--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE400001Date: 10/03/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 07:43am \/To: KYLE HEARN (Read 1 times) Subj: Operating Systems Kyle Hearn wrote in a message to Jack Stein: KH> Jack Stein wrote in a message to Kyle Hearn: JS> OK, I need to run a word processor, a text editor, a comm JS> program, a spreadsheet and a database, and perhaps a JS> compiler. What OS should I choose? KH> Text editor and comm program are common to just about KH> everything. Spreadsheet and database narrows a bit depending KH> on what kind you need as there are databases that range from KH> FileMaker Pro to Oracle (sql). All of this stuff exists KH> under windows, mac, os/2, etc. So, your saying all the above apps are available in most any platform. KH> Will you have to exchange data with anyone, and if so, which KH> file formats will you wind up needing to use? Yes, but either everyone will be using the same exact systems, or they will be using a variety of systems. If they all use the same systems, no problem. If they use a variety of systems, all data must be portable between all systems. Is there an OS I should choose in this case that is portable to all systems? JS> Thats a specific list, which OS would you choose and why? I JS> know all these apps are available for DOS, DOS/WIN, OS/2, JS> OS2/DOS, OS2/DOS/WIN, *NIX and while I have no experience JS> with MACs, I'm sure Keith will tell me they are available on JS> that platform also. KH> Running Windows stuff under os/2 is getting messier as more KH> and more of the software is 95/NT specific. If you wind up KH> going windows, 95 is probably a better choice for the time KH> being (although its less stable) I'm confused. You say running Windows stuff is messy under OS/2, but why would I do that? Are there not applications available in OS/2 that do what I need done? You say WIN is less stable, so why would I choose WIN? If I need to run the above list of applications, how would I come up with WIN as the OS of choice based on that list of apps? Obviously, if WIN is the less stable, there must be a reason I would choose it. If I choose a MAC or OS/2 or UNIX, why on earth would I be running WIN apps on those platforms? KH> Unix is probably not a good KH> choice (although its a favorite of mine) Why is UNIX not a good choice? Keep the list of reasons related to the applications I wish to run. I understand it comes with a text editor and a compiler, and excellent built in communications software. JS> So, I know the specific apps I need to run, I know all the JS> major platforms have these apps available, but, your advice JS> isn't giving me any help in making a choice? KH> It probably doesnt matter as much as you think it does You are the one that said I should choose my OS based on the apps I want to run. I'm thinking this is a minor issue, if all the apps I want to run are available on all platforms, although since UNIX comes with 3 of them built in, and it has tools available to take care of the other two, it would seem Unix would be my best choice based on what apps I need to run, yet you recommend not using it. KH> unless there's a very specific app you need to run that only KH> runs under one os. It seems all five apps I need to run are available in all platforms, so I'm still trying to figure out why you recommend not using UNIX, and worry about running windows apps under OS/2. BTW, does WIN run OS/2 apps? If I run WIN, should I worry about how well WIN will run OS/2 or UNIX apps? KH> I normally use Windows 95 for most spreadsheet work since both KH> Excel and 123 run nicely under it. You didn't say what kind of KH> database you need. I assume something simple will do. Yes, simple will do, under a hundred thousand records in several databases. What the future holds I'm not sure, it could go up to millions of records. The more flexabable the programing language the better. KH> For most general non-graphics work, Windows95 is probably a KH> good choice. I don't particularly like it, but it gets the KH> job done reasonably well. You say WIN is not stable, you don't like it, and all the apps are available on I assume, more stable platforms, yet you recommend I use it based on the apps mix, which, BTW is pretty much a standard mix. You worry about OS/2 being "messy" with WIN apps, but you don't mention how WIN is with OS/2 apps, or UNIX or MAC apps for that matter. You don't recommend UNIX, yet it's a "favorite" of yours. You seem to say one thing, and recommend another? You don't like WIN, but you use it? You say I should choose an OS based on the applications I need, and all the major platforms have these applications available, and the one that has the most built in, and is one of your favorites, you don't commend? This is all very confusing. I suspect a LOT of WIN users are just as confused about all this. