--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00127Date: 06/12/98 From: HOWARD BRAZEE Time: 05:40am \/To: LYNN NASH (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=Bad? 1/ In a message dated 06-09-98, Lynn Nash said to Howard Brazee: HB>Microsoft doesn't force people to buy its OS. LN>Howard I was following you until here. If the choice is intel LN>architecture and the choice is a package system and you are not a techy, LN>like most of us here, then you are forced to buy its OS. Now maybe it is LN>not Microsoft but it is a Microsoft agent forcing you to buy and you are LN>forced with a hidden tax. If your statement had been Microsoft doesn't LN>force people to 'USE' its OS then you would have had a better argument. Well, it doesn't force ME to buy its OS. I know where to shop. Going after the contracts with the Gateways of the world for exclusive contracts seems to be a valid thing for the government to do. What doesn't make sense to me is to force Microsoft to offer a choice of two web browsers with its OS. First, there are more than two browsers out there, what's so great about a duopoly? Although the best argument I have seen in the press is one which says: "If E is a part of the OS, only come out with upgrades when the OS is upgraded". f upgrades come out at other times, then it is not part of the OS. Other features which used to be sold by third parties are now part of the OS. Should we force Microsoft to also get its tape backup program out of Windows? I think the government is going after Microsoft for one reason: It is big, successful, and successful DESPITE the government. Politicians like power, t does not like success it can't take credit for. As a lifetime tobacco hater, I am also disgusted with the government for its anti-tobacco switching. Give the people the responsibility for their own actions, and trust them! Howard Brazee, Lakewood CO - brazee@compuserve.com ___ * MR/2 * You have no idea... - Jeremy Irons --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: TeamOS/2-Denver * ISDN, x2, V90 * Denver (303)337-8701 (1:104/720) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00128Date: 06/14/98 From: SIMON STONE Time: 01:57pm \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Cadare's OPENDOS Whats-up Ben! 13 Jun 98 11:49, Ben Granville wrote to Simon Stone: SS>> Anyone got any opions on this ??? SS>> I've tried it out and it's very similar to DOS sept it's got a SS>> crap version of EDIT :) BG> I read before that this was free. Could someone let me know if so, BG> and what the url is? (and what minimum hw requirements it has... I BG> have an old PS/1 that I'd love to get on my network, and lanman just BG> ain't cutting it...) Erm I would give you a url for it but I can't even do that I my server's M/Board just died.... You never know the true worth of something until it's gone :) I'll see if I can't find one though... Simon Stone Trust me with your life.... But not with your money or wife He Who Dares....Wins ! ... Some days it just isn't worth chewing through the restraints. --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: Death Gate BBS - Home Of COBRA Systems (2:440/624) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00129Date: 06/14/98 From: SIMON STONE Time: 01:59pm \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Linux / Unix Whats-up All! I've never known this as I was never in charge of sales, just building s.... Which one is FREEWARE ??? UNIX or LINUX (And yes I do know there are a lot of other flavours, HP UNIX, DG UNIX SCO-UNIX e.t.c) Simon Stone Trust me with your life.... But not with your money or wife He Who Dares....Wins ! ... 486 to 286 conversion kit now available. Call Micro$oft. --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: Death Gate BBS - Home Of COBRA Systems (2:440/624) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00130Date: 06/14/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 11:49am \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 1/2 BW>Hi Lynn... Well I think your greatly mistaken. And there are a few BW>things about the market that you apparently didn't know about. As BW>there was a number of OEM that didn't put Windows on their systems BW>and they just couldn't compete. The problem? Computers without BW>Windows doesn't sell too well. It's just that simple. Well I see you have returned. How am I mistaken Bill, I posted a public report, am I mistaken for posting the report? You seem to be in a minority here since your own states attorney general sees a problem. Well, some of my associates would argue that there are not many things about the market that I don't know. I disagree with them. One of the "not many things" was that the market was still operating in violation of the original goals of the DOJ. In fact it has actually become worse since the settlement. I suspect that the final outcome may be the elimination of bundling. If a company controls this much of a basic market or affects the economy then it tends to become regulated as a utility or in some countries simply nationalized. I am opposed to both of those options. Unbundling so that the consumer must make a conscious choice would be the lesser evil. Microsoft is treading on soft ground and is probably finally starting to realize it. They would have been far smarter to have encouraged something like OS/2 to claim a 20 percent share just so they could stay out of trouble. Of course I am sure that he never expected IBM to be so inept and timid at the