--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00102Date: 04/28/98 From: ABRAM HINDLE Time: 06:39pm \/To: LYNN NASH (Read 0 times) Subj: Os/2 dead debate LN> I have said this before, how would you tell that it is an OS/2 server LN> since over half of the Web servers are some form of Apache. Apache for LN> OS/2 was popular enough that it has been rolled into the normal Apache LN> codebase. So the server would just say Apache, now what. Telnet to port 80 on a server smash a few keys it'll kick you off telling you what server and often times what it's run on. ABeZ --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: T-Shirts 'N Genes BBS Duncan Canada (250) 748-3408 (1:340/204) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00103Date: 04/28/98 From: ABRAM HINDLE Time: 06:40pm \/To: BAS HEIJERMANS (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 Dead debate AH> E. Lack of information on other things.... AH> Um so drop the OS/2 IS DEAD thing it's an opinion debate and AH> DEAD was THE WRONG WORD.. Being Squashed is better.. AH> ABeZ BH> Gee, after many quet months of debating, there is BH> suddently another MS supporter telling us OS/2 is dead. BH> I'm sure you are working for MS and are payed to give us this crap! BH> It starts every time there is a new MS anouncement, we BH> are getting sick and tired from people like you. Yah I work for MS when I own 3 computers with linux installed while I write to you in Debian, in minicom on my Linux BBS :). PLEASE don't relate MS to me in any way except for playing the odd game. Home market for OS/2? Gone... Server Market? Still kicking and screaming... Long live the Penguin! ABeZ --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: T-Shirts 'N Genes BBS Duncan Canada (250) 748-3408 (1:340/204) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00104Date: 04/30/98 From: KENNETH ABRAMS Time: 12:20am \/To: BEN GRANVILLE (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 Dead debate Hello Ben! 25 Apr 98 09:57, Ben Granville wrote to Kenneth Abrams: BG> You've never used BeOS then. If you like Mac's then you'd like this BG> garbage. Nope, never used BeOS, never seen it. And, I don't particularly like Mac's, at least, not based on my experiences with the one at work. Of the os's I have used, OS/2 Warp is still my preference. BG> Yes, and OS/2 is much better than Win95, right? Yes. Definitely. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. As long as you rank reliability ahead of glitz. BG> Wow, 4 people, that's absolutely an amazing figure. You should send BG> this over to IBM and maybe they'll start supporting OS/2 again. Yep, go right ahead and ignore the reference I also made to NationsBank's recent conversion. My point being, from people I know via Fido to corporations as large as NationsBank, conversions to OS/2 *are* happening. BG> Or, if they had a hardware device that wasn't supported in OS/2 (you BG> know somthing non-essential like a HD, CD, or sound card...) Buy a clue. Care to name a HD that's not supported by OS/2? Or a decent CD that's not? My SB32 seems to be working rather nicely as well. Kenneth (kabrams@erols.com) --- GoldED/2 2.50+ * Origin: Lexington Park, Maryland (1:109/921.67) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00105Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:06pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Living OS's and almost dead ones... On Sun 26-Apr-1998 9:21a, Jack Stein said to Ben Granville: JS> Ben Granville wrote in a message to Bas Heijermans: JS> BG> On Thu 16-Apr-1998 4:49a, Bas Heijermans said to Abram JS> BG> Hindle: JS> BH> Abram Hindle made noise to All: JS> BH> You must be joking, OS/2 is more alive than ever before. JS> BH> First of all it's not old, the last version is from november'95 (gee JS> BH> wasn't that the same date as Win'95????, must be old as well than!:-) JS> BG> The latest version of Win95 is from 98. Is there an OS/2 JS> BG> that I'm missing? JS> Really, what version is that? Win95 OSR2.5 JS> BH> There are still many miljons of OS/2 users on the world. JS> BH> It's allso strange that an old and dead OS is still getting JS> fixpack's:-) JS> BH> IBM is also busy with creating OS/2 Warp 5, why should they do that f JS> BH> it's not used???:-) JS> BG> There are still millions of Atari ST and Commodore 64 users JS> BG> in the world, doesn't mean that their OS isn't dead either. JS> IBM still fully supports OS/2, still developes for OS/2, still sells S/2, JS> still provides free updates for OS/2 and many millions of people use S/2. JS> What makes you think OS/2 is dead then? Because you don't use it? Because it is fallen behind the times. I don't think IBM fully supports it either, otherwise they would try to sell it... JS> BH> It's allso stange that Lotus has just released the SmartSuite JS> BH> for OS/2 Warp version 4, why is StarDivision busy with creating JS> BH> StarOffice 5 for OS/2????? JS> BH> Yeah you are right it must be a dead OS:-) JS> BG> Why does any company make a product? To make money. JS> Of course, a company that is out to make money from a product will not JS> make that product for