpha locks ALL EMS/XMS for itself. The -> only way to get the memory back is by COMPLETELY EXITING DB to do -> external programs. Don't know what that first line is all about. I run an Amiga 4000 with Amiga OS 3.1. No need for EMS/XMS or any of those other obsolete Messy-Dos requirements/leftovers. Used to do R&D work at Western Digital. Everything I saw there made me glad to have an Amiga. Only Amiga makes it possible. --- DB 1.39/003705 * Origin: Teleterm Amiga West (909) 984-9580 DS HST 24hr 7 Days (1:218/103)