--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00090Date: 06/06/98 From: HOWARD BRAZEE Time: 07:26am \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=Bad? 2/ JS>of the judges findings show clearly how corrupt our JS>government is, and bring into focus how a huge market can JS>be bought through corruption instead of earned through JS>excellence. The law is an ass. It was when it brought charges against IBM, and it still is. It is a matter of power, politicians love power, and they don't like the fact that they don't control the wealth that the computer industry created. I trust the people way before I trust the government to make reasonable decisions about computer operating systems! JS>The only winners in this whole garbage can of criminal JS>behavior are those that are still making a killing on the JS>consumers backs, the consumer has been screwed in a big JS>way, and the beauty is most of them don't even know it. And the lawyers and politicians who don't trust the people. Currently I have the choice to pick the OS I prefer. I have the ability to use which ever other OS which I need. Nothing Microsoft has done has stopped me from thinking nor looking at my real needs. Don't put the government in the business of telling me what I need. When they have the power to enforce my choices, they won't stop there. Howard Brazee, Lakewood CO - brazee@compuserve.com ___ * MR/2 * Jesus Saves! But Gretzky scores on the rebound... --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: TeamOS/2-Denver * ISDN, x2, V90 * Denver (303)337-8701 (1:104/720) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00091Date: 06/07/98 From: DENIS TONN Time: 03:33pm \/To: DIRK CAP (Read 0 times) Subj: Linux Original from Dirk Cap to Denis Tonn on 06-01-1998 Original Subject: Linux --------------------------------------- DT> And you don't have your "facts" right either. There is still OS/2 DT> code (OS/2 1.x code) in NT. DC> So it is..... Maybe some parts of the kernelcode or inside DC> some dll's there is OS/2 code. Also, it can be loaded as a DC> subsystem to run OS/2 2.x textmode programs inside a DC> (DOS) OS/2 box. I haven't tested it yet, but it seems to work. Not quite. It will run OS/2 1.x textmode apps. It won't run *ANY* 2.0 apps - textmode or GUI. There are still a lot of OS/2 1.x apps out there, and this is all that MS ever released, so it is not surporising that they kept 1.x code (and support) in NT. The support of OS/2 apps does not run "in a box" like Dos stuff does. OS/2 1.x apps are full protect mode apps, abet 16 bit apps. The support in NT consists of DLLs to support "native" function calls, frequently just "mapping" the OS/2 1.x API calls to Win32 calls. Note that NT does not support any OS/2 drivers. There was an add on that can be obtained from MS to add support for OS/2 1.x PM calls to NT 3.51, allowing 1.x GUI apps to run also. There is no support for OS/2 32 bit apps (2.x or higher) in any form (the "mapping" becomes much more difficult). Denis All opinions are my very own, IBM has no claim upon them . . . --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: T-Board - (604) 277-4574 (1:153/908) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00092Date: 06/08/98 From: NIGEL STUKE Time: 11:24pm \/To: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 vs Net Attacks? NesTea is a modified Teardrop. It is not made for use against windows, or OS/2. It's main use it to crash Linux 2.* ...it also crashes some windows boxes. --- ProBoard v2.12 [Reg] * Origin: i have no idea bbs (1:141/1191) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00093Date: 06/09/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 04:57pm \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 1/2 HB>Microsoft doesn't force people to buy its OS. Howard I was following you until here. If the choice is intel architecture and the choice is a package system and you are not a techy, like most of us here, then you are forced to buy its OS. Now maybe it is not Microsoft but it is a Microsoft agent forcing you to buy and you are forced with a hidden tax. If your statement had been Microsoft doesn't force people to 'USE' its OS then you would have had a better argument. HB>People aren't as stupid as you claim, and you don't need to take HB>care of them. Well see, there you have it then, "Not taking care of them" is exactly the point. Microsoft wants to take care of us because they know best about where we should go today and then takes steps to make sure that we have no choice in the matter. "Who is number 1? You are number 6" I notice that Ralph Nader just published documents to bring this to a head. A intern of his on spring break from UCLA just researched this and I would not be surprised to see the DOJ use it verbatim. JL in the first paragraph below is J. Love, Naders associate in Washington D.C. It is apparent that what DOJ claimed to have done a couple of years ago did not work. ********* Required to buy Microsoft Windows Info-Policy-Notes | News from Consumer Project on Technology June 3, 1998 David Chun, a student from UCLA, called a dozen PC manufacturers asking if he could buy a PC without buying Microsoft Windows. None would. This is his report. jl Exclusive Agreements with PC Manufacturers and Microsoft regarding Operating System software. My name is David Chun. I am an undergraduate student at UCLA, where I am in the UCLA Center for American Public Policy and Politics. I am working this spring as an intern at the Consumer Project on Technology. On May 25, 1998 through June 3, 1998, I called 12 computer manufacturers, known in the industry as original equipment manufactures (OEMs), attempting to buy computers without a Microsoft Windows operating systems. These included major brand OEMs Gateway2000, Dell, Micron, IBM, Packard Bell, Hewlett Packard, Toshiba, NEC and Sony, plus three less known brands, Unicent, Umax and Quantex. In each case I told the salespersons that I wanted to purchase a Pentium computer, and I asked the following questions: ---------------begin questions---------- 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? 