--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00000Date: 11/26/97 From: JONATHAN ROBERTS Time: 05:15pm \/To: JOHN GREER (Read 1 times) Subj: MicroSoft Prices: You decide RE: MicroSoft Prices: You decide BY: John Greer to All on Tue Nov 25 1997 11:37 pm > Or just imagine being a fledgling programmer, just scraping by ith > your day job, trying to get "MS certified", I doubt they give you > the software for free. I agree with you pretty much. I think most company-produced software is ridiculously overpriced. However, you also have to consider the money ade by Windows developers. They must spend a few thousand to get a good DEV system running, but then they made 50K/yr. Evens out... Now, you're right about someone that is just starting... But also many new programmers work on company computers at work. > Does this not scream "Let's look at other alternatives"? Yep, it does. OpenDOS, FreeDOS, Linux, FreeBSD, FreeDows, ad infinitum... Jonathan --- Synchronet+SBBSecho v1.25 * Origin: The Caverns BBS - 504.831.2825 (1:396/20) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00001Date: 11/24/97 From: MODERATOR Time: 02:12pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the que14:12:0311/24/97 Jack, M>> That'll be enough of that. We are not here to post personal M>> slams against other users of this echo, nor against users of M>> other OS's. JS> Agreed. This should have went via Netmail. In the future, please use Netmail for discussion of a Moderator's post. It's in the rules. Thanks in advance, / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat HomePage: http://home1.gte.net/thor39 ... Give your cats exercise - Throw them in front of a dog. --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * St. Pete, FL * (1:3603/73.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00002Date: 11/24/97 From: MODERATOR Time: 02:18pm \/To: ROBERT WHITE (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Robert, RW>>> What do you mean WHY is it better? Better Programmers than the RW>>> jerks at IBM perhaps? LR>> Totally subjective and unsupported, not to mention emotionally LR>> biased ("jerks"?) RW> Yeah, you know!. The name people yell at YOU!. 'Hey Jerk!'. That will be enough of that! Name calling is NOT permitted in this echo. I don't wish to start issuing warnings and bouncing users, but I most certainly will if need be. RW>>> Better Networking/Security/Multi-tasking? LR>> And we're supposed to take your word for it, with no support? RW> Prove otherwise. RW>>> Better interface? LR>> Totally subjective and unsupported. RW> Prove otherwise. RW>>> More powerful? LR>> Totally subjective and unsupported. You're new to this whole LR>> concept of "supporting one's positions", aren't you? RW> Prove that its not then. YOU made some statements and you were called on them. It is up to YOU to back them up. Read Rule 19..... 19) If a poster makes a claim, it is up to THAT person to back up said claim, if they are "called" on it. It will NOT be up to the responder to prove that you are incorrect, although they may feel free to do so. 19a) Many times in this echo, folks have made claims and have refused to back them up, claiming that it is up to the person who responded, to prove that they are wrong. In the interests of preventing future long-winded, futile and non-sensical arguments over who should prove what, that evolve into dozens of posts that resolve nothing, this practice will no longer be acceptible. i.e. According to the rules of the echo, if you cannot support your position, then don't make the statement. / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat HomePage: http://home1.gte.net/thor39 ... "Bother!", said Pooh, as he smacked Piglet for not paying up. --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * St. Pete, FL * (1:3603/73.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00003Date: 11/24/97 From: MODERATOR Time: 02:35pm \/To: ABRAM HINDLE (Read 1 times) Subj: Win95 Abram, AH> Why is Win95 so hideous? I compared it to a computer virus and I'd AH> rather run a computer virus that stealthily and silently assinated my AH> files rather than have big power monger pummel them into a pulp as it AH> forgets that I told it, it had a Diamond Video Card. Yet why is Win95 AH> so bad? It looks pretty, but hey Barney looks pretty spiffy too! I AH> know NT is a big step from the timed crashes of 95 but still you can AH> hack that OS to crud and back it's full of USABLE holes. Personally I AH> hate NT and 95. I can't stand em. The happy go lucky interface with AH> it's smug look that says to me "your powerless boy, bow before me AH> before I crash or something." I'm not anti-GUI, I'm just AH> pro-commandline. Win95 is great at that. Multiple DOS windows is how I AH> control my Win95 (usually). Yet the constant crashing is a nuisance. AH> An example of how bad I found it to be was that I was typing up a AH> Science Lab in MS-WORKS 2.0 or something old. I then go to paintbrush AH> , doodle a ring stand copy it and BANG! Crashed. But all those AH> programs were made my Microsoft. For it's OS. And they still died. So AH> I have switched to LINUX. Sure there's a problem here or there. AH> Something won't compile or it's hard to set up but it doesn't crash AH> badly. I can tell it "HEY cut that crud out! (aka kill -9 )" AH> and it stops it. The only time I have reboot is cause my video card AH> got fragged by some game. I think that's better than BANG lost all yer AH> work Windows. That's my 2 cents. I'd like some comments cause I'm AH> bored. ABeZ I just can't moderate this one. It's too funny, regardless of which Operating System you picked on. :) / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat HomePage: http://home1.gte.net/thor39 ... I blow my nose at you! --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * St. Pete, FL * (1:3603/73.