a dead OS then, correct? Sure, there are still people using it. But, if they wanted to make more money they would position it at a more popular platform JS> BG> There is really no other reason to make a product, regardless of JS> BG> whether you like or dislike a platform. JS> Explain LINUX, explain OPUS, my BBS, or any of the GNU software and tons JS> of other "products" made that are totally free. Ok, there are several commerical Linux variations. And, a lot of GNU software is not of commercial quality. Opus? Don't know what the heck that is, or what kind of a BBS you run. --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00106Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:14pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Starting a new debate On Sun 26-Apr-1998 8:59a, Jack Stein said to Ben Granville: JS> Ben Granville wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS> BG> If you are talking and intranet with mostly (or all) PC or JS> BG> Mac clients, deffinately NT. JS> If you are running UNIX on an Intra net, why would your clients be mostly JS> (or all) PC or MAC clients? That is stupid and would defeat the purpose JS> of running UNIX to begin with. Ok, maybe you missed something. Someone wanted a reason to run NT vs Unix. (So, I was giving a case for the NT) JS> BG> The administration and setup is much easier, JS> Not a chance on earth. Administration of a network running PC's of any JS> kind is a nightmare. 10,000 PC's with 10,000 hard drives, 10,000 JS> motherboards, 10,000 * # sims, 10,000 lame users screwing with there JS> systems, and on and on. JS> Add very lame security and you have a network with very bad breath. And how would 10,000 Unix boxes be simpler. Lets see, you have 10,000 PCs, with 10,000 HDs, 10,000 motherboards and no standard administrative control between them. And, as for security I don't really catch what you're talking about, if I have an intranet I really don't have to worry about outside threats... JS> BG> the hardware has _MUCH_ more support and you can use standard JS> BG> applications like MS Office... JS> MS Office is not "standard" on Unix. Besides, if everyone ran Unix, the JS> software for it would be everywhere. Software is not an OS issue, JS> software can/is written for every OS platform on earth. Ok, back to the first thing, so, what is the "Standard" productivity software on Unix? Hmmm, is there one? JS> Is there a reason one cannot write a certain type of app because you run JS> UNIX? Agreed, but not part of this debate. But, then again, how can you write a Win32 app on Unix? JS> I would be interesting in hearing what computing task cannot be performed JS> on UNIX that can only be solved by running an MS DOS machine? I would like to hear the same but oposite... Here's one for you, say you want to use the industry standard MS Excel to edit a document. How would you accomplish this in Unix? --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00107Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:16pm \/To: JEFF DUNLOP (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Starting a new debate On Sun 26-Apr-1998 10:01p, Jeff Dunlop said to Ben Granville: JD> BG> Ok, I'll bite. I would choose NT based on the enviornment. If you JD> are JD> BG> talking and intranet with mostly (or all) PC or Mac clients, JD> deffinately JD> BG> NT. The administration and setup is much easier, the hardware has JD> BG> _MUCH_ more support and you can use standard applications like MS JD> BG> Office... JD> You just blew it bigtime. Office runs just fine from a Unix file server. JD> By now, it comes as no surprise. On the Unix machine? I can see using NFS or something and having a network install of Office (I don't think Office 95 or 97 support this however) but with 10,000 users that's going to get ugly. Especially at 10Mb speeds... --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00108Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:20pm \/To: JEFF DUNLOP (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 Dead debate On Sun 26-Apr-1998 10:07p, Jeff Dunlop said to Ben Granville: JD> BG> IBM does a great job at making sure that people won't (can't) switch JD> BG> from Win95 to OS/2. When was the last time you saw an OS/2 JD> commercial? JD> I see OS/2 ads on the Internet all the time. OS/2 for the TV-viewing JD> public is insane, not that you're seeing daily Windows 95 advertisements JD> anymore either. I don't even see any OS/2 ads on www.ibm.com. What does that say about IBM's support? As for MS adverts, I see them everyday. (Not Windows 95, but Windows in general...) JD> BG> How about a boxed copy of Warp in a computer store? JD> It's on the shelf at Comp USA, Computer City and Fry's here in acramento. JD> Those are the three largest retailers. It's on the shelf here also, but it's a copy of Warp 3.0. The Fry's here in LA doesn't have anything. (they even carry Caldera and Redhat but not OS/2) JD> BG> How about in a magazine add? JD> IBM advertises OS/2 regularly in PC Week and Infoworld, usually in JD> conjunction JD> with their Java and Workspace on Demand features. I was thinking more