top. Microsoft direction is ruled with a single will and not with squabbles by siblings trying to protect turf in the middle of downsizings. As others are now starting to realize, the so called battle was never about win 3.1/Win 95 and OS/2 it was about NT and OS/2. That is where Microsoft wanted to go yesterday, today, and tomorrow as they issue Win98 as a sort of nicotine patch for smokers. Win 95 was always intended to convince users that they had to spend money on the hardware (and dump DOS). Notice how the applications were slowly bloated up, forcing system upgrades, until the average system became capable of running NT. Letting Linux prosper in the home market was never a problem for them. The subset of users it would appeal to would never be a real threat. OS/2 on the other hand was a horse of a different color, with a big powerful company behind it. Had BeOS on intel been around 5 years ago, it more than likely would have been attacked with the same vigor. Apple was until Gates realized that he had gone too far and didn't put the breaks on quite in time. Propping up Apple while at the same time trying to cannibalize its markets was too little, too late. This is because Microsoft is only half of the Wintel formula and Apple is not Intel based. The Intel architecture success over its competition is something that they can not micro-manage as easily. BW>And if there was a big market for computers without Windows, I'd be BW>in the business today making as many as I could sell. Unfortunately, BW>there isn't enough of a market to keep my company going. So I don't BW>bother. No you wouldn't, if your market is based on price, which the commodity PC market is. Brand name means nothing to most purchasers, only the absolute end function does. Price is king which means margins are narrow. You need dollars to buck a trend. This is why we have things like hardware vendors making more and more devices to tie to parallel ports; disk drives, scanners etc and the winmodem/winprinter, even though these products are inferior to other devices. BW>Now say, you called up these same OEM companies and asked if you can BW>buy a computer without a power cord. As I got tons of those and I BW>don't need any more of them. Unfortunately, I bet they won't sell me BW>a computer without a power cable without a price break. Although it BW>doesn't have to be a power cable either. As there are lots of other BW>things you can pick from too. Like buying a computer without a CPU. BW>Or without a HD. Or even without a CD-ROM drive. Or a keyboard. As BW>many of them just won't sell you one without many of these things. All bad analogies. First the power cord does not require that you enter into a legal agreement like a windows license does, nor does it include verbiage that says that you can return just that part if this legal agreement is unacceptable. You return the power cord for a duplicate. BW>And it's not only computers either. It's like that all over. Some BW>places you can't buy Coke, because the supplier has made a deal with BW>Pepsi. Or sometimes you can't buy Pepsi, because they made a deal BW>with Coke. You don't follow the business news much do you. This is another bad analogy since Coke and Pepsi is also embroiled with the government over just such practices. BW>It's the old supply and demand working here Lynn. The masses want BW>Windows. And if the masses didn't, then only a few would even bother BW>making deals with Microsoft for buying Windows at incredibly cheap BW>prices or none at all. The masses don't want windows, they want the applications that only run on windows. Those applications are coded that way because 95 percent of the PC market now ships their systems with windows. Even a fireman that knows nothing about computers can explain to you how this model works and the mass consumer hasn't much to do with it. The windows model is the same physical model used by fire. Do a search on "what is fire" and look at the triad components. You can overlay the components with the wintel model and they will look like mirrors of themselves. >>> David Chun, a student from UCLA, called a dozen PC >>> manufacturers asking if he could buy a PC without buying >>> Microsoft Windows. None would. This is his report. jl BW>That a lie right there. Some will. As one of them in your example ^^^^ Unfortunate that you would return and the first posts from you still are the same. BW>would if you had made it worth their while. As they said if you buy BW>5, then they would talk about it. See Lynn, how small the non- BW>Windows market is? If you wanted something different, then YOU, not So then you are agreeing that the study is correct. Buying 5 computers takes you out of the consumer range and in some places could put you in the reseller range. IBM for years would do just about anything for you if you bought what they called a full pallet of something. That took you out of the consumer area in their books and put you in the bid special order range for selling to vendors. If that company was in So. Cal., with the guy being from UCLA I suspect it was, anything can be done if the order is 5 up including selling it without the power cord that you mentioned above. California is the OEM clone capitol, we have major Pacific Rim ship ports for the U.S. Unfortunately we also seem to be headed for the CD ROM clone (pirate) capitol also. More and more raids are being reported including one major accidental one recently. :-( BW>them have to create a market for it. That's how it