--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00000Date: 06/16/98 From: JUSTIN BAUSTERT Time: 10:43pm \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Linux BG> Are you guys still mad because MS decided that OS/2 sucked and BG> dropped it? (I'm just glad they took out all the OS/2 code in NT BG> before it was too late...) They didn't take out all the OS/2 code.. I'd include that as part of NT's saving grace.. JB --- Telegard/2 v3.09.b19/mL * Origin: Courier Central \ Cashion, OK \ 405.433.2665 (1:147/92) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00001Date: 06/16/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 05:04am \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: living os's and almo JS>Howard Brazee wrote in a message to Mathieu Bouchard: MB>Incidentally, on a Sun 118-key keyboard, like the one i'm using most of MB>the time, there are a few keys labeled: Cut, Copy, Paste, Help, Front, MB>Open, and they only serve that purpose. It's not like Ctrl-X Ctrl-C MB>Ctrl-V F1 Alt-Tab Alt-something. HB> That makes sense. Of course on the PC we have Pause, HB> Scroll-Lock, & SysReq keys which don't do anything anymore. HB> A help key would be better than F1. An Undo/Redo key would HB> be nice. HB> Word Perfect was written on a system which didn't have F1 HB> keys, and was ported from there. That's why help was F2. JS>Where did you get that info? I always thought, and still do, that WP JS>used funky keys because they didn't want to make it easy to JS>figure out how to use the app w/o the manual, and because they JS>were too dumb to know this was against the world standard of F1 JS>being the universal help key, and Esc being the standard method JS>of backing out of levels of screens. F3 was the help key btw, JS>and WP changed their style only after the competition was killing them. As I recall it, could be wrong, WordPerfect code was originally created as a dedicated word processing system that competed directly with Wang dedicated word processing systems. F1 was far from universal back then and was used for many things on computer terminals, like what eventually became the sys req key on PC's. F1 might be the last key one would pick, if they were used to programming on one of the many different brands of mainframes and mini-computers of the day. The PC changed all of that. Anyway as I heard the story, Wang controlled a substantial part of the dedicated word processing market. WordPerfect saw the PC growing in popularity and then ported their code to the PC looking for a new market. The keys remained the same because that is what their customers were used to. It then went on to take the PC word processing crown away from WordStar based mostly on superior technical support. I remember reading that the entire telephone system in Utah had to be modified to support the number of calls suddenly coming into the state because of Wordperfects new found success. The company then started running ad's showing their monthly phone bills as an indication of their support commitment. In the process they killed both Wordstar and Wang, although Wang as a brand name survived by cashing in on patent royalities. Dr. An Wang was pretty smart I guess and blamed everything on his son who had lead the company for a while. The royalities gave them the money to move into some other markets and make a minor comeback. I vaguely remember IBM using them as a poker chip for a while in some gambit. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * "Surrender!" You wish to surrender to me? Fine, I accept --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00002Date: 06/16/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 05:04am \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 1/2 JS>Lynn Nash wrote in a message to Howard Brazee: HB>Microsoft doesn't force people to buy its OS. HB>People aren't as stupid as you claim, and you don't need to take HB>care of them. LN> Well see, there you have it then, "Not taking care of them" LN> is exactly the point. Microsoft wants to take care of us LN> because they know best about where we should go today and LN> then takes steps to make sure that we have no choice in the LN> matter. "Who is number 1? You are number 6" JS>Really Lynn, people are totally stupid when it comes to computing. JS>Unless you are talking to a fanatic, or a nerd, you can't even JS>talk to people about computing, they don't have a clue, don't JS>speak the language, don't know a damn thing. Here, I disagree with your terminology but not the sentiment. People are ignorant. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. However ignorance is not curable in many cases because of lazyness. If something is not in their face then it does not dawn on them to look. A keypoint of Microsofts plan is to make sure that they never get the chance to look. If they allowed that to happen, then many people would say "wow I didn't know that I could get xyz OS instead of Windows". The bundling dynamic is the cause of all of this. IBM was made to stop it on their mainframes. Microsoft has not been stopped because it does it through what I now believe to be a cartel. The Standard Trust was part of the original kindling for the existing U.S. monopoly laws. The more you examine the facts, the more you start to see high tech similarities to what went on years ago. People bring up Linux. It seems to start to fit the role of the Texas wildcatters. LN> I notice that Ralph Nader just published documents to bring LN> this to a head. JS>Have mercy! Unsafe at any speed <-> Unsafe on any computer. :-) LN> It is apparent that what DOJ claimed to have done a couple of LN> years ago did not work. JS>It worked all right, the administration must have managed to scoop up a JS>ton of money from Gates to have the judges findings reversed. JS>What they were pretending to do didn't work, for sure, but it JS>wasn't supposed to work unless Gates didn't come thru with the JS>cash, IMO. You might have something here. After all most of the legal analysts claim that no case of that magnitude had ever had the prosecuting attorney appeal because the judge gave them too much of what they asked for. JS>All the stuff the Nader Raider got from retail stores is stupid, JS>everyone on earth knows this is the case, it's like doing a JS>study to see if living people are all breathing. That doesn't go along with your original statement that the consumer is stupid. The DOJ said that this stuff would stop. Don't you believe your government :=) I teach some night time basic adult computer literacy classes in the local community; internet, MS Office, Claris Works, etc.; the bog standard menu stuff. The lab has a dozen or so Win 95 systems and a dozen or so Power Mac's. They are set up to operate pretty much the same from the application viewpoint. It is amazing how many people, when they enter the class, think that the Mac's must be running windows 95 because Office 98, and Netscape is on them. I have stopped asking the question of why they would think that because the answer is always the same. "The computer salesman told me that I had to get windows if I want to run Word at home". They are even more surprised when they see Netscape, Pagemaker, Eudora, Claris, etc on both system types. Hopefully they leave, no longer ignorant. It is sad that many of them find their way to the classes feeling stupid because of the problems that they have with windows systems at home. "I must be doing something wrong because the system acts differently every time that I turn it on". Virtually no appliance or tool that a consumer uses outside of computers reacts differently every time that they turn it on; TV, automobile, refrigerator, air conditioner, washing machine, lawnmower etc. Quirks yes, outright differently, no. This is no reason to call them stupid, making sure that they have choices and options to investigate is the cure. We in fido are basically like a bunch of auto mechanics laughing at people that come in and say that my engine makes a funny noise because we know pretty much what to do about those funny noises. We also know where to go get special tool 1hc47d327 to fix that noise while others do not. The OS debate is the same. Us saying that we know where to get Linux, or freeBSD, or BeOS, or OS/2 or even DR-DOS, while others do not is the same situation. We all may find, unless something changes, that special tool 1hc47d327 is no longer made because the company went out of business due to bundling of tool 1xy198suc, which only works on Yugo's. We too, will then become truly stupid. JS>I don't see JS>any chance of people using anything but the worlds worst OS as JS>their own for at least the next 20 years. Linux is the only JS>hope after that, simply because it is Free, excellent code, and JS>not about to go away simply because few stores carry it, or JS>because some giant company is sleeping with another giant JS>company or two. Unfortunately unless Apple pulls it out, you are probably right. The industry will have come full circle, hobbyist's and people who are dictated too, by a mega corporation. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * My work is done, why wait?-Suicide note by George Eastman --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00003Date: 06/16/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 05:04am \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 1/ HB>In a message dated 06-09-98, Lynn Nash said to Howard Brazee: HB>Microsoft doesn't force people to buy its OS. LN>Howard I was following you until here. If the choice is intel LN>architecture and the choice is a package system and you are not a techy, LN>like most of us here, then you are forced to buy its OS. Now maybe it is LN>not Microsoft but it is a Microsoft agent forcing you to buy and you are LN>forced with a hidden tax. If your statement had been Microsoft doesn't LN>force people to 'USE' its OS then you would have had a better argument. HB>Well, it doesn't force ME