--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3N00005Date: 03/17/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 12:56am \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: NT bugs? Me need more! MB>> did you mark it as "not present" in the BIOS ? if so, then it's funny, MB>> let's make more fun of microsoft... AH> Actually I told the BIOS, "Hey NO DRIVE A:". BIOS replied "OK". Windows AH> Replied AH> "Duh what? Removable ? I'll look for it?" . AH> ABeZ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahha talk about stupid. In constrast, other operating systems don't try to mount a drive before checking that it really exists. Did MSDOS and DRDOS do the same? matju --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3P00000Date: 03/18/98 From: RICH VERAA Time: 04:43pm \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Os-Debate Rules 1/2 In a message to Mike Sproule, Howard Brazee wrote: HB> Warp usually runs better than W95, but I can list several things HB> which are better on W95: HB> 1. My graphics are much faster with W95 or NT with my Virge HB> drivers. Are you using the newest S3DGRADD Warp driver? Cheers, Rich http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/ * Origin: Birdsoft - North Miami (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3P00001Date: 03/19/98 From: JUSTIN BAUSTERT Time: 10:52pm \/To: HOWARD BRAZEE (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Wake Up, Ibm! HB> People want to have the same program run at work and at home. HB> Period. What people? I have Office97 loaded on NT at work, and I definitely don't want to run it at home.. JB --- Telegard/2 v3.09.b16/mL * Origin: Courier Central \ Cashion, OK \ 405.433.2665 (1:147/92) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3P00002Date: 03/18/98 From: HOWARD BRAZEE Time: 05:41am \/To: HERMAN HANSCHKE (Read 0 times) Subj: Os-Debate Rules 1/2 In a message dated 03-17-98, Herman Hanschke said to Howard Brazee: HB> OS/2, Linux, Windows Nt, Pick, MacIntosh, MVS, Aspen, Vax, Univac, HB> Burroughs, and every other OS which I have used. Even Dos. (although HH>Burroughs? which one? did you ever use the one on those old "L" series HH>machines that took 5 seconds to do a square root? My dad used to sell hem HH>and I still have a couple that work. The good ol' days :) I used Burroughs in 1980. I loved WFL, but was converting Cobol programs rom smaller Burroughs to the large machine (which I can't remember at this moment). The smaller machine used a variation of Cobol which included weird abbreviations I remember. Howard Brazee, Lakewood CO - brazee@compuserve.com ___ * MR/2 * Ivo Andric - Yugoslavia's First Nobel Laureate --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: TeamOS/2-Denver * ISDN, x2, V90 * Denver (303)337-8701 (1:104/720) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3P00003Date: 03/18/98 From: HOWARD BRAZEE Time: 05:43am \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Wake Up, Ibm! In a message dated 03-16-98, Jack Stein said to Howard Brazee: HH>programs continue to be developed for other operating systems. FORGET HH>ABOUT GAMES! They only waste time that you could be spending doing more HH>productive things on your computer. There is an OS/2 alternative to doing HH>anything that can be done in Windows HB> People want to have the same program run at work and at HB> home. Period. JS>Then they should run UNIX at work. I can call my Unix JS>system at work from any computer with any OS and a modem JS>and run my Unix apps just like I was there... no JAVA JS>needed, no junk software needed at home. I guess in 5 - JS>10 years all these Intel/IBM/MS PC junkware will catch up JS>to where UNIX was 25 years ago... How many of these users have Unix at home? At home you compromise with a machine which will run your programs and the programs your family wants (including games). Hardly any of these users will want to spend the perceived time to learn how to administer Unix. Howard Brazee, Lakewood CO - brazee@compuserve.com ___ * MR/2 * Bueller? Bueller? - Ben Stein --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: TeamOS/2-Denver * ISDN, x2, V90 * Denver (303)337-8701 (1:104/720) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3R00000Date: 03/19/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 11:26pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 0 times) Subj: Sym-Links and Links AH> What windows needs is symlinks and links. AH> In Linux I save megs and megs of space by linking files but never under AH> windows. In Windows most people still have 32k clusters. The average cluster size on my system is 1.4k, worsened by my DOS partitions. My parents always cut their big hard disks into "small" 8k clustered partitions. I have a 234 meg drive split into 2 fat16 2k/cluster parts, and one 406meg ext2fs 1k/cluster part. Symlinks and links confuse the average user. Microsoft web extensions for Netscape Server on HP/UX is 10 megs in .tar.Z format (8.5 in .tar.gz format, and probably 8 in .tar.bz2 format). Uncompressed, it's like 25 megs. I wandered through that crap and found 3 or 4 3.7meg executables that were all the same size. I used FC in bin mode and found they were all the same file, several times. MS sux. matju --- Terminate 4.00 * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3R00001Date: 03/19/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 11:32pm \/To: QUENN FINCH (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: wake up, IBM! QF> Yes OS/2 is more