--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300023Date: 12/01/97 From: JUSTIN BAUSTERT Time: 10:04pm \/To: ALBERT ALCOCEBA (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the22:04:0612/01/97 AA> And you don't consider that WIN95 is the best OS for those people? No AA> Can you really see those "computer illiterate" folk running Linux? No AA> Or even OS/2? I don't see it as a problem. Computer literate folk Entirely possible.. AA> will decide whether or not WIN95 is best for them. If it's not and AA> they end up with a proloaded version, they will simply delete the AA> partition and start again. The rest of us whom you term as "computer AA> illiterate" can take ourpreloaded OS and use it and end up being AA> happier than if OS/2 or Linux came preloaded. I'm willing to bet I could preload Warp4 and the latest beta version of Lotus SmartSuite/2 on a system, and *any* user could head off into the sunset just like they were using Win95.. Win95 has nothing on OS/2 in the "ease of use" department, IMHO.. There are portions where the network setup is quite a bit more detailed, but the general access to the OS is the same if not better.. AA> So are you going to pay for my new hardware? Unlike you I'm not AA> rolling in money. Heh.. I'm not quite rolling in it, but I do have priorities.. JB> Are you speaking of the ATAPI 4-disc changer distributed by NEC? If JB> so, it most certainly is supported under OS/2.. If that isn't the JB> drive, give me some specs.. AA> That is the unit in question. At the time when I bought it there was AA> no OS/2 support for it, and there is still no Linux support for it. AA> I see that things have changed at least on the OS/2 front - yet you AA> still had to wait for it. OS/2 got support for that drive back in FixPak 17 for Warp3.. I can't even recall how long ago that was.. From one of the Hobbes CDs I have here, it was at least as far back as March of '96.. JB --- Telegard/2 v3.08.b11/mL * Origin: Courier Central \ Cashion, OK \ 405.433.2665 (1:147/92) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300024Date: 11/30/97 From: DAVE RAYMOND Time: 11:10am \/To: ALBERT ALCOCEBA (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Albert, LR>> BTW, you *still*, after several months, haven't answered my very LR>> simple question regarding software quality and how it relates to LR>> availability in retail software outlets. It's quite easy, but LR>> I'll ask it again anyway: do you still maintain that software LR>> can't be any good if it isn't in your local software store? If LR>> so, can it then be concluded that you think most variants of UNIX LR>> and UNIX software aren't any good? AA> It all depends what you want to do with your software... but basically AA> yes - if it's not easily available and *widely* used then the software AA> is basically useless to most people. DR>> The question had nothing to do with what the user wanted to do, DR>> but rather with the QUALITY of said software. THAT was the DR>> issue. AA> So you are saying that someone should use an O/S although it's totally AA> inappropriate for their needs just because it is a high quality O/S? What I am saying, is that you missed the point completely. Reread the above. The point made was the QUALITY of software and the QUALITY ALONE. Having more software than me, doesn't make it of a better quality. DR>> Every OS takes tweaking to get it where you want it to be. DR>> The difference is that OS/2 is much more stable. AA> But some take more tweaking than others. Many people will tolerate a AA> few crashes here and there - it will still save them time and increase AA> their productivity compared to hours spent tweaking a "stable" o/s. I don't see how, when they're trying to get something done and the OS crashes. I may spend a bit more time tweaking mine in the beginning, but I will save much more time than you, when I am able to continuously get my work done, while you're rebooting. AA>>> But the real problem is that there is hardly any good commerical AA>>> grade software available for OS/2. Yes, I know there are OS/2 AA>>> versions of productivity suites around, but let's face it - the AA>>> vast majority of software is made for Win95/NT these days. DR>> That's not correct, unless you contain within the context of DR>> going out to your local computer software place, which will have DR>> mostly Windows software. AA> Which is the whole point of the discussion. No, it wasn't. You made the statement that "there is hardly any good commercial grade software available for OS/2". HOW you get it is irrelevant. There IS A LOT of good commercial grade software for OS/2. It doesn't matter if you have to fight the evil monsters of OG to get it. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, which is what you implied. AA> I for one don't want to AA> spend days travelling around searching for software for my o/s when I AA> don't even drive a car - nor can I afford to spend hours downloading AA> it from the internet. I simply made a phone call to a 1-800 number and it was delivered to my door. But even with Windows software, many people do get it from the InterNet, so that's irrelevant. AA>>> They couldn't even get an OS/2 version of Doom together. DR>> Oh, they could have, but I think it just fell by the wayside on DR>> the list of what to accomplish, especially with Quake on the way. DR>> And the only reason that DOOM/2 was needed, was because there was DR>> no sound in the game, after v1.2, which was iD's doing, not DR>> OS/2's. AA> That happened because iD wanted to make an O/S2 version but IBM AA> insisted on doing it themselves and let it fall by the wayside. I won't dispute that point. DR>> I thought that the most recent Netscape/2 did support JAVA??? As DR>> for the rest, I