--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00101Date: 06/20/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 08:25pm \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 1 times) Subj: Linux Vs Windows Mon Jun 08 1998 11:32, Bill Wolff wrote to Jack Stein: BW> ROTFL! Tell that to my ISP who is running under UNIX. A few weeks BW> ago. As I got rudely disconnected and a phone call from my ISP BW> called me up very frazzled and demanded that I immediately stop BW> using Microsoft products on his servers! As he immediately BW> explained that my Microsoft products was locking up his UNIX BW> servers. He claimed he had nothing but problems with customers BW> using Microsoft software. And I think I know why. As he doesn't BW> really know hardly anything about Windows anyway. And he didn't BW> even know what a MOV movie file was. This guy calls himself an BW> engineer. What? What type of BS is this? What flavor of unix? Did you ask or did he even know? I might not be surprised if Ms make something that would cause other OS's to screwup or not function. You were probaly talking to someone who doesn't know what the hell they are doing. BW> I laughed and I told him that I have been using Microsoft software BW> on his servers for a long time now and his UNIX server problem is BW> coming from somewhere else. Apparently he must have found something BW> on his end, because everything has gone back to be working fine BW> again. I believe this guy hates Microsoft worse than you do, Jack. BW> Imagine, demanding his customers to not have the freedom of choice! I know if I had an ordeal with an ISP like that I would have already itched! Later, Matt (mbedynek@cisvcs.net) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00102Date: 06/20/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 08:47pm \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 1 times) Subj: Popular=Bad? Sun Jun 14 1998 15:04, Bill Wolff wrote to Jack Stein: BW> Odd, the DOJ never said Windows was the worst OS. Neither have any BW> computer software experts. Neither did Steve Jobs ever say Windows BW> was the worst OS. It seems to me Jack, your speaking in FUD again. Well if the DOJ did say windows was the worst then it would sure look like the antitrust ordeal was a personal dislike and that would defiantly throw that out the window! BW> The goal of the modern computer is not to try to get computer gurus BW> into using computers. As we have already been here since the 70's BW> and 80's. But the goal is to make computers simpler and easier to BW> use, so you don't need to know anything about computers to use BW> them. Windows does not do that. I work at a small business with 3 windows machines and thats what i spend my time doing...maintain them. "why has my computer locked up?", "why can't i print", ect... just the other day a system was locking up like crazy. god knows how long since it was defragged, but i ran defrag (which took a while) and that fixed the problem. BW> Jonathan Swift once said about 250 years ago: "When a true genius BW> appears in this world you may know him by the sign that the dunces BW> are all in confederacy against him." nice try :) BW> Me either, since you singlehandedly just proved that we do have a BW> choice. thats bhat people dont understand bill,... we do have a choice, but bill gates is tring to limit that choice. packaging a browser with his os to make us install it? i do not want IE on my system, i do not like it, but the more MS integrates it the less choice i have. they say IE is free, but you and i know that nothing is free, tanstaafl! the ie might be free, but that means the next version of windows will cost more to cover devolpment costs for ie :) same with things like iis! if i buy a computer i dont want windows to come with it... do i get a rebate? no, i still pay for that copy of windows, even if i dont want it! wow, thats some choice. you can tell me that ms doesnt have some contract saying that if you sell windows with a new computer you must sell it with every one. BW> Must have all went into one ear and out the other then. Since even BW> IBM has listened. oh did they? HB> I have several applications which won't run under Warp 4. Warp HB> 4 has different bugs as does W95 JS> Bugs can be fixed, OS design cannot. BW> Yes, so I'm told. That is why OS/2 can't be fixed. can be fixed? whats wrong with it? i have a system that never crashes on me, even without a fixpack? wow there must be something right. HB> - and since different people do different things, the Warp 4 HB> bugs may be more irritating. JS> What different things do people do? I suspect 99.9% of all JS> computing tasks are the same, and are done on every platform. BW> I suspect