--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECT00001 Date: 08/23/97 From: BILL NEWMAN Time: 12:31am \/To: KEN FREEMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Rochester/buffalo On (20 Aug 97) Ken Freeman wrote to Bill Newman... KF> On 08-19-97 BILL NEWMAN wrote to KEN FREEMAN... BN> I think I have seen you there a couple different times. I live BN> not too far from there. KF> Possibly. Have a white, rust and primer gray Lynx. Haven't been down KF> there as much this year as in the past, too much else going on. did KF> get in a couple good days recently, but spent more time over at KF> Savage Rd than KF> Attridge. Trying to get some "artsy" type rail shots with black and KF> white and a "Western wideangle" lens, aka 300mm. Gotta get some KF> darkroom time and see what came out. I also have not been out as much this year as I don't have the money for the gas. Last year and many before I saw many at Attridge crossing as well as King Road crossing. I was working for the town and patroled 9 different parks in the town. I used to drive different ways each patrol and used Attridge many times. I also would stop occasionally and see if there was anything special coming. KF> Send me a message teh next time that you BN> are going and maybe I can meet you also. KF> Might get there Saturday, see what goes on. You know many of the guys KF> over there, KF> like Trainmaster Johnson and Railfan Ron? If I feel better I might make it. I had an experimental heart procedure last year and some days it still bothers me. I was in the Gates Chili News last week explaining the procedure and how it was working for me a year later. Bill ... Bill Newman -- Rochester, NY -- wtnewman@juno.com --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: Disaster Exchange - Rochester, NY (1:2613/229.2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECU00000 Date: 08/23/97 From: WES LEATHEROCK Time: 07:54pm \/To: DON DELLMANN (Read 1 times) Subj: Rail-fans???? -=> Quoting Don Dellmann to Gregory Procter <=- DD> I am probably a bigger fan of trolley (trams) than anyone, I DD> even model the old Milwaukee street cars and the "North Shore" DD> (the high speed electric interurban that used to run between DD> Milwaukee and Chicago), but I have to admit, that with very DD> few exceptions, light rail in the United States is just NOT DD> practical anymore. The _Sunday Oklahoman_, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, had a column on this very subject on August 10. It was a column by a _Boston Globe_ writer named Jeff Jacoby. (And Boston is a place often held out as an example of where public transit succeeds.) The column is devoted to why the private car is more efficient for most people, why they prefer using their cars to using public transit, and also notes the tremendous subsidy paid for public transit. An interesting statistic he cites: "U.S. motorists pay a heavy price for the comfort and autonomy of car driving. In gasoline taxes, auto sales taxes, registration fees, and tolls, they cough up some $115 billion a year--far more than the $76 billion the government spends to build and maintain the roads they drive on." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: The SANDBOX ** MidWest City OK 405.737.9540 (1:147/34) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECU00001 Date: 08/22/97 From: KEN FREEMAN Time: 06:57pm \/To: WES LEATHEROCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Omaha of Borg On 08-19-97 WES LEATHEROCK wrote to KEN FREEMAN... WL> KF> No, don't think so, unless they've outbid Guilford. :-) WL> WL> But Guilford bid only on the Northeast Corridor, didn't WL> they? Yes. I even went and checked the caledar to make sure they hadn't put that offer in on April 1st. K -*- * OFFLINE 1.56 * "Vote for the crook - it's important!" --- Opus-CBCS 1.7x via O_QWKer 1.1 * Origin: - NightWorX - *HST D/S* Roch., NY (1:260/240.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECU00002 Date: 08/24/97 From: DON DELLMANN Time: 11:15pm \/To: WES LEATHEROCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Rail-fans???? While tripping merrily through the mail, Wes Leatherock was overheard WL> The column is devoted to why the private car is more WL> efficient for most people, why they prefer using their cars WL> to using public transit, and also notes the tremendous subsidy WL> paid for public transit. Here in Beertown the mayor is pushing for a light rail system that is very short and goes virtually nowhere. A popular argument is that it's needed for people who don't have cars. The amount of money required to build and operate it for ONE year will pay for a good used car for every individual in the county over the age of 16 who doesn't own one. WL> An interesting statistic he cites: "U.S. motorists WL> pay a heavy price for the comfort and autonomy of