3. If not, why? 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? ---------------end questions---------- OEMs were asked if they would offer such systems as Linux, FreeBSD, BeOS, Rhaposdy or IBM's OS2. Since no OEM would sell a PC with another operating system, I asked if they would sell a PC "naked," that is, the computer without any OS. In these conversations, I said I was interested in buying a single computer for personal use. Of the twelve OEMs contacted, none would sell a computer without Microsoft Windows, and none would offer a discount if I returned Windows and asked for a refund. IBM owns OS2, but required consumers to by a Microsoft Windows license, even if the consumer was also purchasing an OS2 license at the same time. [Gateway 2000 owns the rights to the Amiga OS, and when I asked about the availability of the Amiga OS, I was told that it might be available in November 1998.] Several OEMs said their contract with Microsoft required that they sell Windows with each computer. However, some OEMs indicated that if I would place a much larger order, it might be possible to buy PCs without an OS or with a different OS. But this would not be the case for smaller orders. The following are notes from my calls: Date: 5/25/98 Vendor: SONY Salesman: Cam What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No, we do not. The only operating systems we offer are Windows 95 and Windows NT 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? No, you cannot. We do not sell computers without an operating system. You cannot buy computers without a Microsoft Windows O/S. 3. If not, why? SONY cannot alter or customize O/S. We are under contract with Microsoft. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, there is no refund if you do not want Windows 95. Date: 6/3/98 Vendor: DELL Salesman: Ariel What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? Only Windows 95 and Windows NT 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? No, only with a Microsoft OS. 3. If not, why? I believe we have a contract with Microsoft. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No. There is no refund if you refuse to sign the Windows license and return the Windows software. Date: 5/25/98 Vendor: NEC Salesman: Tom What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No, we only offer Microsoft products. We don't offer any dual boot systems, either. 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? No, you cannot. 3. If not, why? Because, when NEC tests computers they check Windows 95 to ee if there is anything wrong with the computer. We don't have contracts with other O/S manufacturers. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, we don't give refunds on Windows' product that come with the computer. Date: 5/25/98 Vendor: MICRON Salesman: Sean What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? Only Windows 95 and NT, we don't have other O/S. 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? No, cannot buy computer without Windows product. Can't sell computer without any OS either. 3. If not, why? Micron is under contract with Microsoft. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, this is not allowed. Windows comes with the computer and not as a option. Date: 5/25/98 Vendor: GATEWAY 2000 Salesman: Jeremy What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No, we don't have LINUX, but you could get Windows NT if you pay $99. [Note, in a subsequent call, I was told that Gateway 2000 would release a new version of the Amiga software in November 1998]. 2. Can I buy computers, any models, without buying Windows? No, we can't do it because we only offer computers with Windows O/S. 3. If not, why? We are under contract with Microsoft, can't offer any other O/S. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, we can't do that either. Windows is not an option, therefore, you can't return it for a refund. >>> Continued to next message * SLMR 2.1a * Mental Backup in Progress-Do Not Disturb!(snore) --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00094Date: 06/09/98 From: LYNN NASH Time: 04:57pm \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Popular=bad? 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message Date: 6/3/98 Vendor: Unicent Salesman: Jamie What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? We offer Windows 95 or Window NT. If you were going to order a whole network, we would consider a different OS, but certainly not for a single computer. 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No. 3. If not, why? We have a contract with Microsoft. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No. Even if you refuse to sign the Windows license and return the software, you must pay for it. However, if you buy 5 or more computers, we might be able to do something. Date: 5/28/98 Vendor: Umax Salesman: No name What I tried to buy: 233 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? Just Windows 95. 