your wrong. As that only leaves us with 0.1% that are BW> different. That sounds far too illogical to be believable. HB> It is obvious that OS/2 is not "superior to MS products in HB> ALL areas". JS> It's not obvious to me. BW> It's obvious to the rest of the world. Odd no? whos the rest of the world? you mean that 50% or greater percent of users that probaly don't even know what an OS is? those that run windows 95 just because it comes with thier computer? Later, Matt (mbedynek@cisvcs.net) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00103Date: 06/20/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 09:03pm \/To: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED (Read 1 times) Subj: OS/2 vs Net Attacks? Sat Jun 20 1998 17:42, Torsten Balle Koefoed wrote to Bill Wolff: TBK> Replying to a message of Bill Wolff to Torsten Balle Koefoed: BW> Whatever happened to the Team OS/2 web site that got hacked? What was BW> the outcome of that one? TBK> I didn't know it was hacked, so I can't help you on that one. hacked is a very vague word. hacked as it nuked like winnuked/sspinged, or hacked as a password was compromised. there is a big difference between the two. one is understandable the other is unacceptible. Later, Matt (mbedynek@cisvcs.net) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00104Date: 06/16/98 From: MIKE RUSKAI Time: 11:00pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Popular=bad? Some senseless babbling from Jack Stein to Lynn Nash on 14 Jun 98 11:14:59 about Popular=bad?... JS> following up a message from Bill Wolff to Lynn Nash: BW> On (09 Jun 98) Lynn Nash wrote to Howard Brazee... BW> Hi Lynn... Well I think your greatly mistaken. JS> Oh no, the port hole from planet Goofball must have developed a leak! Yet the bolts seemed so tight... Mike Ruskai SA/AG #1106 thanny@home.com ... FBI: Federal Bureau of Intimidation --- Renegade v05-11 Exp * Origin: The Licking Factory, OS/2 in NJ! (732)815-3146 (1:107/634) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00105Date: 06/20/98 From: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED Time: 07:16pm \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 1 times) Subj: Flexibility Hi there Bill! Replying to a message of Bill Wolff to Jack Stein: BW> When did IBM fix OS/2? Actually, they do it all the time (via fixpaks), but it seems that your problem has derived from another problem, you can hardly blaim the OS itself for. BW> As I had no other option except to reboot BW> when a trap error popped up on my screen. A trap is definate crash in the OS/2 world. This is /very/ rare, and is always caused by either bad hardware (eg. a defect RAM module) or badly written device drivers. The latter case is possible because device drivers run in the same memory protection ring (ring 0) as the kernel. Yours etc. Torsten Balle Koefoed --- FleetStreet 1.22+ * Origin: Waiting for the punchline... (2:238/202.3) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00106Date: 06/20/98 From: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED Time: 07:30pm \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 1 times) Subj: NEW! Hi there Bill! Replying to a message of Bill Wolff to Jack Stein: BW> Hmm... I seem to recall that OS/2's PM was called a shell. The PMSHELL /is/ a graphical shell. The difference between the two OS'es in this context is, that Win95 (which is called an OS) is merely (with a some exeptions) a graphical shell on top of _another_ OS (DOS), where the PMSHELL is an actual part of OS/2. It's possible to boot OS/2 into textmode and start the PMSHELL from here, but in this case the system is running a bit differently since the command-line (which is also a shell) will take up the primary thread and the PMSHELL the secondary, whereas, normally, the PMSHELL will run in the primary thread. For short: In Win95, DOS is the kernel (to some extend) and Windows is the shell (and the kernel, to some extend). In OS/2, both the kernel and the shell are actual parts of the OS. At least, that's how I see it. Yours etc. Torsten Balle Koefoed --- FleetStreet 1.22+ * Origin: Waiting for the punchline... (2:238/202.3) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00107Date: 06/03/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 09:43am \/To: KENNETH ABRAMS (Read 1 times) Subj: Living Os'S And Almo HB>> It is odd that I naturally now think of CTL-C, CTL-X, & CTL-V to cut HB>> and paste, probably because I don't have to move my hands, or maybe KA> If I'm not mistaken, I believe that set of keystrokes was first standard KA> on Macs. true. matju --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00108Date: 06/03/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 