--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00002Date: 08/14/97 From: TIM SPALDING Time: 05:59pm \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 2 times) Subj: OS'es [1/2] [1/2] [1/2] TS> Of COURSE there's something wrong with them. They're TS> running Windows 95. Geez, Leon, I don't know why you even KD> Cool it, Tim. What's to cool? That wasn't an insult. Sarcasm, clearly intended in jest. Perhaps you should ease off that hair trigger a bit, Keith. ... "Bother," said Pooh as he twitted his moderator. --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: SpaceDock 813 * Clearwater, FL * 813-532-8438 (1:3603/160.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00003Date: 08/14/97 From: TIM SPALDING Time: 06:14pm \/To: DJ BUSCH (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, DJ BUSCH wrote in a message to ROBERT WHITE: RW> I did not say that. We are talking only about Win and OS/2. DB> Doh...wasn't Linux mentioned here somewhere? ;) You should recognize this as one of Leon's favorite tactics. If people point out to you that the facts don't support your argument, change your argument and tell them they don't know what they're talking about. Kind of elegant, really... In sort of a twisted fashion. ... If it screams, it's not food... yet. --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: SpaceDock 813 * Clearwater, FL * 813-532-8438 (1:3603/160.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00004Date: 08/14/97 From: TIM SPALDING Time: 05:35pm \/To: ROBERT WHITE (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Robert White wrote in a message to Lee Roberts: RW>> that the first place people go to buy software, thier local LR> No, that's the first place *Windows* users go to buy software, because LR> many of them aren't capable of any more than that. Ask a serious UNIX LR> user the last time he/she had to go buy software at a retail store. RW> Dont you think that if there WAS any good software for OS/2 then RW> they would at least have it on a store shelf? No, because most OS/2 users prefer the convenience and lower cost of going through the direct channel. They leave the stores to the lemmings. RW>> Harvey Noman or Dick Smith store. LR> Never heard of either of those. RW> These stores are perhaps the biggest retail outlets for RW> Software/Hardware etc.. Obviously not, if most people here have never heard of them. LR> Also, by your way of thinking there is no good UNIX software at LR> *all*, since you will almost never find it in your typical LR> software store. If that's really what you're saying, you might LR> want to rethink it, because it's absurd on its face. RW> I did not say that. We are talking only about Win and OS/2. That's what YOU may have THOUGHT you were talking about, but the discussion involved operating systems in general. You have been supporting the popular (but no less false) notion that there is no quality software for OS/2 based on the fact that said software cannot be found at any corner software shoppe, as it can for Windows. Because of this, you consider Windows to be the superior system. It is true that you won't find much OS/2 software on shelves. For that matter, you won't find much Mac software on store shelves either. And you won't find ANY for Unix, VMS, or many other systems. The fact that the software isn't on store shelves does NOT mean that it does not exist. Which brings me to Lee's original statement. Yes, you were in effect saying that there is no good Unix software because you can't walk into your local Harvey Wallbanger store and find shelves and shelves of programs for Unix. And I agree with Lee, that the very idea is laughable. Typical, but laughable. ... Damn, this Cray is S-L-O-W! Maybe I shouldn't have installed Windows... --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: SpaceDock 813 * Clearwater, FL * 813-532-8438 (1:3603/160.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00005Date: 08/14/97 From: TIM SPALDING Time: 05:54pm \/To: JOHN MEROTH (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the John Meroth wrote in a message to Robert White: JM> Replying to a message of Robert White to Lee Roberts: LR>> There's nothing wrong with conducting business on a secure web RW> How many people would actually DO that? JM> People? A market potential of over 40 billion now. I assume you're referring to dollars, not people. :-) LR>> No, that's the first place *Windows* users go to buy software, RW> Dont you think that if there WAS any good software for OS/2 then RW> they would at least have it on a store shelf? JM> Nope! Why buy space in a store aimed at the home market when OS/2 JM> users have the ability to use the future of marketing. VERY well said. ... LSD <- Virtual Reality without the expensive hardware --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: SpaceDock 813 * Clearwater, FL * 813-532-8438 (1:3603/160.