works. As they BW>already have a market of their own, which caters to the masses. And BW>all you have to do is to find four people that doesn't want Windows BW>on their new system. And you got yourself a computer without BW>Windows. Easy eh? No, you have to find four people that want the same "exact" system as you do and then they would talk about it, NO Guarantee that they will. One of the tenets of monopolistic practices is to make it difficult to do business in the accepted normal way. I would say that this qualifies and therefore the argument is irrelevant. The premise was that only "one" system was to be purchased. LN> Well see, there you have it then, "Not taking care of them" is LN> exactly the point. Microsoft wants to take care of us because LN> they know best about where we should go today and then takes LN> steps to make sure that we have no choice in the matter. "Who LN> is number 1? You are number 6" >>> Continued to next message * SLMR 2.1a * _ _ _ _ _ _ ////|||||||||||||| <-- domino effect at work --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00131Date: 06/14/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 11:49am \/To: BILL WOLFF (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message BW>Nope, that has never been true. We always had a choice. I could BW>always find an OEM that will sell me a computer without selling me BW>Windows. Most all of us in FIDO can but we are too small in number to even be called a minority. We are not talking about 'We', we are talking about the masses which spend most all of the money and drive the market. I hope that you are not going to use that stale argument that monopoly equals 100 percent. Monopolistic practices have been known to occur at even 50 percent or less of market share. Note the current MCI, Worldcom merger deal which is being opposed unless modified by the U.S. and Europe. Threat of potential unhealthy monopolistic concerns were raised. BW>And even if you wanted a computer from an OEM that won't BW>sell you a computer without Windows, then cough up the extra $15 and BW>then buy another OS. It's no big deal Lynn. IBM said $199 to buy the other OS, no one offered any of the other OS'es mentioned, read it again. Some form of Linux would be the only thing meeting your $15, buy it on the side, figure. This is not an OS/2 versus windows issue so don't make it one. What you miss here, and the reason that your reply falls into a strawman argument is that these vendors represent over 80 percent and maybe close to 90 percent of the PC's sold. I believe that the top 10 PC vendors are said to control 80 percent of the retail Intel architecture PC market. He called 9 of the 10 and threw in 3 smaller vendors for comparison. The guy even asked for non-intel chips to see if that made any difference. BW>I wonder how much those BW>power cords adds to the price of the computer which I never wanted? You need a power cord to run your system and there are not any substitutes even with direct wiring. You don't need windows and there are substitutes. If it is an IBM system you could program it with just ROM Basic. BW>Microsoft has never had any control over your use of DEL, FORMAT, or BW>whatever. As always, the end user always had a choice since day one. I should not have to pay a tax for that privilege unless you believe that Microsoft gives away windows. It has a value which you are forced to pay for. Even if it is $15, which is not the case, BW>By the way, Microsoft has never operated that way. That's what those BW>other companies had done, for example, Digital Research. As Gary BW>Kildall didn't care that most people didn't like doing the copying BW>backwards from the way they wanted to do it. His belief was that any BW>halfway intelligent person could master PIP. Of course, he was BW>right, but the difference between Gary Kildall's DR and Bill Gates' BW>Microsoft, was attitude. As Bill Gates had let you do it the way you BW>wanted to. And this difference in attitude was worth 20 million BW>dollars back then and in abundance more today. Maybe the way you wanted to, not the way I wanted to. You seem to have a belief that one way is the right way, therefore you see nothing wrong with what is happening. Compliancy always sets in when the given way is close to one's chosen way. Compliancy implies that good enough, is good enough. The logo of compliancy is the "Round Tuit". This is the thing that Bill Gates understands fully. I prefer choice no matter who is in lead position. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * _ _ _ _ _ _ ////|||||||||||||| <-- domino effect at work --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00132Date: 06/14/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:25am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: DBAT Babble April Part 1 of 1 Ben Granville wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS> JS> Outbound Babble % K Avg K | Incoming Babble % JS> JS> =======================================|============================ JS> JS> 22 JACK STEIN 15.3% 55k 2.5 | 33 ABRAM HINDLE 22.9% JS> BG> Wow Jack, you wasted 55k of bandwidth telling me how bad JS> BG> Windows is. Aren't you so proud? JS> I believe only 4 of those messages were to you Ben, so don't flatter JS> yourself. JS> Your arguments are typical of MS lovers though, generally based solidly n JS> mis-information and hype, and your above statement clearly conforms with JS> the typical MS base of supporters modus operandi. BG> And your agruments are that of a typical MS basher. It's BG> nice to see you finally admit it. My arguments are not based in hype. Consider only 4 of 22 message I posted were to you, and then you accuse me of wasting all 55k of those message were to you. You're right though, my messages are typical MS basher messages, based on fact, not BS. Same goes with you calling me dumb because I don't consider LINUX a commercial product. You don't know what your talking about, nor seem to care much if what you say is even close to accurate. LINUX is freeware, and not permited to be sold by anyone, anywhere. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00133Date: 06/14/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:37am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS's Ben Granville wrote in a message to Abram Hindle: AH> other things but I have no faith or trust in someone who gives no data nd AH> has no real arguement. Many of your messages are you replying and warping AH> facts into untruths. Stop the twisting. AH> The truth may hurt but it's there. BG> Thank you for spelling that out for me. I have been asking BG> for 'hard data' for weeks and only one person has given me BG> real-world problems with MS Windows. Others, yourself BG> included, keep saying it's crap, it doesn't work, or it's BG> screwy without giving an ounce of proof to show for it. So, BG> until you give me something, I will play your same immature BG> games. Win95 has an inferior file system, it's memory system sucks, and it's interface is not fully object oriented. What's left? Suppose you explain how WIN is superior in any of these areas. We've gone though this endlessly in this area over the years, so either read some of the back messages in the base, or post what you think makes WIN superior in any area necessary for multi-tasking in todays arena. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00134Date: 06/14/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:44am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 vs Net Attacks? Ben Granville wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS> Most WIN users today don't know what a file is, let alone how to write a JS> virus. MOST WIN users think AOL IS the internet, and know nothing more JS> than how to access AOL, period. To INTENTIONALLY choose to run WIN, one JS> must be either totally computer illiterate, or a CROOK, making tons of JS> money off the computer illiterates dumb enough to choose to run WIN. BG> Wow, nice MS bash. Thanks, it's just how it is. BG> I 'intentionally' run Windows, and many other OS's, and know BG> what a file it, I don't personally care to know how to write BG> a virus, I don't think AOL is the internet, and I can speak BG> and read just fine so I don't think I am dumb or illiterate. So you don't fit into the "most" part of what was said. That changes nothing as far as most WIN users being computer illiterate. Being able to "speak and read" has nothing to do with being "computer" illiterate. BG> Please, keep to the topic at hand, not just wasting BG> bandwidth with your adolescent babbling... Please stick it in your ear. That was the topic at hand, if you didn't like it, don't reply, I don't need your approval to post anything I want. In fact, I don't think I need anyones approval, the highjacker moderator seems absent. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00135Date: 06/14/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:52am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Flexibility Ben Granville wrote in a message to Abram Hindle: AH> I'm just sick of OS's not living up to what OS's should do! A la crash AH> protection... BG> Hah, crash protection? The only way to make _ANY_ OS crash BG> proof is to leave the computer turned off... Hah, he said crash "protection", not crash "proof"! There are plenty of ways to provide crash "protection" to a multi-tasking OS, and WIN does not implement them. Typical MS fool twisting "crash protection" into "crash proof". It is one of the 3 main areas where MS products are abysmal, and it figures you would twist the truth (lie) yet again, to support your OS. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00136Date: 06/14/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:59am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 vs Net Attacks? Ben Granville wrote in a message to Jack Stein: BG> On Sat 6-Jun-1998 7:54a, Jack Stein said to Matt Bedynek: JS> Most WIN users today don't know what a file is, let alone how to write a JS> virus. MOST WIN users think AOL IS the internet, and know nothing more JS> than how to access AOL, period. To INTENTIONALLY choose to run WIN, one JS> must be either totally computer illiterate, or a CROOK, making tons of JS> money off the computer illiterates dumb enough to choose to run WIN. BG> And all this from a Compuserv user. Really? You just make up stuff for the hell of it, don't you? BG> Man, you should look in the mirror more often. Man, I'm looking in the mirror, and I see no Compuserve user anywhere in sight. Not that there is anything wrong with Compuserve or AOL for that matter, I never said there was either, just that most WIN users think IT is the internet, ie, they are stupid when it comes to anything related to computing, and this knowledge void is clearly why they run WIN, happlessly. A perfect market for a monoply market for the worlds worst OS. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 56k Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171)