09:50am \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Linux Vs Windows MB>> mea culpa. JS> You should say mea culpa after putting OS/2 on your most dangerous list JS> ahead of MSDOS, any version. This ain't no official list anyway, so just pretend it never existed. MB>> It's not just about protecting files, but also protecting MB>> processes... JS> Yes, and OS/2 is known world wide for protecting processes better than JS> DOS/WIN JS> anything. Are you now trying to say OS/2 is more dangerous than DOS/WIN JS> because it does not protect its processes as well? I don't remember in what context i said that, and it could have been 4:30 AM when i wrote the thing. MB>> oh well, bbsing is not considered a "mission-critical" (tm) MB>> operation... JS> Tell me, what operations does a BBS perform that is not standard on any JS> PC? I say, most sysops don't care if their sys crash. just hit the reset button and it runs again. I don't necessarily agree with them. JS> while your finishing up your term paper that MUST be in tommorrow, and JS> the JS> system crashes AND wipes out your term paper, that is mission critical. agreed. also, i used my parents' computer that runs win95, just because it had a scanner. I couldn't stop the TWAIN system from crashing. i just stopped scanning because it was mostly unusable. I will retry with my own scanner on my UNIX system soon. JS> DOS/WIN is NOT that system, it is designed poorly from the ground up. Well, DOS used to be well-designed to run as a single-task system on a 16k computer. But that's cause they copied all of it from CP/M, through Seattle Computing. JS> your computing other than availability of software at Kmart. Last time i "bought" software at kmart was pkzip 1.1 in... early '91 ? and since it's shareware, i only bought the disk, actually. 5 bucks. matju --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00109Date: 06/21/98 From: KEITH DOUGLAS Time: 02:08am \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: OS-DEBATE RULES 1/2 Hello All! The Moderators of this echo are: Moderator : Dave Raymond - 1:3603/210.12 Co-Moderator: Keith Douglas - 1:167/310 *****RULES***** 1) This conference is dedicated to discussing personal computer systems software such as Operating Systems and Graphical User interfaces. Some samples of suitable topics for discussion are, but are not limited to: Operating system marketing => Microsoft vs. IBM Feature comparisons => Cooperative multitasking vs preemptive multitasking Benchmarking of systems => Speed of DOS or Win16 apps on Windows, Win-OS/2, and NT Hardware issues involving => Multiprocessor cache coherency Operating Systems File systems => FAT vs. HPFS for space allocation Specific products => DOS, Windows, OS/2, DESQview, NT, Unix, Mach, AmigaDOS, MacOS, NeXTStep, etc. Operating systems that don't run on personal computers, such as VMS, OS/MVS, Unicos, etc., may be discussed for purposes of comparison, but if you are interested in in-depth discussions of minicomputer, mainframe, and supercomputer operating systems then it would probably be best to find a different conference, even though you won't be ostracized for such discussion in OS-DEBATE. 1a) Off topic messages are NOT permitted. This does NOT include a message initializing the conference, which is automatically generated by some BBS's. Those messages are acceptible, even if done manually, as long as they are NOT excessive, nor annoying. 2) Whether or not ANY message is annoying, or off topic, or excessive, is solely up to the judgement of the Moderators. 3) A THREE STRIKES system is in effect in this echo, for those who do NOT stay on topic, or violate any other rule. An offender will be given two warnings and then will be asked to leave, as follows: 3a) A warning via this echo. 3b) A warning via Netmail and possibly Echomail, that further offenses will lead to temporary, or permanent banishment from this echo. 3c) A netmail telling you that you ARE banned from the echo and for how long (possibly permanently, if the Moderator(s) feel that the offense calls for it). 4) If an offense by a poster in this echo is serious enough, Rule 3 may be skipped by the Moderator(s) and the offender will be notified by Netmail and possibly Echomail, that he/she is banned from the echo and for how long (possibly permanently or indefinitely). Also, a rude or offensive Netmail, or Echomail response to a "warning" Netmail, can be used to issue another warning. 5) If the offender disregards the Moderators request to stay out of the echo, the Moderator will have the feed to that Node (or Net, or Region, if necessary) cut, for as long as is deemed necessary. Remember, your actions may effect many others, by your disregard of the Moderators' request. The Moderator may elect to simply have the feed to that Node, Net, or Region cut, without warning, indefinitely, or permanently. 