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00004Date: 11/24/97 From: DAVE RAYMOND Time: 03:03pm \/To: ALBERT ALCOCEBA (Read 1 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Albert, LR>> BTW, you *still*, after several months, haven't answered my very LR>> simple question regarding software quality and how it relates to LR>> availability in retail software outlets. It's quite easy, but LR>> I'll ask it again anyway: do you still maintain that software LR>> can't be any good if it isn't in your local software store? If LR>> so, can it then be concluded that you think most variants of UNIX LR>> and UNIX software aren't any good? AA> It all depends what you want to do with your software... but basically AA> yes - if it's not easily available and *widely* used then the software AA> is basically useless to most people. The question had nothing to do with what the user wanted to do, but rather with the QUALITY of said software. THAT was the issue. AA> Most people don't care that OS/2 is technically really good and really AA> stable if it takes hours of learning and tweaking to get it that way. Every OS takes tweaking to get it where you want it to be. The difference is that OS/2 is much more stable. AA> But the real problem is that there is hardly any good commerical grade AA> software available for OS/2. Yes, I know there are OS/2 versions of AA> productivity suites around, but let's face it - the vast majority of AA> software is made for Win95/NT these days. That's not correct, unless you contain within the context of going out to your local computer software place, which will have mostly Windows software. AA> How many of the latest games, for example, have been released in OS/2 AA> versions? I still haven't seen Quake for OS/2, nor Blood nor Duke AA> 3D... and I never will. It's not needed if the software is DOS based. Quake, Blood and Duke3D all run in DOS. They are not, "Windows" games, so your point is moot. AA> They couldn't even get an OS/2 version of Doom together. Oh, they could have, but I think it just fell by the wayside on the list of what to accomplish, especially with Quake on the way. And the only reason that DOOM/2 was needed, was because there was no sound in the game, after v1.2, which was iD's doing, not OS/2's. AA> And it's not only games - there is not even a relatively new version AA> of Netscape browser available for OS/2, and certainly no MSIE. Is AA> there a Web Browser for OS/2 with full JAVA, JAVA script and Frames AA> support, that supports the standard plug ins or ActiveX additions? I thought that the most recent Netscape/2 did support JAVA??? As for the rest, I really never have cared about all the little bells and whistles of browsers. Heck, I don't even like the Web. :) It is more tolerable with a cable modem though. :) AA> Here's another reason why using something like OS/2 is useless. AA> Assume I run OS/2 at home. I learn a lot of skills in installing, AA> and tweaking OS/2, and running OS/2 applications. I go out and AA> try to get a job in the real commercial world. For the last 6 months, I have been supporting networks via a dedicated 56kb line, which are running UNIX servers and OS/2 workstations. I considered myself to be a member of the "real commercial world". AA> Now moving on to Linux. AA> Apart from Internet Service Providers and some very old mainframe AA> installations, Linux (or any flavour of Unix) has no following in AA> the commercial world. It's all WinNT. That would be incorrect. On what do you base that statement? AA> Hence unless you move into some AA> more traditional ISP's Linux skills are hardly sought after. AA> Interesting to see how the BIG ISP's in Australia are moving AA> to NT and away from Unix. And even more interesting to see how many who do, end up moving back to UNIX, or to OS/2. AA> But answer me this question: Of all the computer users in the world, AA> how many would be able to install Win 95 and set up an internet AA> connection and run Netscape successfully. Not too many. Most Windows users are simply not very computer literate. That's not intended as an insult. It's just the cold hard truth. I know, I've been in this field for some time now and have dealt with a lot of users. AA> And in business... why would i want to run Linux? I get a Microsoft AA> Word document emailed to me - I'm going to be hard pressed finding a AA> Linux program that can read it! But the server which made the other person able to EMail the document to you, is probably running UNIX. :) AA> It matters little how technically good an O/S is... if it is not AA> widely supported at home and in business, and has software available AA> for it at the local computer shop - then it is practically useless for AA> most people. That's not true at all. Many, many UNIX and OS/2 servers are out there, yet, you don't see the apps at your local store. This fact alone destroys your theory. AA> It matters little how technically good an O/S is... if it is AA> not widely supported at home and in business, and has software AA> available for it at the local computer shop - then it is AA> practically useless for most people. The issue of this echo, is debating the strengths and weaknesses of Operating Systems. Merely saying that "my OS has more apps at the local computer shop" doesn't cut it. / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat HomePage: http://home1.gte.net/thor39 ... I blow my nose at you! --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * St. Pete, FL * (1:3603/73.