easier to install and config than Linux. On the QF> internet, they QF> are designing a better QF> desktop manager called KDE desktop(I think this one will be the standard QF> the QF> feature) which will make it QF> easier to use. The desktop look kind of like Windows, Mac and OS/2 QF> combine. QF> Check their web site at QF> http://www.kde.org. Wouldn't that be more like just a clone of CDE ? There's also another thing called... wait... hmm... isn't it CXDE or something like that? or XFDE ? whatever. it's a CDE-like desktop thing again -- i'm not sure it's a window manager though. (KDE is) QF> when they finish with it, it will be as popular as Linux. I did read hat QF> software makers are interested in QF> BeOS. I think BeOS will make a great alternative of OS/2 since OS/2 is QF> dying out very very slow. BTW, I QF> read that Quake 2 for BeOS will be out this Spring. If you want to read QF> more info on BeOS check it out at: QF> http://www.be.com having read the stuff at www.be.com a few months ago, i would say that this is a good OS. It's multithreaded to the bone, too. matju --- Terminate 4.00 * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3R00002Date: 03/21/98 From: MATHIEU BOUCHARD Time: 06:45pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Linux Vs Windows MB>> No. HPFS was fine. The screwups were in the DOS FAT driver, MB>> or something around there. I think it had something to do MB>> with the dual boot, but i don't know why. JS> That expains it then. MSDOS cannot handle longfilenames or extended JS> attributes. Running Dual boot is like playing russian roulette with our JS> system. The problem has little to do with OS/2 WARP 3.0 being the top JS> most JS> dangerious OS, FS wise. It has everything to do with NON-OS/2 DOS being JS> a dog. OS/2 had no scheme for storing long filenames and extended attributes on a FAT partition at the time, so that's no excuse. I continue to think this is OS/2's fault, though for the rest I prefer IBM to Microsoft. (Both are very evil, though) Even in w95's attempt to introduce long filenames to the ancient FAT system, the FAT system itself was kept untouched -- only special directory entries were added, which did not change the structure of the linked list table known as the FAT. In any case, there is no reason why OS/2 would screw a FAT partition, except those three that have nothing to do with design: 1. A driver bug; 2. IBM sabotaging their own product; 3. Micro$oft sabotaging OS/2. No matter how much I have Microsoft, I would rather think that in this case, 1 or 2 are the most probable. (I would not say the same about the w1nd0ws 3.1 <-> DRDOS 6.00 incompatibility) JS>> ...In the event of a truly major catastrophe, such as loss of JS>> the SuperBlock or the root directory, the HPFS is designed to JS>> give data recovery the best possible chance of success. MB>> I believe that. JS> And this is why OS/2 should be placed at or near the botton of your most JS> dangerous list. Actually, i would really need a bi-dimensional classification, on average failure, and variance of failure. OS/2 might be very safe in average, but sometimes it did screw very much -- in my experience of things. Linux might be less safe than OS/2 in average, but you get less eesurprises. I'm not sure whether this previous paragraph really mean anything to me!!! I think i've come to the wrong conclusions... 1. The sum of all OS/2 trouble we had, even though it was in the FAT area, has made much more damage than the sum of everything Linux did to me; 2. With Linux, I have found my root directory in the lost clusters directory... fsck had created a new root dir, and my old dir was into /lost+found/ ... pretty funny actually. I took more time downloading a boot disk than fixing (completely, lossless) the fs problem itself. I hadn't shutdown my machine normally that time. Out of maybe 5-10 times it happened to me, it crashed once. BTW I don't remember whether my parents used MSDOS or DRDOS at the time. My biggest personal FS crash was with DR DOS (I was more or less concerned by the OS/2 crash). I was programming in a non-protected environment. A bad pointer passed from my QuickBASIC procedures to my assembly language procedures resulted in a partial overwrite of the SuperStor disk compressor tables. I found entire directories in lost clusters, partially damaged. I recovered more than 75% of the information. (I could have recovered more than 90% of it if had felt like it) The chains of blocks were not broken, but i had lost the filename and filesize information, which is lots of trouble to get back -- especially the filesize. MB>>> 2. Windows 95 MB>>> 3. Linux MB>>> 4. DOS (my favorite is DR DOS) MB>>> 5. OS-9 and Solaris (no problems) MB>> I was not talking about FS design, rather the way the OS MB>> handles the FS's in conjunction with the rate of system MB>> panics. JS> On both counts, OS/2 was dramatically misplaced on your most dangerous JS> list. The rate of panics is low in OS/2, and the way the OS handles the FS is disbalanced -- from very good to very poor. MB>> That was my point. Not much with FS design but FS driver MB>> design and generic memory protection. JS> FAT, and that is where you most likely ran into trouble with OS/2, and JS> explains JS> why I haven't lost one file in 6 years of running OS/2 both FAT and HPFS JS> 24/7. Maybe we are both wrong in our explanation of the source of the problem, but then it would mean that my mother knew it right from the start. :+) She would think the