6) If you wish to discuss an issue further with a Moderator, please take it to netmail. You may netmail either Moderator, as one Moderator will netmail the other to notify him of the action(s) taken. Netmail can be routed and therefore will be of no cost to you, unless you wish to send it Crash to one of the Moderators. 6a) If you wish to discuss an off-topic issue with another user, please do so via Netmail. 6b) If you do not have Netmail access on the system that you post from, then check with your SysOp, to see if he will send the message for you, via Netmail. If not, then you will have to seek out a system that will allow you Netmail access. 7) All users of this echo will be polite and courteous to one another, at all times. 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Some of our communications with a user may be via netmail and therefore, invisible to YOU. 8a) If you initiate an attack on another user, then you are automatically wrong, because whether your insults are valid or not, the user will feel the need to respond and thus a flame-war gets started. 9) The Moderators reserve the right to add and post any additional rule(s), as they become necessary, or are deemed to be for the good of the echo, by the Moderators, at any time, without notice, even if to apply it/them to a current situation. 10) ANSI is NOT permitted in this echo. 11) Handles are NOT permitted in this echo, except by the Moderators, who may post under the handle of "Moderator", so that there will be no question by users of the echo who do NOT yet know who the Moderators are. 12) Excessive quoting is NOT permitted in this echo. Only quote the relevant portion of the message and only enough to maintain the thought of the thread. Do NOT quote Signatures, Tear Lines, nor Origin Lines, unless to show an error, as there is no need for them to be quoted in a message, in order to maintain the thought of the thread. Also, please change the subject line of a message, should the actual subject of the discussion change. Many folks scan messages by subject title and they may miss important information that you have posted, that would be beneficial to them, due to the "Subject Line" appearing to be old, or not related to what they are looking to discuss. Continued in next message..... Keith Douglas (1:167/310) - Co-Moderator FidoNet OS-DEBATE --- FMail/386 1.22 * Origin: The Chrono Zone (514)363-6298 Lasalle, QC, Canada (1:167/310) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00110Date: 06/21/98 From: KEITH DOUGLAS Time: 02:08am \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: OS-DEBATE RULES 2/2 Hello All! The following is the continuation from the previous message, of the rules of this echo..... *****RULES***** 13) If there is a suggestion that you have, that you feel will be of benefit to the echo, please notify one of the Moderators via Netmail and we will consider your suggestion. If your suggestion is deemed to be of benefit to the echo by the Moderators, we will implement the change and post a message to this effect, including the name of the person who made the suggestion, unless you request anonymity. 14) While signature lines are fine, they should not be excessive. 15) Artwork is NOT permitted, unless part of a signature line and then it must be within the guidelines of Rules 10 and 14. 16) Advertising is NOT allowed in this echo. This includes the advertising of other echos. Do NOT advertise, nor solicit sales in this echo. Do NOT request products from users of this echo. 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In the interests of preventing future long-winded, futile and non-sensical arguments over who should prove what, that evolve into dozens of posts that resolve nothing, this practice will no longer be acceptible. 20) Please be sure to say exactly what you mean. We don't wish to see debates over what was meant by a word, as has happened in the past. Your words can and should be taken at face value, unless otherwise indicated in the ORIGINAL post. Long debates over what is meant by a given word, will be considered to be OFF-TOPIC. It is up to the person posting the ORIGINAL message, to be clear about what it is that they're trying to say. This will help to avoid futile, long-winded arguments, that resolve nothing and merely waste bandwith. 21) The Moderator reserves the right to end a thread, when it has become NON-productive and declare a winner, if any. Keith Douglas (1:167/310) - Co-Moderator FidoNet OS-DEBATE --- FMail/386 1.22 * Origin: The Chrono Zone (514)363-6298 Lasalle, QC, Canada (1:167/310)