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No, we don't offer computers without an OS. 3. If not, why? Everything is pre-configured and doesn't change. We can't customize for operating systems. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, Windows 95 is part of the package and we just don't offer refunds on the Windows O/S that comes with the computer. Date: 5/28/98 Vendor: Quantex Salesman: Frank What I tried to buy: 233 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No, we don't. Only Windows 95 or Windows NT 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No, you can't. we don't offer computers naked (without an OS) either. 3. If not, why? In order to test the computer before we ship it out we need a O/S system to see if the computers run. We put Windows O/S in to check it out. We don't take it back out. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, we don't offer any refunds for the O/S that comes with the computer. Date: June 3, 1998 Vendor: IBM Salesman: Janet What I tried to buy: Aptiva 266 AMD desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No, we only sell the computer with Windows 95. You can buy a copy of OS2, for $199, but the computer comes with Windows 95 in any case, even if you are buying OS2. 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No, you must buy Microsoft Windows 95. You can buy a copy of OS2, but this is in addition to Windows 95, not as a substitute. Except, however, if you are a big corporate account, and then you could try to negotiate a purchase without buying Microsoft Windows. 3. If not, why? That's just the way it is. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, we don't give refunds on Windows 95, even if you don't want it or don't use it. It comes pre-installed as part of the computer, and you have to pay for it. Date: 5/28/98 Vendor: COMP USA PC Salesman: William What I tried to buy: 233 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No company does. This the standard for computers at any other company. 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No, we don't offer other computers without Windows. We don't sell naked computers. 3. If not, why? Anything above and beyond Windows O/S is personal and would have to be the owner's decision to customize his own computer after he purchases it. It is against our policy. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No, you cannot. We don't offer any refunds on OEM loads. June 3, 1998 Vendor: Packard Bell Salesman: Jill, with PC Factory Outlet. What I tried to buy: 266 Pentium II, desktop 1. Do you offer any other operating systems? No we don't. We don't. All we have is Windows 95, that is the only one. 2. Can I buy a computer, any model, without buying Windows? No. Windows 95 has to be included. 3. If not, why? We don't specify systems to customers needs. 4. Can I return Windows and get a refund? No. If you refuse to sign the Windows license, and return the software, you still have to pay for the Windows license. David Chun June 3, 1998 saved@ucla.edu Phone until June 16, 1998 Wk: 202.387.8030, Hm 703.522.9600, ext 417 *************** So we now have a independent survey from a recognizable consumer advocate organization even if the work was done by a intern. The kid got lucky. His name will probably be recognized by more lawyers than he would have hoped for. How can it be justified that a company becomes insanely wealthy selling a product that has zero value according to its distributors. It is supposedly worth, what, 90 bucks in a store and 180 bucks with a new freshness date. If what is inside has zero value then Microsoft is getting rich by selling us blue cardboard boxes. These companies would all lead a non-technical person to believe that their computer will not work or could fail if they had something other than windows on it. In that case why would they even want to try to purchase something else. Probably makes as much sense to most people as putting methane in their gasoline powered car. I suppose I subconsciously knew it but denied it; Microsoft has gone over the top as monopolies go. Standardization or not, I do not see this as healthy. Microsoft is up there with the diamond and oil cartels except they probably have less control over their respective industries. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * Mental Backup in Progress-Do Not Disturb!(snore) --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00095Date: 06/10/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 01:07am \/To: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 vs Net Attacks? Sat Jun 06 1998 20:04, Torsten Balle Koefoed wrote to Matt Bedynek: TBK> I don't know either what it does, but my comment was ment as a TBK> joke, since NesTea is also a drink. well, they give these attacks strange names these days, when i hear of a new one i am harly suprised. Later, Matt (mbedynek@hotmail.com) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: FAS00096Date: 06/09/98 From: TORSTEN BALLE KOEFOED Time: 07:42pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Flexibility Hi there Abram! Replying to a message of Abram Hindle to All: AH> That's one way linux will win the war. What war? Yours etc. Torsten Balle Koefoed --- FleetStreet 1.22+ * Origin: Waiting for the punchline... (2:238/202.3)