--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00023Date: 04/13/98 From: BEN GRANVILLE Time: 08:14pm \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Living OS's and almost dead ones... On Sat 11-Apr-1998 1:49p, Justin Baustert said to Abram Hindle: JB> AH> Dead or dying: OS/2 - Personally I think it's dead. Hardly anyone JB> AH> uses it any more and your more likely to Caldera than OS/2 warp on a JB> AH> store shelf. Also OS/2 ispretty old, not that an old OS is bad it's JB> AH> just that no one really uses it anymore and I feel the BBS community JB> AH> IS NOT a good example of the overall computer world. JB> We've heard from the skeptics that OS/2 has been dead or dying over the JB> past JB> 10 years, and it still has not occurred. There are still millions of /2 JB> systems, most of them in the corporate sector. Furthermore, OS/2 is in JB> fact JB> more updated than Microsoft's NT 4.0, so the "old" doesn't come close to JB> the JB> truth, unless you mean "old" from the very first version released.. I don't get the more updated part. So, you mean that since IBM thought it was wise to add useless features like Voice Recognition to it's OS instead of solid driver support it is more up to date? I don't think so... --- CNet/3 * Origin: Powered by Motorola - Ill Communication (1:102/334) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00024Date: 04/21/98 From: DAVID BOWERMAN Time: 05:31pm \/To: ELLIOTT GOODMAN (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 is dead - again. Elliott Goodman wrote in a message to David Bowerman: DB> The definition of a honest politician is a politician who stays DB> bought. EG> Straight out of Heinlein, isn't it? Yes. The Notebooks of Lazarus Long plus a couple of other places -- I seem to remember originally seeing it in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Mike was one of my all time favorite characters. Regards, David --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: Frog Hollow -- a scenic backroad off the Infobahn (1:153/290) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00025Date: 04/23/98 From: JOHN KUHNS Time: 03:11am \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 0 times) Subj: Living OS's and almost dead ones... -=> Quoting Justin Baustert to John Kuhns <=- JB> The answer is that IBM doesn't want OS/2 in the home market.. When JB> Warp 3 was selling 1 million copies a month only a couple months after JB> Win95 was released, IBM quickly pulled the rug out from underneath JB> everyone. IBM declared Win95 the "winner" of the desktop wars.. In JB> truth, IBM decided they didn't want to deal with the home user. I see JB> their point. The average consumer doesn't have a clue what he wants, JB> what he gets is forced in front of his face regardless. In truth....I don't think IBM wants anyone to use OS/2. At ttp://quote.yahoo. com, there were several articles regarding NT, and the most significant was that of the US Air Force announcing a transition from Unix based servers to NT based. No mention whatsoever of OS/2. The USAF felt that NT was the roduct to best meet their needs for the coming future. JK> computer activities are based there. Where I work (a major Fortune JK> 500 firm), we use NT4.0 as the OS of choice, as does several other JB> What's your firm? I'm afraid I cannot divulge that information, but I can tell you we've got global operations with 1997 sales well in excess of $20 billion. Regards, John jkuhns@neta.com ... OS/2 2.0 ERROR: Purchase 486-50 with 8 Meg to continue... --- FMail/Win32 1.42/g+ * Origin: The GhostRider BBS Glendale, Az. (602) 580-4846 (1:114/314) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00026Date: 04/22/98 From: ABRAM HINDLE Time: 08:28pm \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Why Nt Server? HB> 1. Unix is too expensive. HB> 2. He doesn't trust Linux. Can you clarify this? Did he say anything about Linux? It's the IT'S FREE SO IT'S BAD thing we gotta eradicate. This idea that something is free sucks is just like the general feeling about welfare. People view linux as welfare S.. ABeZ --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: T-Shirts 'N Genes BBS Duncan Canada (250) 748-3408 (1:340/204) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00027Date: 04/22/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:14pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 Dead debate Abram Hindle wrote in a message to All: AH> I NEVER see Os/2 getting any NEW users. If you read the OS/2 echo's, you will see new users all the time. AH> Those were my reasons on basing OS/2 as dead. Dead is not a AH> good word. I would call it being squished or put aside. Dead AH> was a little too strong. Thats an understatement. I agree it is not looking good for OS/2 as far as marketing goes. All the hype magazines have said nothing but stupid things about it since day one, and no one other