to buy its OS. I know where to shop. What ya going to use when all the other OS's disappear because everyone is busy writing applications for the one that has 99.9 percent of the market. I suppose Linux might always be around because students need something to tinker with but there won't be much else. HB>Going after the contracts with the Gateways of the world for exclusive HB>contracts seems to be a valid thing for the government to do. Which are rapidly approaching 90 percents of PC's sold. HB>What doesn't make sense to me is to force Microsoft to offer a choice of HB>two web browsers with its OS. First, there are more than two HB>browsers out there, what's so great about a duopoly? I agree but don't forget that, that one was part of the standard practice of giving someone the lesser of two evils. What they really want is the option to turn I.E. off so that one can use whatever browser that they chose. HB>Although the best argument I have seen in the press is one which says: HB>"If IE is a part of the OS, only come out with upgrades when the OS HB>is upgraded". If upgrades come out at other times, then it is not HB>part of the OS. HB>Other features which used to be sold by third parties are now part of HB>the OS. Should we force Microsoft to also get its tape backup HB>program out of Windows? Those other features are from third parties; different issue. Microsoft does not want to be in the tape backup business. If Microsoft had never made I.E. and bundled Netscape, third party xyz, or what ever, I do not think that you would see anyone complain. Netscape is not the issue, stifling competition that Microsoft sees as dangerous is the issue. Netscape was considered dangerous because they had the potential to do just what Microsoft has done in Win-98 with I.E.. That is become the interface that the user see's all the time that they use the system. Help is becoming HTML which means that you need browser code to even access help. HB>I think the government is going after Microsoft for one reason: HB>It is big, successful, and successful DESPITE the government. HB>Politicians like power, it does not like success it can't take HB>credit for. That makes the assumption that polititions have real power. Big business has the real power in the U.S., Canada, EEC, and most countries that have or deal with the free enterprise system. The most successful politician is one who stays bought; with appologies to Alphonse Capone. HB>As a lifetime tobacco hater, I am also disgusted with HB>the government for its anti-tobacco switching. HB>Give the people the responsibility for their own actions, and trust HB>them! Hmmm, your last part does not interest me one way or the other. I would note that it seems contradictory. Government stay out the computer industry but government please do something about the tobacco industry. A vision about having your cake while asking for the serving knife to be passed comes to mind. Of course with the thin air and pollution up your way, I can see where tobacco might be a problem. Here in So. Cal we will probably all die from some other toxin anyway. Large truck fumes are the latest fad, we killed leaf blowers last year. I believe barbecues are scheduled for 2000 since closing the freeways was pushed back to 2005. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * Let him who is stoned cast the first sin. --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00004Date: 06/16/98 From: BADEN KUDRENECKY Time: 05:04am \/To: SIMON STONE (Read 0 times) Subj: Linux / Unix Responding to Simon Stone from 1998-06-14 concerning Linux / Unix, on Os-Debate Hi Simon: SS> Which one is FREEWARE ??? UNIX or LINUX (And yes I do know SS> there are a lot of other flavours, HP UNIX, DG UNIX SCO- SS> UNIX e.t.c) Both are/can be freeware. By GNU Public Licence, Linux will always be free. BSD unix is also free for the x86. Adios, Baden baden@unixg.ubc.ca http://www.lionsgate.com/home/baden Warped on a Hippo --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: T-Board - (604) 277-4574 (1:153/908) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00005Date: 06/16/98 From: TODD JOHNSON Time: 09:17pm \/To: BADEN KUDRENECKY (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 vs Linux vs NT/95 I know... and this letter goes out to all of those who think Win95 is a necessity in homes ... The same people who tell you that the common home user doesn't NEED OS/2, and that interface is "too much", and that its for people who know ALOT about computers, ARE THE SAME PEOPLE who demand that you go out and buy Microsoft Office 97 tyo write a book report, and Adobe Photoshop re-size, convert type, and paint pictures. They are they same people who demand you go out and buy bloated software... why? Because they are using it, and alot of other people are too, and you'll feel safe, warm, and fuzzy inside. Its been said that on average, users only use 5-20% of an office package's features... Are these people trying to tell the world that