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE400002Date: 10/03/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 08:35am \/To: KYLE HEARN (Read 1 times) Subj: Productivity my Foot! Kyle Hearn wrote in a message to Jack Stein: KH> Jack Stein wrote in a message to Bas Heijermans: JS> BTW, I've been running WIN95 for about 6 months at work, and JS> it is definitly a piece of junk. MS was right when they JS> said WIN95 was for those not serious about computing, and JS> PCGAG was right when they said WIN95 was for the "stupid". JS> It is so bad, that those saying anything good about it in JS> this echo have got to be lying or ignorant. JS> If thats the best MS can do for the general user, it's a JS> smart thing for them to start buying up TV stations. KH> I think you've probably solved your own problem if you hate KH> 95. All of the software you've listed is available for os/2. It's also available for Unix and MAC's. I run DOS, DOS/WIN, DOS/WIN95, OS/2, OS2/DOS, and UNIX every day. I've yet to see an application for any of those that cannot be performed on the others. I choose my OS based on the power, flexability, stability, backward compatability, ease of use, and cost. At home, I choose OS/2 for those reasons. At work, I use what they give me. The ONLY reason I find for using WIN, any version, is I HAVE NO CHOICE. At home, I have choices, and WIN was removed long ago as having no socially redeeming value, ie, it is basic porn, in living color. I don't run Unix at home because I have no need yet for a multi-user environment, the (commercial) apps are generally more expensive in a single user environment, it has little compatibility with the other systems I run, and I don't have the right hardware to run both OS/2 and UNIX at home. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE400003Date: 10/03/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 05:46pm \/To: RICH VERAA (Read 1 times) Subj: Marketing my Foot! Rich Veraa wrote in a message to Jack Stein: RV> In a message to Bas Heijermans, Jack Stein wrote: JS> It's the only explanation I can come up with. No one past the age JS> of reason with normal intellegence would do the things IBM has done JS> with OS/2. Thinking those running an $80 BILLION+ company are so JS> stupid they don't know how to sell is frankly ...stupid. RV> Ummm... It wouldn't be an $80 billion+ company if they RV> didn't know what they're doing, would it? Exactly my point. They do know what they are doing, and competing with MS in the home market is NOT it. They don't mind competing in the home market with other products much, but when OS/2 starting selling out of control, ie, a million a month, they took immediate action to reverse that trend, which would have hurt MS in a big way, since their very existance depends on DOS/WIN. RV> It's perfectly simple, Jack. IBM stands for International RV> BUSINESS machines. They are not in the business of RV> providing toys to a fickle and volatile consumer market RV> where fad and fashion outweigh quality in the buying RV> decisions of an advertising-saturated public. It's not THAT simple, because they do sell toys to the home market, and have for many years. It's just OS/2 they don't sell to the home market, they sell plenty of DOS/WIN OS's to the home market. Plenty to the business market as well, btw. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE500000Date: 10/03/97 From: LEE ROBERTS Time: 07:38pm \/To: RICH VERAA (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Marketing my Foot! Upon hearing what Jack Stein said about Marketing my Foot!, Rich Veraa became enraged, and said: JS> It's the only explanation I can come up with. No one past the age JS> of reason with normal intellegence would do the things IBM has done JS> with OS/2. Thinking those running an $80 BILLION+ company are so JS> stupid they don't know how to sell is frankly ...stupid. RV> RV> Ummm... It wouldn't be an $80 billion+ company if they didn't know what RV> they're doing, would it? That's his whole point. He's asserting that their failure to agressively promote OS/2 is a thought-out decision. RV> It's perfectly simple, Jack. IBM stands for International BUSINESS machine RV> They are not in the business of providing toys to a fickle and volatile RV> consumer market where fad and fashion outweigh quality in the buying decisi RV> of an advertising-saturated public. Again, that's exactly what he's been asserting for a while now. --- Launch Line 6.66 * Origin: The Launching Pad Phoenix, AZ (602)864-6610 (1:114/513) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE500001Date: 10/03/97 From: RICH VERAA Time: 03:05pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Script files In a message to Rich Veraa, Jack Stein wrote: JS> creator have full access to the Bourne shell, the user can only do JS> what the menu lets him do. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RV> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RV> THUS: The user does _not_ have full asccess to the Bourne RV> shell. JS> He does if the menu gives it to him. The menu can give him, the JS> user,full access to the shell or not. The fact you are in a menu JS> only means it is possible to limit shell access, it is NOT JS> necessary. Oh, come on. The only way a menu could give full access to the shell would be to have an infinitely large menu with an item for _every_ operation possible from the command line. No menu in the real world had that capability. Cheers, Rich http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/ * Origin: Birdsoft - North Miami (1:135/907) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE500002Date: 10/04/97 From: KYLE HEARN Time: 02:45pm \/To: JACK STEIN (Read 1 times) Subj: Operating Systems Jack Stein wrote in a message to Kyle Hearn: KH> Text editor and comm program are common to just about KH> everything. Spreadsheet and database narrows a bit depending KH> on what kind you need as there are databases that range from KH> FileMaker Pro to Oracle (sql). All of this stuff exists KH> under windows, mac, os/2, etc. JS> So, your saying all the above apps are available in most any JS> platform. Specific app titles, no, but as far as the type of app, yes. Quality will vary though. KH> Will you have to exchange data with anyone, and if so, which KH> file formats will you wind up needing to use? JS> Yes, but either everyone will be using the same exact JS> systems, or