than users promote it. Not easy for new users to use something they can't easily buy, and the makers prefer you don't use it. AH> Now I'll drop that.. I didn't feel like responding AH> to the wave of mail I got. AH> Lets look at UNIX is Dead. Personally I think UNIX AH> is probably doing a little better now than it previously AH> did! Not likely. Kmart, Gateway and about every other retailer on earth sell only MS products, maybe an occaisional MAC because of dumb parents that want the same computer, whatever a computer is, that their school uses. AH> Like the commercial unic's are dying off due to their AH> ENORMOUS COSTS. What enormous costs might that be? AH> But Solaris and Linux etc are getting really popular. Unix has AH> grown to the lower end of the computer market. Unix and Linux have little chance of ever going anywhere. The dumbing down of the user base do to WINDOWS crap makes it impossible for home and causual users to EVER figure out how computers operate. Todays users don't know jack about computing, and worse, many of the tech's don't know much more. Handing the tech's or the users a copy of Linux would be like handing you're dog a sack of flour and telling him to go make his own dog biscuits. Won't happen, so forget it, everything is DEAD except WIN. Notice that 99% of all win tech solutions for about any problem is to re-boot, when that fails, re-install. Win95 has got to be the MOST re-installed OS ever made. The only person I know that never re-installed WIN95 is me.... AH> Um so drop the OS/2 IS DEAD thing it's an opinion debate and AH> DEAD was THE WRONG WORD.. Being Squashed is better.. Squashed by IBM, MS and the Hype rags. No one wants OS/2 around except the users. Pretty cool situation. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00028Date: 04/22/98 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:34pm \/To: DAVE HAMILTON (Read 0 times) Subj: Starting a new debate Dave Hamilton wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS> I would like to know why anyone would choose NT over UNIX for a JS> network OS though, so I hope thats your subject. DH> My guess is the perceived vendor support. End users are DH> terrified of winding up with an unsupported investment and DH> have the illusion that just anyone can support a MS DH> platform. If the vendor they buy from disappears they think DH> they can just pin the tail on the yellow pages donkey and DH> find another one. I was actually looking for more technical reasons, something like NT is technically better than Unix in this area.... DH> I had a user who had 15 OS/2 workstations networked as peers DH> but also connected via serial links to a multiuser box. DH> Before the OS/2 boxes they used dumb terminals for 15 years DH> and loved it. Same here, but we had 10,000 users. DH> When their local hardware vendor came in and DH> saw OS/2, he convinced them they could get more usability if DH> they replaced OS/2 with Win95, and they did. Same here, but they replace UNIX with win95 and NT. What a joke. DH> (I supported the multiuser box and server software). What a DH> horror story. One I'm familar with, first hand. DH> These guys were processing 15,000 retail invoices a day and DH> machines started hanging up, dropping their serial DH> connections, and just generally being Win95 nuicances. After DH> 20 years in business the superstore folded, and I remain DH> convinced that going from a rock-solid computer system to a DH> flakey one contributed to their demise. No doubt that is true. In my situation, we cannot go out of business. We replaced the worlds best OS with the worlds worst... proving that stupidy never goes out of style. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00029Date: 04/23/98 From: KENNETH ABRAMS Time: 12:25am \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 Dead debate Hello Abram! 20 Apr 98 17:20, Abram Hindle wrote to All: AH> Many users are switching or starting to use Linux, FreeBSD, AH> BeOS. Yep. Lots of folks are realizing that finding an alternative to the MS junk that came on their computer is a good thing. AH> Almost all new comps have Win95 on them. Which says much about the way MS manipulated the market and nothing at all about the value of Win95 (other than, you get what you pay for). AH> RARELY (actually in my case NEVER) have I heard someone AH> switch AH> from 95 to OS/2 or start TO USE OS/2. They have been using There have been at least 3-4 people in the Fido Technical echo in just the last few months working on transitioning from whatever they are currently running (DOS, DV, and/or Windows of some variety) to OS/2. It was recently announced that NationsBank is switching their systems to OS/2 Warp Server and Workspace On Demand. A friend in Colorado called me just a couple of days ago, telling me about his new Gateway computer. He's already concluded he doesn't like Win95, asked me what I was