ONLY Windows 95 based office packages give you this ability, and all other packages on other platforms give you LESS than 5-20% of the options? OS/2 may not be the best platform for everyone, but neither is Win95. If you have some obsecure application that you require to work on alot, and its one of a kind, and only made for Win95, then use Windows 95, but if you do household work, reports, internet, research, etc., OS/2 does NOT offer less productivity in any way. Period. --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: OS/2 Shareware BBS, telnet://bbs.os2bbs.com (1:109/347) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00006Date: 06/17/98 From: SIMON STONE Time: 02:20pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Everyone Whats-up All! Thanks to those who replied about my question about LINUX / UNIX costs... Simon Stone Trust me with your life.... But not with your money or wife He Who Dares....Wins ! ... Subliminal Tagline: Send me your computer. --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: Death Gate BBS - Home Of COBRA Systems (2:440/624) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00007Date: 06/15/98 From: ALLAN ANDERSON Time: 05:38am \/To: TODD JOHNSON (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 vs Linux vs NT/95 At 12 Jun 98 21:53:48 Todd Johnson wrote to All: TJ> I think some people are getting caught up in the whole deal that TJ>Microsoft forces people to buy Win95, and that OS/2 is for everyone. TJ> TJ>First off, I build computers and sell them to various people... I TJ>offer Win95 and OS/2, and also Linux. However, I always lean towards TJ>OS/2 for most people. When I tell them all about it, especially TJ>since people have been pretty weary about Microsoft latley, they TJ>think OS/2 is a GREAT alternative, and are very curious! However, TJ>ONE thing stops them usually from using it. Windows 95 apps. That TJ>is why OS/2 is not suceeding in homes across the country, and now its TJ>becominga problem in the server market. Give OS/2 WIN32 TJ>capabilities, and it could turn around, and find a much greater niche TJ>than it had before.Secondly, Microsoft makes people feel warm and TJ>fuzzy inside. If they are buying a computer with an Intel chip, and TJ>getting Windows 95, they feel like they aremaking a "safe" choice... TJ>eveyrone else is using it, and its proven as being capable in the TJ>very least. And this is true. Combined with this, vendors are TJ>pressured to go by Microsoft's will (coughCOMPAQcough)... but when it TJ>comes down toit, they have a stronghold... a HUGE user base, and it TJ>will take an OS with 95%+ of Win95's major capabilities, and a host TJ>of NEW, USEFUL advantages in order to dethrone it..! I see a lot of sense in your arguments. I once used OS/2 exclusively. When I switched to Windows 95 it was a bit of a learning curve for me and my family. Shortly therafter everything was fine. I will probably not go back to OS/2 for the reasons that you stated about apps. I run NT 4.0 on my personal machine. I find it much faster than Win95, and much more stable. --- BWExplorer v1.0 * Origin: MACH2/VULCAN OS/2 SYSTEMS 1-403-489-4250 (1:342/61) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAU00008Date: 06/16/98 From: R. P. VERAA Time: 06:38pm \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 0 times) Subj: Flexibility In a message to David Bowerman, Bill Wolff wrote: DB> Odd. Netscape on Linux seems to display graphics rather well. Which DB> Internet browsers were you looking at? Lynx? BW> I don't know, someone in another echo was talking about how nice BW> Linux was and how well it handles web pages without graphics. So I BW> was curious if Linux had any graphic browsers at all. More'n likely she was ttalking about a browser called Lynx -- which is available for Linux, and also for DOS, OS/2, and other OSs. Cheers, R. http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/ * Origin: Birdsoft - North Miami (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAV00000Date: 06/23/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 08:38am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: DBAT Babble April Part 1 of 1 Ben Granville wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS> Same goes with you calling me dumb because I don't consider LINUX a JS> commercial product. You don't know what your talking about, nor seem to JS> care much if what you say is even close to accurate. LINUX is freeware, JS> and not permited to be sold by anyone, anywhere. BG> Bzzzt, wrong. Please check before you waste precious BG> bandwidth. Please read the license agreement. BG> There are several (ie Caldera, RedHat) BG> commercial Linux ports on many different architectures. BG> Just because it says Linux, doesn't mean it's free... Yes it does. RedHat, Slackware and so on may legally distribute Linux and charge for the media, shipping and handling, but may not legally charge for the Linux OS. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171)