--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300043Date: 11/30/97 From: JAMES STEIN Time: 05:30pm \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: How Microsoft Works JS>> I got this via e-mail. I think it makes very interesting JS>> reading. KD> That it does, but it also has very little to do with operating KD> systems (directly). KD> I'd suggest that you exerpt and talk about the relevance (if KD> any) of this documents to OSes. Keith, as you should well know, Microsoft considers their Internet Explorer part of the Win95 operating system. Could the information I posted be an indication of how Microsoft manages to dominates the PC OS business? Jim --- Via Silver Xpress V3.01 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR 16.8 Pgh Pa (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300044Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 08:03am \/To: QUENN FINCH (Read 1 times) Subj: Win95 Quenn Finch wrote in a message to Jack Stein: JS>can forget about the OS, and know that their software will JS>run on all major platforms. This will mostly eliminate JS>the software end of the OS debate, which isn't an OS issue JS>in the first place. Why use the worlds worst OS's when you JS>can use the wprlds best at the same price (OS/2), or free, JS>(as in LINUX)? QF> I rather use Redhat Linux than OS/2. Reasons is because the QF> interface look better. Your talking of running it with XWindows, something I've never done. Looks, however, is not a good reason to run any OS, as they all can be made to look like the others. QF> I can easily change it to look like Win95, Mac or OS/2. You mean like OS/2, Mac _AND_ WIN95, as they all _LOOK_ the same. QF> They have native Quake and soon to be Quake II. I can run MAC QF> software by using a program called Executor and Wine to run QF> Win95/NT software on Linux I don't have to wait for the native QF> Nescape for Lunix/Unix to come out(For OS/2 Netscape, they take QF> forever for it to be release). Oh they will even have native QF> Internet Explorer 4.0 for Linux real soon. And many many more QF> reasons....................................... I would probaly go with a Unix system myself, once JAVA becomes a fact of life, and perhaps sooner than that. Not for any of the reasons you listed, however. QF> Yes you can buy Redhat Linux 5.0 either at a computer QF> store or download it for free on the Internet. I'll QF> probably buy it since they include extra goodies on the QF> CD-ROM. I for sure would buy my first copy at a book store, not necessarilly RedHat, but for the book. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300045Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 09:07pm \/To: ALBERT ALCOCEBA (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the21:07:5412/02/97 Albert Alcoceba wrote in a message to Darrell Salter: AA> You'll find you get complaints no matter what OS and AA> software is running. Our office ran Unix for many years, never got any complaints related to the OS. AA> It is true however, that people running alternative operating AA> systems tend to be more computer gurus and can solve their own AA> problems, while those running Windows will be less computer AA> literate or just have real work to get done rather than wasting AA> time going to college etc to become computer gurus. Wow, are you off base on that one. People USING computers to get "real work done" are seldom computer "literate" as far as installing the OS, installing the software, maintaining the systems and so on. "Real work" seldom is related in any way to computers. The "users" doing "real work" generally know how to run the software required to get the "real work" done, and that is completly unrelated to the OS in use. We had 10,000 computer illiterate people using UNIX year in and year out with narry a complaint, and close to zero problems. Those we switched to WIN95 are having nothing but problems, and have been for 9 months now. The ONLY OS for computer illiterate to use to get "real work" done is UNIX, as it keeps the illiterate away from things they know nothing about. WIN has zero protection from the user screwing everything imaginable up with EACH INDIVIDUAL system, it is a joke, not a business enviornment grade OS. AA>> One of the largest ISP's in Australia (Telstra Big Pond) runs NT AA>> exclusively. They must be fools, as a large ISP has no reason to run something as lame as NT. DS> You keep talking about time. What you want is a fast food joint, like DS> McDonald's. That's fine for a quick burger, but when I want a good DS> meal I go to a good restaurant. When I want a good op sys I don't DS> look to MS. AA> Yes - I don't have time for computers apart from using