they will be using a variety of systems. If JS> they all use the same systems, no problem. If they use a JS> variety of systems, all data must be portable between all JS> systems. Is there an OS I should choose in this case that is JS> portable to all systems? Just about anything will read an Excel or Lotus file (excel is supported more), Word or WordPerfect formats are also well supported. Database files tend to be more os specific, although some databases have clients for most any os. I think filemaker allows macs to connect to a windows machine, etc. over tcp/ip for example. KH> Running Windows stuff under os/2 is getting messier as more KH> and more of the software is 95/NT specific. If you wind up KH> going windows, 95 is probably a better choice for the time KH> being (although its less stable) JS> I'm confused. You say running Windows stuff is messy under JS> OS/2, but why would I do that? Are there not applications JS> available in OS/2 that do what I need done? You say WIN is JS> less stable, so why would I choose WIN? If I need to run JS> the above list of applications, how would I come up with WIN JS> as the OS of choice based on that list of apps? Obviously, JS> if WIN is the less stable, there must be a reason I would JS> choose it. If I choose a MAC or OS/2 or UNIX, why on earth JS> would I be running WIN apps on those platforms? I've seen a lot of people decide to run os/2 and then want to run a windows program under it and be disappointed. Native software works best. As far as Windows stability, the software choices are more numerous there and its more common and there are less compatibility issues between file formats. It can be a bit on the unstable side, especially if you have a lot of things open at once (number of apps) Some people add Windows compatibility to their mac since they want to run Windows apps to either be compatible with the rest of the office or because the app they want to run is not available on the mac. I'm merely warning against it. To make a long story short, if your choice is made on compatibility and variety of software, Windows is probably be the way to go. If not, then I'd choose a mac next, os/2 next, and unix last based on the types of software you've listed. KH> Unix is probably not a good KH> choice (although its a favorite of mine) JS> Why is UNIX not a good choice? Keep the list of reasons JS> related to the applications I wish to run. I understand it JS> comes with a text editor and a compiler, and excellent built JS> in communications software. Find some unix apps commercially. Unless you're going to run linux, good luck. If you run linux, there are some commercial apps for it such as some items from Corel and a few other vendors. Linux, BSD, etc. come with compilers. JS> So, I know the specific apps I need to run, I know all the JS> major platforms have these apps available, but, your advice JS> isn't giving me any help in making a choice? KH> It probably doesnt matter as much as you think it does JS> You are the one that said I should choose my OS based on the JS> apps I want to run. I'm thinking this is a minor issue, if JS> all the apps I want to run are available on all platforms, JS> although since UNIX comes with 3 of them built in, and it JS> has tools available to take care of the other two, it would JS> seem Unix would be my best choice based on what apps I need JS> to run, yet you recommend not using it. Based on the availablity of commercial apps, yes. You're going to find that there are a very wide variety of unix operating systems. It's not one os and software for one might not run under another, and you're unlikely to get source code for commercial apps. A unix database is not going to be something like Access, Filemaker, etc. It's going to be something suited well for an enterprise and very scalable (and expensive). I'm thinking that you're wanting to run something other than windows and use a variety of apps and OS's which is what I do personally. You can have win95, os/2, and unix on one machine and choose what os you want to run at startup time. If you dont mind spending a bit more on os software to get several, this is probably a good choice for you. JS> It seems all five apps I need to run are available in all JS> platforms, so I'm still trying to figure out why you JS> recommend not using UNIX, and worry about running windows JS> apps under OS/2. BTW, does WIN run OS/2 apps? If I run JS> WIN, should I worry about how well WIN will run OS/2 or UNIX JS> apps? Windows very rarely runs os/2 apps. NT run/ran OS/2 1.3 apps (ancient) but not GUI apps. There is a thing for NT called open nt for unix apps (simple ones) and x windows, etc. but both are expensive and a mess to use unless you really know what you're doing. JS> Yes, simple will do, under a hundred thousand records in JS> several databases. What the future holds I'm not sure, it JS> could go up to millions of records. The more flexabable the JS> programing language the better. Filemaker is pretty easy to deal with. I know a number of completely non technical people that have done quite well with it. It is well supported on the mac and windows and I think there is a web interface (although this is something I've merely heard and know nothing else about) KH> For most general non-graphics work, Windows95 is probably a KH> good choice. I don't particularly like it, but it gets the KH> job done reasonably well. JS> You say WIN is not stable, you don't like it, and all the JS> apps are available on I assume, more stable platforms, yet JS> you recommend I use it based on the apps mix, which, BTW is JS> pretty much a standard mix. JS> You