really never have cared about all the little DR>> bells and whistles of browsers. Heck, I don't even like the Web. DR>> :) It is more tolerable with a cable modem though. :) AA> You might not care for them, but others do. Which brings us to the AA> main point: not every computer user has the same needs out of their AA> O/S and so, regardless of how technically good it might be, there is AA> no one o/s that is the best for everyone. Agreed. Never there was. Just stating that OS/2 is more stable. That statement stands, regardless of how many people use it at home. AA>>> Here's another reason why using something like OS/2 is useless. AA>>> Assume I run OS/2 at home. I learn a lot of skills in AA>>> installing, and tweaking OS/2, and running OS/2 applications. I AA>>> go out and try to get a job in the real commercial world. DR>> For the last 6 months, I have been supporting networks via a DR>> dedicated 56kb line, which are running UNIX servers and OS/2 DR>> workstations. I considered myself to be a member of the DR>> "real commercial world". AA> But you are in a minority. That's your opinion, but you have not provided data to back it up. AA> Now picture yourself as a relatively unskilled worker who will AA> be doing more or less menial computer tasks such as typing AA> letters etc. So what you're saying, is that Windows is for the unskilled? Gee, that's quite a compliment. :) AA>>> Apart from Internet Service Providers and some very old AA>>> mainframe installations, Linux (or any flavour of Unix) has no AA>>> following in the commercial world. It's all WinNT. DR>> That would be incorrect. On what do you base that statement? AA> Based on the numerous companies I have worked for. The closest I came AA> to anything non Windows was one place running Xenix flavour of Unix on AA> a 386 server with two dumb terminals connected by serial links. And AA> even then... guess who wrote Xenix? Microsoft! :) The key is... the numerous companies that YOU have worked for. That doesn't mean that everyone else has had that experience. DR>> Not too many. Most Windows users are simply not very computer DR>> literate. That's not intended as an insult. It's just the DR>> cold hard truth. I know, I've been in this field for some time DR>> now and have dealt with a lot of users. AA> Yes. Totally agreed. And the only way these non-computer literate AA> people are going to get anything done on a computer is to keep using AA> Windows. Incorrect. Even these people that you are discussing, have no idea how to run Windows, so how can that be correct? I could say the same thing about them running OS/2. Of course if we make them keep running it, they'll start to learn it, regardless of what OS it is. AA> Are you saying that for these people any other O/S but windows AA> would be better suited? I never said anything about which is better suited for them. AA>>> And in business... why would i want to run Linux? I get a AA>>> Microsoft Word document emailed to me - I'm going to be hard AA>>> pressed finding a Linux program that can read it! DR>> But the server which made the other person able to EMail the DR>> document to you, is probably running UNIX. :) AA> True, but that's not the point :) Since you were discussing ISP's and what they run, it most certainly is the point. :) DR>> The issue of this echo, is debating the strengths and weaknesses DR>> of Operating Systems. Merely saying that "my OS has more apps DR>> at the local computer shop" doesn't cut it. AA> Hmmm, we'll let the moderator call on that one I think. I think that AA> an OS not having many applications at the local computer shop is a AA> very real weakness of an Operating System. I AM the Moderator. :) Read the rules of the echo. / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat HomePage: http://home1.gte.net/thor39 ... System Halted: Press all keys at once to continue. --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * Clearwater, FL * (1:3603/73.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300025Date: 12/01/97 From: MAURICE KINAL Time: 06:50pm \/To: LAWRENCE LUCIER (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the MK> currently run OpenDos with a few utilities I wrote to suck it MK> into running my monitor on VGA. LL> Hmmm.......not sure what you mean by this but FWIW, I LL> installed OpenDos on a 386 Herc system I have here. MK> The colours are then 256 grey-scaled. I haven't tried this with MK> any other OS but I know that Windows will not allow it LL> I've run Win 3.xx, Win95 and OS/2 on this greyscale no LL> problem but maybe I'm missing something in your statement. :-) 256 SVGA grey-scale??? Really? How did you do it? What drivers are you using? I can't for the life of me get it working from any driver I have tried. Perhaps it's my video card. Maurice --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: ZOLTAN (250) 245-0099 (1:351/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300026Date: 12/02/97 From: LEE LAWSON Time: 05:56am \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Hello Justin! Monday December 01 1997 22:04, Justin Baustert wrote to Albert Alcoceba: JB> I'm willing to bet I could preload Warp4 and the latest beta version JB> of Lotus SmartSuite/2 on a system, and *any* user could head off into JB> the sunset just like they were using Win95.. I use the same desktop background in OS/2, W95, and WNT. There are times I have to look closely to see which OS I'm running before selecting an application. Take care, Lee Internet: leel@hal-pc.org ... Assumption #1: Bill Clinton is smarter than broccoli. --- GoldED/2 v2.50+16LM3 * Origin: The Politically Incorrect - OS/2 (1:106/1010) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300027Date: 12/01/97 From: LEE ROBERTS Time: 09:32pm \/To: QUENN FINCH (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Vast Majority? Upon hearing what Elliott Goodman said about Vast Majority?, Quenn Finch became enraged, and said: QF> EG>JB> So people should be made to run Win95/NT? We are fast coming to a QF> EG>JB> point where the vast majority of software will no longer be made for QF> EG>JB> the Microsoft operating systems.. QF> EG> QF> EG>Eh? Could you go into a bit of detail on the above, please? Thanks! QF> QF> QF> This guy don't even know what he is talking about. I guess this is QF> one of his wishfull thinking again. It's called "Java". Maybe you've heard of it? --- Launch Line 6.66 * Origin: The Launching Pad Phoenix, AZ (602)864-6610 (1:114/513) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300028Date: 12/01/97 From: LEE ROBERTS Time: 09:49pm \/To: ALBERT ALCOCEBA (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the21:49:4312/01/97 Upon hearing what Darrell Salter said about Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's Albert Alcoceba became enraged, and said: AA> DS> Strange, I've worked for many companies (including my own) and have AA> DS> seen many UNIX variants running in business. I might add these are AA> DS> businesses where performance, durability, stability, and "mission AA> DS> critical" operation is paramount. AA> AA> These businesses make up a small percentage of all businesses using compute They do? I've never heard of a business that didn't value performance or stability... at least, not a business that wanted to survive. AA> Most jobs are in small businesses with one or two computers at most. ??? Sure, if you're working at a fast-food restaurant or gas station. AA> Unskilled people like me are moer likely to find jobs there, not in your gi AA> "mission control" operations. It doesn't have to be a "mission control" operation to require stability and high performance. AA> DS> They laugh at Windows. Word is AA> DS> getting out about MS, and even the end user is becoming aware of ust AA> DS> how bad Windows is. I sell and support computer equipment, so I ear AA> DS> the complaints first-hand, both from business and end users. AA> AA> You'll find you get complaints no matter what OS and software is running. AA> It is true however, that people running alternative operating systems tend AA> be more computer gurus and can solve their own problems, while those runnin AA> Windows will be less computer literate or just have real work to get done AA> rather than wasting time going to college etc to become computer gurus. There's no reason that a person with little or no computer experience can't run OS/2 or even Linux in an office environment, as long as the system is set up to allow them to do so. A non-computer user won't know the difference and won't have any preconceptions as to what they "should" be doing, so they're actually very trainable. They won't be doing any system maintenance (just like they wouldn't under Windows, or any other OS), so it really doesn't matter how hard or easy it is to set up. --- Launch Line 6.66 * Origin: The Launching Pad Phoenix, AZ (602)864-6610 (1:114/513) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300029Date: 12/02/97 From: JONATHAN ROBERTS Time: 06:57am \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Vast Majority? RE: Re: Vast Majority? BY: Justin Baustert to Jonathan Roberts on Mon Dec 01 1997 09:18 pm > Maybe it's slow on *your* system.. Being kludgey is only a matter of taste, > and the standards committee is right on the edge of declaring Java a true* > standard.. Java 1.1.4 running under OS/2 is currently the fastest available > on any Intel platform, I'm not seeing slow.. Nope, it's been slow on the three systems I've tried it on, running the range of 486/100 to Pentium/133. So I doubt that is the case. And currently it has no standards since Sun is the only one who could. When it has an actual standard, it may become a worthwhile language. Jonathan --- Synchronet+SBBSecho v1.25 * Origin: The Caverns BBS - 504.831.2825 (1:396/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300030Date: 12/02/97 From: ASHER DENSMORE-LYNN Time: 02:05am \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 1 times) Subj: Peeve w/ Linux 30 Nov 97 15:46, Abram Hindle wrote to All: AH> Linux - 4 <-+- Needs MORE, no real retail! Of course not. Linux may never -get- any retail goods. At least, not while MS is here. Accept it -- and adjust. There's -heaps- of great stuff out there -- LinuxQuake, I think, and Nethack -- and Empire. Myself, I just shrug and multi-boot. Different tools for the job(s) at nd... Asher Densmore-Lynn ... A horse is a horse, of course, of course. --- Squish v1.11 * Origin: Phaenix Rampant, 'Uhm... I hit it again!' (1:130/115) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300031Date: 12/02/97 From: ALBERT ALCOCEBA Time: 01:13am \/To: ELLIOTT GOODMAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Freeware Hi Elliott! In Elliott Goodman's message to Albert Alcoceba on <28 Nov 97>, Elliott Goodman said: EG> My Netscape/2 is freeware, Albert. Works good, too. It supports JAVA EG> although I have that disabled. Read the licence agreement. I hope you are a student. Regards, Albert --- FMailX 1.22+ * Origin: Stormblade BBS +61-2-9545-4371 (3:712/320) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EG300032Date: 12/01/97 From: JOHN GREER Time: 11:39pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 1 times) Subj: Problem W/ MacOS7 [From: Abram Hindle] [To: All] [Subject: Problem W/ MacOS7] ah> I'd like the mac, if it wasn't a mac. ABeZ Check out BeOS. A friend of mine gave me a 2 hour overview of at and, well.. it is VERY nice. --- Terminate 5.00/Pro [Boycott Microsoft!] * Origin: - [neuromancer's domain] - @ (1:3407/4)