them AA> as a tool to get the job done and then they can be turned AA> off. I don't have the time to sit around learning all the AA> ins and outs of OS's. I leave that to the eggheads. So you're a lame user. No different than most lame users that want to get real work done so they should have a good OS, set up by one who IS an egghead, and they should NEVER have access to ANYTHING other than what little software they are expected to use. Most users don't even KNOW what OS they are running, and have no NEED to know either. The OS in use should be TOTALLY protected from those folks, and only UNIX does this well, with ease and total security. AA> And some of us don't care for more. As such both McDonalds AA> and MS have a place in the market. Everyone using computers wants more all the time. This is most conspicuious in WIN users, who continuously upgrade software, buy new software routinely, all because they want more. Often they upgrade software that is WORSE than they are currently using, in hopes of getting something better. Those smart enough and lucky enough to a good OS like UNIX, don't have much need to upgrade every minute. We STILL run the exact same software we ran since 1989, and the exact same UNIX OS with no problems. Even our lame WIN machines simply connect to the host and run the exact same software as the UNIX machines. The WIN garbage is known as the "$6 million mistake." AA> I have no idea what The Keg is. McDonalds makes a fine fast AA> meal. I don't really care if IBM make a technically better AA> op sys than MS when applications, hardware and other users AA> are harder to find. It's hard to find a McDonalds Hamburger at Burger King or Wendy's. You look in the wrong place, you have a hard time finding anything. As far as Hardware, OS/2 supports all good hardware, and so does UNIX. You try to put a 12" real fish on a 4" McDonalds bun in you find it doesn't sit well, why are you surprised at that? AA> If people in here can only discuss the technical perfection AA> one OS has over another, and not discuss some real world AA> details as to what OS is more practical then those people AA> are pretty sad indeed. You have a problem seeing the "real world" picture. If a billion people eat McDonalds fish sandwich when they could walk across the street and get a REAL fish sandwich at the same price, what you have is a billion stupid people, and nothing has happened to make the McDonalds fish sandwich good or better because a lot of stupid people don't know enough to walk across the street. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300046Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 09:40pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 1 times) Subj: Peeve w/ Linux Abram Hindle wrote in a message to All: AH> My main peeve about Linux is the lack of cool games and AH> retail software. Retail Software is where Win95 really AH> really shines. AH> were the rate the amount of software for particular OS's I'd AH> rate like so: (1-10)Win95 - 10 AH> WinNT - 10 <--- It can use Win95 stuff can't it? AH> Win31 - 7 <--- Lots but not as much as there was.. AH> DOS - 8 <--- Tonnes but really not much retail... AH> Linux - 4 <--- Needs MORE, no real retail! AH> Un*X - 4 <--- Same boat same OS really AH> OS/2 - 3.5<--- This one is super hard to rate. It AH> doesn't have any retail anymore and is AH> sorta old.. AH> MacOS - 6 <--- Lots of retail but can't compete w/ AH> Win31 or DOS.. This is not fact, it's my opinion. AH> ABeZ Your opinion isn't worth much. First, OS/2 has OS/2 DOS and WIN apps all available to it, so it has MORE software than all the others. Second, WIN31 is not an OS by any stretch of the imagination, it is simply a DOS shell. Thirdly, Linux and "Un*ix" are the same platform, so rating them seperate is nonsense. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300047Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 09:53pm \/To: KENNETH ABRAMS (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to L Kenneth Abrams wrote in a message to Albert Alcoceba: AA> I cannot see any of the people I work with coping with any other AA> O/S... they have enough trouble with Windows! (The questions I kept KA> ... it doesn't matter if you're using KA> Win3.x, Win95, OS/2, or a Mac, You forgot the best of the bunch for computer illiterates to use, and that is UNIX, as they, or more precisely, the OS is protected from them. KA> you typically run an application by clicking on an icon-as KA> long as the app interface is the same or similar, you'll KA> notice little difference. Our people had to go to two days of training to just learn how to "click on the icon" in the WIN environment. In the Unix environment, they