car driving. WL> In gasoline taxes, auto sales taxes, registration fees, and WL> tolls, they cough up some $115 billion a year--far more than WL> the $76 billion the government spends to build and maintain WL> the roads they drive on." $39 billion dollars in surplus buys a lot of cars :-) As I mentioned before, I wish light rail would work, I wish passenger trains were profitable (some of my most enjoyable moments were on the C&NW "Flambeau 400 {of course a bunch of coeds from St. Norbert's college helped }), but it's just not economically feasible in this country. Don ... Sometimes there's no engine pulling my train of thought! --- * Origin: *YOPS ]I[* 3.1 GIG * RA/FD/FE RADist * Milwaukee, WI (1:154/750) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECV00000 Date: 08/23/97 From: DONALD CLAYTON Time: 08:02am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: iron horses I was fortunate to grow up in the days when steam locomotives still plyed the railroad yards of Kansas City Kansas. Many a night I would go to sleep listening to the chugging of those mighty engines drifting up through the hollow near my home. Sometimes I would wake up, late at night, and wonder what the whistles signaled. Those mighty "iron horses" possessed a charisma diesels never will attain. MEMORIES OF IRON HORSES by D. A. Clayton In the years of steam and pistons, I would lie awake in bed, Late at night, and hear those engines, Wondered what their signals said. Language of the locomotive: Blowing whistles, ringing bells. When I learned to understand it, Oh, what stories they could tell. Spouting sparks and smoke like dragons, What a grand and awesome sight. In my dreams I still can see them, Iron horses in the night. Magic of the locomotive: Drivers grappling with the rail. Shattering the midnight stillness, How that magic cast its spell. Old steam engines now are silent, On their rusty sidings stand. Iron horses out to pasture, They're no longer in demand. Memory of the locomotives, In those days when steam was king. Iron horses plying freight yards, Long before those diesels came. (c) 1990 --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0147 * Origin: * The Dark Star BBS * SLC Utah 801-262-7172 1:311/21 (1:311/0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECV00001 Date: 08/23/97 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 04:31pm \/To: REGGIE ARFORD (Read 1 times) Subj: Coal-Water Slurry fuel Hi Reggie RA> ........................................................ In a power RA> AC>station, the slurry is not burned until well drained and aerated, RA> AC>a process that might take days between coal receipt and use. RA> No. (I did a senior project with the stuff in University.) RA> CWS is like ink, or very black paint. (It tends to spread...) RA> It's typically no more than 30% by wt. water; and the water RA> actually helps the combustion process. Drat. I was involved with the auxiliary power supply to a coal slurry power plant at Wangi NSW in 1960s/ 70s. The study put thumbs down on the system [I don't know why] maybe they should have kept the stuff wet!! ^^^^ (It dissociates into OH RA> radicals, which attack the soot, for more efficient combustion.) Energy from the breakdown of water, has been such an attractive goal. All that good water around and we still haven't made good energy source of it except as hydro generation. Sorry for switching the topic! RA> The heat RA> used to vaporise the water is a small fraction of the heat of RA> combustion, so that's really not a big concern, esp. considering RA> that handling the slurry has less parasitic power requirements RA> than lump coal does. The parasitic power is still required but at the mine not the generating station. I guess the pipeline pumping power is less that the rail freight power or conveyor power. RA> "Rigid" set of drivers? Not hardly! Look closely... RA> The side rods have joints near each crank pin, except at the ends. RA> The drive axle journal bearings are in blocks, which float up and RA> down in slots designed into the loco frame. I surrender! I look forward to reading about a self- steering version. for energy saving on curves. In NSW we seem to have more curves than straights! RA> the drive rod system! Note also that the rotating mass of all the RA> drive rods, and half (exactly) of the main rods, can be counter- RA> ballanced in the wheels. More dang unsprung weight! RA> [fully] sprung and equalized. The equalizing system adjusts RA> the spring tensions so that all axles receive their share of RA> the burden. That word [fully] when tagged to a steam loco coupled drivers is a bit emotive? The dynamics are awfully hard to express in text. RA> > The heavy side rods, pinned to each drive wheel, also restrain any RA> independence of vertical movement of any single axle as IT passes over RA> a valley