of real magazines, not add related industry rags like Infoworld... --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00109Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:26pm \/To: JEFF DUNLOP (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 Dead debate On Sun 26-Apr-1998 10:08p, Jeff Dunlop said to Ben Granville: JD> BG> Yes, and OS/2 is much better than Win95, right? And Bill lives in JD> Area JD> BG> 51 and the communists have a plot to rid the world of Unix right? JD> BG> Shouldn't this garbage be posted in controversy echo? JD> If so, then your replies might be more acceptable in a 12 Steps echo. JD> BG> Wow, 4 people, that's absolutely an amazing figure. You should send JD> BG> this over to IBM and maybe they'll start supporting OS/2 again. JD> IBM has been inking multi-million-dollar OS/2 deals this year. $200 JD> million-plus in Brazil (some government agency), something like $50 JD> million with a very large US bank just a couple of days ago, using JD> Workspace on Demand. This is in the current PC Week or Infoworld if you JD> would like a first-hand dose of reality. JD> Try this on for size: OS/2 is not a moron's operating system. OS/2 is not JD> for you. IBM is demonstrating marketing genius when they convince _you_ JD> not to buy OS/2 by hiding it from where you hang out, while at the same JD> time convincing _me_ to buy it by displaying it where I hang out. Ben: JD> They don't want you on the tech support line trying to support a single JD> copy of OS/2. There's no money in you. They want me supporting my dozens JD> of copies, and preferably guys bigger than me supporting their tens of JD> thousands of copies, with a single phone call. Good, because OS/2 probably wouldn't support my Ultra-33 HD yet, and waiting another year for it might get painfull. But the fact is, they don't (conciously) do anything you've said. So, you like OS/2, so I don't. IBM would take money from Satan (Mr Gates, as you know him) himself just to make a buck, but, that doesn't make OS/2 a well supported, up to date product. JD> Microsoft is the same way. When they preload Windows 95 and NT, the JD> manufacturer is responsible for tech support. Only large companies get JD> tech support on their W95/NT site licenses. MS' retail W95/NT sales, hich JD> are very light in comparison, do come with limited tech support, just ike JD> OS/2. Yes, and the manufacturers know that if the put OS/2 on they will get calls saying, "I can't seem to get Office 97 to work on my new pc..." and so they don't bother. JD> KA>> Just about every case I've seen, the reason usually involved a need JD> KA>> (or perceived need) to run some Win95 only app, usually because of JD> KA>> work, and doing so via some multi-boot setup like Boot Manager or JD> KA>> equivalent wasn't desired and/or possible. JD> BG> Or, if they had a hardware device that wasn't supported in OS/2 (you JD> BG> know somthing non-essential like a HD, CD, or sound card...) JD> Christ, your delusional. OS/2's legacy CD support is very good, and IDE JD> support is excellent. Sound support is nearly universal (since most sound JD> cards must be SB-compatible to be viable), and SCSI and IDE support is JD> universal as well. IDE universal? SCSI universal? I must remember that before I buy my next RAID card. (I'll just buy the cheapest because they're all the same, right?) JD> Are you sure you're not Dale Ross? Do you have a secert? Who's that? --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00110Date: 04/28/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 03:29pm \/To: MATT BEDYNEK (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Why Nt Server? On Sun 26-Apr-1998 5:39p, Matt Bedynek said to Ben Granville: MB> Sat Apr 25 1998 10:01, Ben Granville wrote to Abram Hindle: MB> BG> But the Linux corporations are going to run isn't going to be free. MB> BG> I don't think I've ever heard of a non-ISP running a freeware MB> BG> Linux. Maybe Caldera or something but not Slackware, etc. MB> What about FreeBSD? Maybe BSD or NetBSD but not FreeBSD. Of the hundreds of Unix boxes at my workplace I think it is probably about 50% Digital Unix, 25% Solaris, and the rest made up of IRIX, NetBSD, SCO (why? I can't answer that), and a few Linux PCs floating around. --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00111Date: 04/29/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 08:50pm \/To: JOSEPH W DUMOULIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Living OS's and almost dead ones... On Tue 28-Apr-1998 12:06a, Joseph W Dumoulin said to Ben Granville: JD> I bet you're impressed. JD> Hey Ben how the hell are ya! JD> BG> Why does any company make a product? To make money. There is JD> BG> really no other reason to make a product, regardless of whether JD> BG> you like or dislike a platform. JD> wouldn't the flaw in that theory be "freware" and "public domane"? Yes, but usually the software is not up to commercial standards. Name me one great widely used PD program that doesn't have a better (sometimes from the same company) commercial version. --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334)