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00005Date: 11/25/97 From: JOHN GREER Time: 11:37pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: MicroSoft Prices: You decide The following are some prices of some Microsoft products. These are to buy the software, not upgrade. Current Issue of 'PC Connection - v.193ms' 11-19-97 Windows '95 W/MSIE_________________$178.95 Windows NT Workstation 4.0_________$264.95 Windows NT Server 4.0 10 Clients___$949.99 Office '97 Professional____________$529.95 Office '97 Small business edition__$449.95 Office '97 Devel. Edition__________$712.95 Project '98________________________$469.95 Backoffice, Small Business Server__$1369.95 [5 Users] TechNet [1 year subscription]______$649.95 MSIE Plus__________________________$42.95 MS Visual Studio Enterprise Edit.__$1399.95 MS Visual Basic 5.0________________$449.95 MS Visual C++ 5.0__________________$174.95 MS Proxy Server 2.0________________$949.95 Just imagine spending $2000.00 or so putting together a custom hardware setup with the idea that you could save some money. Or just imagine being a fledgling programmer, just scraping by with your day job, trying to get "MS certified", I doubt they give you the software for free. Is it any wonder Bill Gates is so well off? Does this not scream "Let's look at other alternatives"? --- Terminate 5.00/Pro [Boycott Microsoft!] * Origin: - [neuromancer's domain] - @ (1:3407/4) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00006Date: 11/26/97 From: DAVID WEI Time: 01:49pm \/To: PER LUNDBERG (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: The perfect System -=> Quoting Per Lundberg to Mike Miller <=- MM> What could be better for a 32 bit OS, than a true 32 bit processor? PL> Two 32 bit processors? :-) 12 * 64bit PPC Processors will be nice... faster than any intel based system even when running intel emulations... aka Deep Blue... :) ... I'd like to change the world, but they won't give me the source code. ___ Blue Wave/OS2 v2.30 --- Telegard/QWK v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Vancouver, B.C. Canada (1:153/757) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00007Date: 11/26/97 From: DAVID WEI Time: 02:15pm \/To: NICKY MORROW (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: The perfect System -=> Quoting Nicky Morrow to Mike Miller <=- NM> The PPro is optimized for 32 bit code. I have a PPro 200 but not a NM> Pentium 200 for the test. My results in the RC5-64 challenge blow NM> away the numbers by folks running the Cyrix and AMD chips. A couple NM> of folks running the Cyrix 166 mhz chips are showing around 220-240k NM> keys per second while my PPro 200 does just under 500k keys per NM> second. NM> The point of my original post was that you can get the PPro processor NM> for cheaper than the Pentium or Pentium II and for OS/2 users you get NM> outstanding performance. Actually, RC5 is a very bad test for processor performance, since it uses only some special instructions... as we all know Workstation level RISC processors are VERY, VERY fast... but since many of them lacked hardware rotate (AMD K6 also don't have it), causing them to be slower than many of the intel processor... ... Error - Pop 50c into the CPU to continue! ___ Blue Wave/OS2 v2.30 --- Telegard/QWK v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Vancouver, B.C. Canada (1:153/757) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00008Date: 11/26/97 From: DAVID WEI Time: 04:49pm \/To: SARAH NUNEZ (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: THE PERFECT SYSTEM -=> Quoting Sarah Nunez to Nicky Morrow <=- NM> Crystal is a chip maker. They supply chips and drivers to card NM> makers. The Acer AW32 and AW35 are cards that use the Crystal NM> chipsets...these are good cards to use with OS/2. ESS is also a good NM> sound chipset maker with OS/2 drivers all the way around. I know NM> Indelible Blue sells ESS based cards but I'd have to check on Crystal. SN> Are any of these sound cards ISA? Most if not all of them are ISA... Check out Acer's cards at www.aopen.com , they use plenty of Crystal chips alright... :) ... Pen*ium?! Isn't that called Faultium?! ___ Blue Wave/OS2 v2.30 --- Telegard/QWK v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Vancouver, B.C. Canada (1:153/757) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EFW00009Date: 11/26/97 From: DAVID WEI Time: 04:51pm \/To: JOHN T. HONG (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: The perfect System -=> Quoting John T. Hong to Nicky Morrow <=- NM> I'll take that challenge...I've got a copy of sysbench. Are you up NM> for it? JTH> Now how the hell can I do that? All I have is an AMD K5-90. I JTH> could honestly care less about socket 8. Besides, if you want JTH> benchmarks and the like, checkout Tom's Hardware guide, smart guy. Smart at hardware, kinda **** at software choice and OS taste... ... Have you driven a Ford over your Windows CD lately? ___ Blue Wave/OS2 v2.30 --- Telegard/QWK v3.09.g1/mL * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Vancouver, B.C. Canada (1:153/757)