worry about OS/2 being "messy" with WIN apps, but you JS> don't mention how WIN is with OS/2 apps, or UNIX or MAC apps JS> for that matter. You don't recommend UNIX, yet it's a JS> "favorite" of yours. JS> You seem to say one thing, and recommend another? You don't JS> like WIN, but you use it? You say I should choose an OS JS> based on the applications I need, and all the major JS> platforms have these applications available, and the one JS> that has the most built in, and is one of your favorites, JS> you don't recommend? JS> This is all very confusing. I suspect a LOT of WIN users JS> are just as confused about all this. I'm saying the os choice isn't as big of a decision as you're making it out to be. From this most recent message, I'm going to go on record and tell you to spend $20 on a copy of linux, a copy of windows, and os/2 as well and find out that what I've said is pretty much the case. if you go with windows only, you'll probably be fine although you'll get mad when it crashes. If you use os/2, it will be nice and stable but you'll wind up wanting to run a windows app under it to be compatible with everyone else. If you choose unix, you'll be frustrated with the lack of app choice but will probably enjoy learning the system and will be happy with the network connectivity and internet support (netscape is available for many unix variants such as Linux, Solaris, AIX, OSF/1, etc.) but will find that file compatibility between unix and windows or the mac is poor. I'm rather agnostic about hardware and software and more concerned with getting the job done I bought the machine for in the first place. It doesnt make a lot of sense to rack your brain trying to make something do something it wasnt made to do. I personally use win95, NT, MacOS, BeOS, FreeBSD, NeXTstep, Solaris, OS/2, Warp Connect, Warp Server, MVS, OS/390, have used VMS, OSF/1, etc. Buy a bunch of systems and get used to boot loaders. --- * Origin: Roger Etheridge for ZEC (1:130/911.1008) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE500003Date: 10/05/97 From: KEITH DOUGLAS Time: 12:21am \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: OS-DEBATE RULES 1/2 Hello All! The Moderators of this echo are: Moderator : Dave Raymond - 1:3603/210.12 Co-Moderator: Keith Douglas - 1:167/310 *****RULES***** 1) This conference is dedicated to discussing personal computer systems software such as Operating Systems and Graphical User interfaces. 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Keith Douglas (1:167/310) - Co-Moderator FidoNet OS-DEBATE --- FMail/386 1.22 * Origin: The Chrono Zone (514)363-6298 Lasalle, QC, Canada (1:167/310) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EE500005Date: 10/02/97 From: DIRK CAP Time: 06:18pm \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 1 times) Subj: 5.3b patches are release Hoy Keith, DC> On this moment I create a list of all operating systems on DC> the whole world. At this moment I have about 96 OS-names. KD> Interesting project, Dirk. Would you mind sharing it? Yes I will. But I must consider with the limits of mailing inside the fido system. The list is written in the Dutch language, so I must translate it into the proper language you will understand. The list will be separated into several peaces and will be send to All. I will thank you for the interest in the list. Greeting Dirk (Belgium) ... The system on the Enterprise seems fast, isn't it..... ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: Lucas Visions (2:292/865) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EEA00000Date: 10/05/97 From: JACK STEIN Time: 10:26am \/To: LEE ROBERTS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Marketing my Foot! Lee Roberts wrote in a message to Rich Veraa: JS> It's the only explanation I can come up with. No one past the age JS> of reason with normal intellegence would do the things IBM has done JS> with OS/2. Thinking those running an $80 BILLION+ company are so JS> stupid they don't know how to sell is frankly ...stupid. RV> Ummm... It wouldn't be an $80 billion+ company if they didn't know what RV> they're doing, would it? LR> That's his whole point. He's asserting that their failure LR> to agressively promote OS/2 is a thought-out decision. Yes, for a minute I thought my words were inverting on there journey though the net. One would be hard pressed to debate that, although the specific reasons behind that decision are up for speculation. My personal speculation has always been that IBM and it's MS creation have been sleeping together since the begining of MS. I've seen no actions by either company over the years to lessen the speculation. There certainly are other possibilities, but all are less fun, and harder to explain:-) RV> It's perfectly simple, Jack. IBM stands for International RV> BUSINESS machine They are not in the business of providing toys RV> to a fickle and volatile consumer market where fad and fashion RV> outweigh quality in the buying decision of an RV> advertising-saturated public. LR> Again, that's exactly what he's been asserting for a while LR> now. Others have said that, and I tend to give it some creedance, but really, the consumer market is vast and stuffed with money. IBM taps that market in many ways, some unseen to users, but the OS/2 vs DOS is a very obvious battle that IBM overtly makes no effort to fight, and in fact, appears to fight strongly in favor of DOS/MS. Perhaps it's corruption, perhaps it's just an easy buck for IBM, perhaps the AT&T breakup scared the hell out of 'em... who knows. Jack --- timEd/2-B11 * Origin: Jack's Free Lunch 4OS2 USR16.8 Pgh Pa (412)492-0822 (1:129/171)