or hill in the rail head. RA> * No; as I said, they're jointed near the middle crank(s). Again I surrender. I take your word that a joint will eliminate the extra dynamic forces that bother me. Those smart French, putting Michelin tyres on city trains!! Cheers.....ALEC ... ....The wheel is environmentally unviable --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECV00002 Date: 08/24/97 From: STEVE BRACK Time: 03:00pm \/To: WES LEATHEROCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Rail-fans???? * In a message to Don Dellmann on 08-24-97, WES LEATHEROCK said the llowing: WL> The _Sunday Oklahoman_, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, had WL> a column on this very subject on August 10. It was a column by WL> a _Boston Globe_ writer named Jeff Jacoby. (And Boston is a WL> place often held out as an example of where public transit WL> succeeds.) WL> WL> The column is devoted to why the private car is more WL> efficient for most people, why they prefer using their cars WL> to using public transit, and also notes the tremendous subsidy WL> paid for public transit. WL> WL> An interesting statistic he cites: "U.S. motorists WL> pay a heavy price for the comfort and autonomy of car driving. WL> In gasoline taxes, auto sales taxes, registration fees, and WL> tolls, they cough up some $115 billion a year--far more than WL> the $76 billion the government spends to build and maintain WL> the roads they drive on." It would be interesting to see how those stats break down. Are all the hidden costs of auto travel, such as the health costs of air pollution, the costs related to the increased accident rates resulting from traffic congestion, and the cost in lost real-estate opportunities and increased construction costs that come from having to accomodate thousands of private cars at major attractions. There's more to the cost of private automobiles than the cost of building & maintaining roads. -- SPEED 2.00 #2712: I love you. You love me. Let's hang Barney from a tree. --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: 9-1-1 FF's LEO's OSHA COMMS (619) 669-0385 (1:202/911) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECV00003 Date: 08/23/97 From: GREGORY PROCTER Time: 06:17am \/To: REGGIE ARFORD (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Degree curves -=> Quoting Reggie Arford to Gregory Procter <=- RA> This is "standard" nomenclature for curve radii (on US railroads, RA> at least). The angle quoted is the angle between the track and a RA> 100 foot long chord across the curve. RA> Reggie Arford In New Zealand the historical standard nomenclature for curve radii as "x chains" radius. I think the English used "feet" and France and Germany "metres" of actual radius. These are/were calculated from the versine and chord dimensions. Manuals of versine/radius dimensions were provided for track laying. Just to clarify your comments (I have been called pedantic before now :-) is the angle you quote above, the complete arc of the curve, or the angle of the track end to the chord. This makes a 2:1 difference to the result. The versine/chord measurement is easy for anyone with a string, tape measure and radius manual to check. Do you know how the angle was/is measured, the accuracy of measurement of the angle would have to be very precise, a minute or twos error would be a big change in radius. Thanks for the reply. Greg.P. (as in Procter, not Pedantic) ... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: Midi-Maze BBS...Christchurch...New Zealand... (3:770/355) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECV00004 Date: 08/23/97 From: GREGORY PROCTER Time: 07:30am \/To: REGGIE ARFORD (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Coal-Water Slurry fuel -=> Quoting Reggie Arford to Alec Cameron <=- RA> No. (I did a senior project with the stuff in University.) Interesting subject! I like hearing such info! AC>You have proposed that a rigid set of drivers as in conventional RA> steam locos, is sprung and equalised sufficiently for you to compare RA> with elec motor bogies. RA> "Rigid" set of drivers? Not hardly! Look closely... RA> The side rods have joints near each crank pin, except at the ends. RA> The drive axle journal bearings are in blocks, which float up and RA> down in slots designed into the loco frame. Note that this vertical RA> motion is at right angles to the drive forces applied by the rods, RA> so the two are independant. Not quite independent, the driving force from the connecting rod imparts a load against the journal block to slot face, which restricts the free movement of the axle in the frame. Recent suspension systems for high speed work generally use radius arms rather than slots. The axle movement is then an rc rather than a straight vertical movement. There is little effective difference for one