got a one page memo telling them how to log on and access the menu. How much do you think it costs to send 10,000 users to two days training, just to learn how to screw up an entire OS on a regular basis? KA> In other words, for the average user it doesn't matter what KA> OS is being used, as long as they can find how to start KA> their apps and still use apps they're familiar with. Your KA> average user is usually "coping" with an application, not KA> the OS. Loud applause to one who has true insite to real world computing. AA> Are you saying that for these people any other O/S but windows AA> would be better suited? KA> Yes. No credit for that answer, as it is painfully obvious to most anyone computer literate and some real world experience in various OS. WIN is the worst choice for most any situation, be it business or home use. About the only socially redeeming value is every retailer on earth is happy to sell you it w/o offering any choice, and tons of lame games to go with it. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300048Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:04pm \/To: KENNETH ABRAMS (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to L Kenneth Abrams wrote in a message to Albert Alcoceba: AA> KA> bugs in all but the early versions of DOOM's sound support. AA> ie., play it without sound. Hardly a solution. The OS/2 version of KA> No, you just needed to direct the FX to the PC speaker vice KA> the sound card. Granted that ain't much, but it worked. The KA> problem is that id changed libraries and the one used for KA> the newer versions is buggy. I ran DOOM on OS/2 through the sound card, hooked up to my stereo and it would blow away any sound system sold at retail stores with computers, same with EPIC PINBALL, and the docs specifically stated it would not run with OS/2, but they were full of it, like most lame game people. KA> Bottom line is, I didn't buy a computer to have a game KA> machine. I certainly won't base my OS choice on gaming. KA> Besides, with the Boot Manager provided with OS/2, it's KA> simple enough to keep a small DOS bootable partition around KA> to boot to if I do actually want to play any of the more KA> demanding games. A few years ago a friend of mine bought a PC for his kid from Gateway, WIN installed on it of course. They were computer illiterate, and when I went to visit him, he had to reboot to a DOS disk to get EPIC PINBALL to run at all, saying he didn't have enough memory to load the game. He said he talked to Gateway for an hour in a failed attempt to get his config set up so he had enough memory to run a WIN config and load the game. I told him that is stupid, and in five minutes I had him set up just fine. I told him Gateway is a WIN only house, so you KNOW they are stupid when it comes to computing. It took an OS/2 fanatic to get his lame WIN system working half decent. I might add, I had NO such problems running the same damn application from OS/2, even though the docs said not to, it ran great, long as you didn't switch tasks too often. On the other hand, he couldn't switch tasks period with his WIN machine, he was SINGLE tasking only. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300049Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:16pm \/To: JAMES STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: How Microsoft Works James Stein wrote in a message to Keith Douglas: JS>> I got this via e-mail. I think it makes very interesting JS>> reading. JS> KD> That it does, but it also has very little to do with operating KD> systems (directly). JS> KD> I'd suggest that you exerpt and talk about the relevance (if KD> any) of this documents to OSes. JS> JS> Keith, as you should well know, Microsoft considers their JS> Internet Explorer part of the Win95 operating system. Could JS> the information I posted be an indication of how Microsoft JS> manages to dominates the PC OS business? What it does is give a hint at why the worlds worst OS is so dominant in the world of computing. This may have nothing to do with OS specifically, but it is 50% of all the arguments posted in this echo that are PRO MS ("100 billion people can't be wrong" tripe) The other 50% are related to what games are available to UNIX at Egghead. Remove these two issues, and we're down to debating UNIX, OS/2 and Macs, as WIN has NOTHING else going for it. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300050Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:25pm \/To: JONATHAN ROBERTS (Read 1 times) Subj: Vast Majority? following up a message from Greg Cobb to Jonathan Roberts: >> Excuse me? Where have you been the past year? Are you not aware the >> Java i a multi-platform language that is right on the edge of taking >> off? Are you not aware that *giants* like IBM, Novell, Sun, and >> Netscape have all partnered to give Java momentum? Sounds like you are >> in denial.. -> Have you forgotten that Java is slow, kludgey, and has no tandard -> yet? I heard on the radio a week or so ago, or read in the newspaper, that, much to MS's dismay, and with LOUD protests from MS, that the SUN JAVA implimentation has gotten the nod as the world standard for JAVA. This naturally has MS in a world of fear, as this will eventually kill MS unless they can develope a quality OS, something they have NEVER managed to do so far. I KNOW this makes you extremly happy, as it has the potential of removing the need to run any one OS over another, and you would then be free to choose the OS of your CHOICE, with little fear of running out of software sold at Kmart, or anywhere else. There would be nothing stopping you from running any app you want under Windows, other than MS refusing to support the world standard for application intigration. Why do you suppose MS would be against that? Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300051Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:39pm \/To: JONATHAN ROBERTS (Read 1 times) Subj: Vast Majority? Jonathan Roberts wrote in a message to Greg Cobb: JR> Java just seems like a return to the old days, imo. Explain when in the "old days" you could write an app that would run on Unix, DOS, OS/2 or a Mac? This must have been around the time the alians flew in to show Earthlings how to build huge triangular tombs out of 100 ton rocks, certainly long before my time. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300052Date: 12/02/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:47pm \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the22:47:1112/02/97 Justin Baustert wrote in a message to Albert Alcoceba: AA> Can you really see those "computer illiterate" folk running Linux? JB> No We've had 10,000 completely and totally computer illiterates running Unix Sys V with narry a problem for going on 10 years now. Why do you not think Unix is the BEST of all OS for computer illiterates to use their software on? AA> Or even OS/2? I don't see it as a problem. Computer literate AA> folk JB> Entirely possible.. Yes, and almost as dangerous as letting them run DOS/WIN/WIN95. Whats better in OS/2 for them is they generally have to screw things up by hand, as it doesn't screw up near as often without user intervention. AA> will decide whether or not WIN95 is best for them. If it's not AA> and they end up with a proloaded version, they will simply AA> delete the partition and start again. The rest of us whom you AA> term as "computer illiterate" can take ourpreloaded OS and use AA> it and end up being happier than if OS/2 or Linux came AA> preloaded. JB> I'm willing to bet I could preload Warp4 and the latest beta JB> version of Lotus SmartSuite/2 on a system, and *any* user JB> could head off into the sunset just like they were using JB> Win95.. Win95 has nothing on OS/2 in the "ease of use" JB> department, IMHO.. I've installed several systems for people I consider computer illiterate with OS/2. Those that know the least, have the least problems, those that fool around trying to be power users with few skills get into trouble, the same as they would with any OS they could get their grubby little fingers on. When my son was 6 years old, he had no trouble at all using OS/2, so if you have trouble using OS/2 that has been installed for you, you would have to be lamer than a 6 year old, and probably should spend your time watching water evaporate, or similar tasks of equal difficulty. Even my wife uses it with no problem, and she is not only computer illiterate, she is a computer phobe. JB> Are you speaking of the ATAPI 4-disc changer distributed by NEC? If JB> so, it most certainly is supported under OS/2.. If that isn't the JB> drive, give me some specs.. AA> That is the unit in question. At the time when I bought it there was AA> no OS/2 support for it, and there is still no Linux support for it. AA> I see that things have changed at least on the OS/2 front - yet you AA> still had to wait for it. JB> OS/2 got support for that drive back in FixPak 17 for JB> Warp3.. I can't even recall how long ago that was.. From JB> one of the Hobbes CDs I have here, it was at least as far JB> back as March of '96.. I've installed at least 10 different CD's with OS/2 with never a problem. I just installed yesterday a el cheapo Torisan 4x 3 cd changer on this system, and I didn't do anything at all, other than hook it up and reboot. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171)