running, and asked about changing to it. That *you* don't know anyone is immaterial. AH> OS/2 since '95 and that's it. I've seen users leave OS/2 to AH> go to Win95 (for whatever reason it remains a mystery :] ). I Just about every case I've seen, the reason usually involved a need (or perceived need) to run some Win95 only app, usually because of work, and doing so via some multi-boot setup like Boot Manager or equivalent wasn't desired and/or possible. Kenneth (kabrams@erols.com) --- GoldED/2 2.50+ * Origin: Lexington Park, Maryland (1:109/921.67) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00030Date: 04/19/98 From: DIRK CAP Time: 08:42pm \/To: MATTHEW LAITY (Read 0 times) Subj: Starting a new debate Hoy Matthew, ML> I was thinking of a topic that we could debate on and I came up with ML> some ideas,..... ML> debate then please drop a line to Matthew Laity, then I can send you ML> some more details on the topics and how its going to run. I am interested in a new topic. Dirk ... Old bakers never die, they just quit making dough! --- PPoint 1.70 * Origin: Cap Dirk from Belgium (2:292/865.19) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00031Date: 04/23/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 07:58am \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Why Nt Server? Wed Apr 22 1998 20:28, Abram Hindle wrote to Howard Brazee: HB> 1. Unix is too expensive. HB> 2. He doesn't trust Linux. AH> Can you clarify this? Did he say anything about Linux? It's the AH> IT'S FREE SO IT'S BAD thing we gotta eradicate. This idea that AH> something is free sucks is just like the general feeling about AH> welfare. People view linux as welfare OS.. ABeZ Not to mention FreeBSD which a lot of large ISPs use! Later, Matt (mbedynek@hotmail.com) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F5G00032Date: 04/23/98 From: MATT BEDYNEK Time: 06:40pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: OS/2 Dead debate Wed Apr 22 1998 22:14, Jack Stein wrote to Abram Hindle: AH> I NEVER see Os/2 getting any NEW users. The ususal hype from windows pushers! I setup a web server for a school district and the OS of choice was OS/2, Linux, or FreeBSD. FreeBSD won because its much better security and it being more remotely managable and also being free for the most part. Some thing Unix will always be able to do that NT or even OS/2 will not, but i continue to see that change for OS/2. TCP/IP 4.1 for example. You see the windows pushers debating how much NT is going to be taken into the ISP business, but I don't see NT/MS pushing out the Unisys systems running Unix System V (rel 4). Those damn things are rock solid and with a knowledable admin 1000 times more unhackable than NT can ever hope to be. AH> Those were my reasons on basing OS/2 as dead. Dead is not a AH> good word. I would call it being squished or put aside. Dead AH> was a little too strong. JS> Thats an understatement. I agree it is not looking good for OS/2 JS> as far as marketing goes. All the hype magazines have said nothing It does look good for OS/2 depending on how you look at it. IBM is still improving OS/2, just OS/2 is not intended for the new generation of computer users MS has created "point and click" type. Only an absolute idiot would call OS/2 dead or squashed because of the fact that as long as one user still uses it, the OS is not dead. ;) But we know hell of a lot more use it than just one user. AH> Lets look at UNIX is Dead. Personally I think UNIX AH> is probably doing a little better now than it previously AH> did! Unix is not dead in the least nor will it ever be. I doubt AT&T will ever use NT for phone switching nor will any major backbone ISP use it. Most of the major ISPs use System V Unix. AH> Like the commercial unic's are dying off due to their AH> ENORMOUS COSTS. Enormous costs? Well hell, I picked up FreeBSD from MicroCenter with a 4CD pack for 15$. Can't beat that, I even know of several large Internet services that use it! JS> What enormous costs might that be? ;) AH> But Solaris and Linux etc are getting really popular. Unix has AH> grown to the lower end of the computer market. He's right, for those that need point and click, unix is not the way to go! for those that need untouched reliablitity then unix is the right choice! JS> Unix and Linux have little chance of ever going anywhere. The Not with the enduser it doesn't, but considering that linux is getting better, nothing is stopping it from becoming popular. I recently purchased redhat linux 5.0, not that bad, even runs quake2! JS> and worse, many of the tech's don't know much more. Handing the JS> tech's or the users a copy of Linux would be like handing you're JS> dog a sack of flour and telling him to go make his own dog Shame this wouldn't fit in a tagline! Later, Matt (mbedynek@hotmail.com) --- timEd/2 1.10+ * Origin: The PostOffice - (409) 531-0067 - WHARTON, TX USA @ (1:106/1)