problem was in 3rd party software, especially the one that ran with DOS. I had rejected the idea totally because that software had always worked fine otherwise. Now I really don't know what to think about all this. Notice that I didn't speak about viruses yet. 8-) MB>> There are at least three Win31 emulators and three DOS MB>> emulators for Unix. There are dosemu and wine on generic MB>> Linux systems, and similar tools on Caldera Linux and SCO MB>> Unix. JS> Try running a DOS app, a Win app and a Unix app concurrently, all on the JS> same screen, with data being passed between them while running. AFAIK, that is being done with Caldera tools and SCO tools. The free tools called dosemu and wine maybe won't do interapplication communication, but sure can run on the same screen. I've ran xdosemu in X-Window. Maybe the interapplication communication (especially sharing the same filesystem) hasn't gotten really far because there was no urge of doing so for noncommercial uses. JS>> and one hardware failure. Keep and mind that these Unix boxes are not JS>> asked to do bazaar things, like run funky DOS/WIN apps and so on. MB>> Even if they did so, if you wrote a complete simulator that MB>> didn't do any low-level things, you could run DOS/WIN apps MB>> very securely (though slowly) -- and it would be portable. JS> OS/2 does this, and very fast and securely. I think that except the FAT FS mystery, the funky video driver problems, a few crashes, the 3-hour free internet deal, and the funkier sound driver problems, everything was fine, and on average was better than any DRDOS/OpenDOS/DESQview/QEMM configuration I've had lately. But the FS problems really scared me, and also I often wanted to run DOS-only apps that refuse to work in anything else than plain DOS. Sometime ago, I even thought of reinstalling Warp. MB>> similar processes. The thing is, the system swaps so much MB>> that it takes minutes before you can kill it (enough time to MB>> get a vfork failed error or such) JS> I used to get occasional problems with too many forks, but just killed JS> those JS> processes. Never had to do a system reset. I had witnessed people JS> re-setting JS> systems more than once when they didn't know how to deal with problems. A sysadmin could, at the very least, reserve a meg of virtual memory for him, so in case of such a problem he could at least log in and kill the processes, even if the system crawls for several minutes and several applications crash (even X Servers)... which at least wouldn't require a system reboot. This is already done on lots of systems. To be more radical, one could limit a single user's usage to a certain portion of the total memory, like 25% or so. It's not a replacement for the first method, though, so it's better to use both in conjunction. matju --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --- Terminate 4.00/Pro * Origin: The Lost Remains Of SatelliteSoft BBS (1:163/215.42) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3R00003Date: 03/20/98 From: ABRAM HINDLE Time: 10:09pm \/To: MATHIEU BOUCHARD (Read 0 times) Subj: NT bugs? Me need more! MB>> did you mark it as "not present" in the BIOS ? if MB>> so, then it's funny, MB>> let's make more fun of microsoft... AH> Actually I told the BIOS, "Hey NO DRIVE A:". BIOS AH> replied "OK". Windows AH> Replied AH> "Duh what? Removable ? I'll look for it?" . AH> ABeZ MB> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahha MB> talk about stupid. In constrast, other operating systems don't try to MB> mount a drive before checking that it really exists. MB> Did MSDOS and DRDOS do the same? Yes drive mounting whether auto matic or manual is important cause it also tells whether that device is there or working. It gives you more control with some added little human annoyances (a la mac). The problems with not really mounting a drive is speed and unreliability. Like you might remove the disk when it's not done but you have more PHYSICAL control. ABeZ --- Maximus/2 2.02 * Origin: T-Shirts 'N Genes BBS Duncan Canada (250) 748-3408 (1:340/204) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: F3R00004Date: 03/22/98 From: KEITH DOUGLAS Time: 12:07am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: OS-DEBATE RULES 1/2 Hello All! The Moderators of this echo are: Moderator : Dave Raymond - 1:3603/210.12 Co-Moderator: Keith Douglas - 1:167/310 *****RULES***** 1) This conference is dedicated to discussing personal computer systems software such as Operating Systems and Graphical User interfaces. Some samples of suitable topics for discussion are, but are not limited to: Operating system marketing => Microsoft vs. IBM Feature comparisons => Cooperative multitasking vs preemptive multitasking Benchmarking of systems => Speed of DOS or Win16 apps on Windows, Win-OS/2, and NT Hardware issues involving => Multiprocessor cache coherency Operating Systems File systems => FAT vs. HPFS for space allocation Specific products => DOS, Windows, OS/2, DESQview, NT, Unix, Mach, AmigaDOS, MacOS, NeXTStep, etc. Operating systems that don't run on personal computers, such as VMS, OS/MVS, Unicos, etc., may be discussed for purposes of comparison, but if you are interested in in-depth discussions of minicomputer, mainframe, and supercomputer operating systems then it would probably be best to find a different conference, even though you won't be ostracized for such discussion in OS-DEBATE. 1a) Off topic messages are NOT permitted. 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