axle, but it would be a different (impractical?) matter for coupled axles. The leaf springs above each journal are RA> linked at the ends to the next one over, so that all work together RA> equalizing the weight from one axle to the next, and the next after RA> that... The suspension on a steamer is much more complicated than RA> the drive rod system! Note also that the rotating mass of all the RA> drive rods, and half (exactly) of the main rods, can be counter- RA> ballanced in the wheels. This remaining "half" becomes a major problem, it could be as much as 1 tonne moving up and down at 4 times per second on one axle, which is a force to be reckoned with! If the driven axle is equalized with its neighbours, he "hammer blow force" is spread over all the equalized springs, not just the single driven axle spring. So a result of equalization is that the loco is less able to cope with with the unbalanced forces than a non-equalized loco. RA> [fully] sprung and equalized. The equalizing system adjusts RA> the spring tensions so that all axles receive their share of RA> the burden. Note that lead and trailing truck axles are RA> typicaly included, but at a lesser rated burden. (If all axles are equalized, the loco will flop forward or backwards to the limit of axle travel. Its been built! ;-) RA> I have no problem with the dynamics of the lead and trail bogies. The RA> springing of these could be as good as on a Bo Bo elec or de body. But why include unpowered carrying axles when the point of the exercise is to provide traction? But RA> I won't buy the principle that the main drive wheels of a conventional RA> steamer, are uniformly sharing the burden of the train on- the- move. RA> Because- > The drive wheels and axles have very high mass hence inertia, and RA> will more slowly respond to the ups and downs of the rail head. RA> * Not relative to the vertical forces involved; plus the track RA> doesn't go up & down that sharply. Rail doesn't bend that way. > The heavy side rods, pinned to each drive wheel, also restrain any RA> independence of vertical movement of any single axle as IT passes over RA> a valley or hill in the rail head. RA> * No; as I said, they're jointed near the middle crank(s). There is appreciable friction in the coupling rod bearings, evidenced y the reduction in friction achieved by fitting roller bearings in later years of steam. > The springs that serve each axle are much "harder" than those RA> of a conventional motor bogie. The bogie of today has multiple RA> springs and links. Not just one spring per axle box! RA> * No; if you consider the (change in force) per (unit traveled), RA> the steam loco's spring /system/ is MUCH softer than "bogies". This is offset by the much worse ratio of sprung/unsprung weight of the steamers wheels and rods. >And, I don't think there is much scope for designing springing >improvements into a set of 6, 8 or 10 couple drive wheelsets. RA> Not necessary. It's already quite soft & flexable. Greg.P. ... (hic) BWave 2.10 (hic) BWave 2.10 * My computer is drunk ... --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: Midi-Maze BBS...Christchurch...New Zealand... (3:770/355) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 147 RAILROAD FANS Ref: ECW00000 Date: 08/25/97 From: DARYL STOUT Time: 11:47pm \/To: WES LEATHEROCK (Read 1 times) Subj: Rail-fans???? WL> The _Sunday Oklahoman_, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, had WL>a column on this very subject on August 10. It was a column by WL>a _Boston Globe_ writer named Jeff Jacoby. (And Boston is a WL>place often held out as an example of where public transit WL>succeeds.) I saw a deal in the Arkansas Railroad Club newsletter (Little Rock) [from the Tulsa World, July 7 and August 10, 1997)...that efforts are underway to try to return Amtrak service to Oklahoma. One possibility is a route from St. Louis to Tulsa to Oklahoma City to Fort Worth...part of that from the southern route of the BNSF (Frisco) main line to be sold to Oklahoma from BNSF for $10 million. Should talks with Amtrak be successful, Tulsa-Oklahoma City service would begin by 2000. The cost of the segment would be $27 million capital, with a $12 million annual operating loss...but it costs only about 4 miles of interstate highway. Also, from the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette (Little Rock, Aug. 24, 1997); I noted where it has been nearly a year since the Union Pacific merger (or acquisition) of Southern Pacific...they have a glut of cars, and a lack of crews to operate them...railroad gridlock, as it were. Several engines are on a siding in North Little Rock, waiting to be converted for UP's use, or to be sold or scrapped. --- * OLX 1.53 * Attention to health is life's greatest hindrance. -Plato * PDQWK 2.5 #5 --- * Origin: NetComm BBS 303-730-7045 (1:104/603.0)