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00006Date: 08/14/97 From: TIM SPALDING Time: 06:18pm \/To: KEN PIMONTEL (Read 2 times) Subj: Win95 annoyances TS> On my system, I've got the power management on the motherboard TS> chipset turned on and set to spin down the hard drives after a TS> while. When something goes to access one of the drives, the TS> system pauses while the drive spins up. All things considered, TS> I'd be more likely to explain this as the motherboard placing a TS> WAIT on the processor until the drive is ready to access. KP> I am using a SCSI hard disk, CD-rom and Iomega Jaz drive KP> (external). The Jaz spins down after 15 minutes I believe. No APM, KP> no software interaction, nothing. The external drive seems to KP> decide when it is spin-down-time. ;-) Now, a couple of minutes KP> later I click on the drive's icon. The above described symdrom KP> occurs. KP> SCSI hardware with OS/2 shouldn't show this behavior IMHO. Could be just that, though: HARDWARE. There's not much that OS/2 can do if a device puts the processor in a wait state. KP> W95 block the system when I click on anything. Surprised ? :> I'm surprised with all the diagnostic and fix-it programs out there for Win95 that someone hasn't come out with a program called Exlax... To use when your Windows 95 system gets blocked up, and the rest of the time it just helps things run more smoothly. ... Vodka + Milk of Magnesia: a Phillips screwdriver. --- timEd 1.10 * Origin: SpaceDock 813 * Clearwater, FL * 813-532-8438 (1:3603/160.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00007Date: 08/14/97 From: MARK BIRENBAUM Time: 05:39pm \/To: TIM SPALDING (Read 2 times) Subj: I'm BACK!!!! BH> OS/2 Warp 5 is scheduled for 1998 TS> Cool. Any word on features yet? 1) New FS, probably something along the lines the AIX's. It'll probably be a Journaled File System which basically means, no matter what happens, no more need to do a chkdsk. All the basic file system info is kept logged, and can be recovered after a sudden crash, not something you and I will find too useful, but of great use to network admins. It will also eliminate the need for drive letters, something I very much look forward to. 2) C2 security 3) Micro-kernel based (this does not mean they will have no Intel versions available, all though it does make it more likely) 4) No more 512 meg memory limit. 5) X11 and some other support of the UNIX graphics standards (makes it very easy to port many UNIX GUI apps) Basically, they're trying to make it more UNIX like. I've got to admit, I wonder if their plan is to eventually merge it in to AIX. Also, I should state those items above are _rumours_, definite specs probably won't be known until November. However, they are strong rumours. Number four is pretty essential. Number 5 has official documents indicating it will occur, and there are programmers working on it. There's already a IBM internal beta of the file system. And the PPC version of OS/2 was Micro-kernel based, so a lot of the ground work has already been done. Plus, Micro-kernel is a favourite pet of IBM, and they have a very good kernal already developed, which they use for other OSes. * Nereid * The native OS/2 message editor. --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Foundation - (403) 436-1345 / 437-1617 - (1:342/620) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00008Date: 08/13/97 From: LARS HELLSTEN Time: 01:57pm \/To: LEE ROBERTS (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the13:57:0308/13/97 LR> Also, by your way of thinking there is no good UNIX software at LR> *all*, No, because UNIX and OS/2 & Windows are apples and oranges. Most software for UNIX is free and comes with source code. And most of it is great software too. With OS/2, most of the freeware/shareware available is garbage and very amateurish. Why? Because most of the good programmers who release software for free use a real operating system, not OS/2. ** Lars Hellsten (lars@matrixsoft.dyn.ml.org) ** --- Telegard v3.03.b06/mL * Origin: Future Shock <*> MatrixSoft / Telegard Beta Site (1:259/412) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00009Date: 08/15/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 08:29am \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, Hello Keith! Replying to a message of Keith Douglas to John Meroth: JM>> I was not stating that there were some things that you could JM>> do from a CLI that could not be done from a GUI. KD> It certainly appears that way. JS>>>>>>> I guess not being capable of doing something is easier than KD> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nope. Note that was JS, not JM. JM>> a REXX script that kicks off my backup (A GUI program), but JM>> does it after deleting all thosw temp files that get created JM>> when programming. The REXX script is a CLI. KD> You assume that (a) temp files have some sort of pattern to their name KD> that would be easily matched and that (b) scripting languages are KD> unique to CLIs. Correct on the first count. Yes, I have seen scripting with a GUI, bit it doesn't apply in THIS CASE. JM>> recieves faxes and executes a little utility to convert the JM>> BTFAX to a FAXWORKS FAX and update the FAX log. Very JM>> transparent. KD> Interapplication communication is possible and easy under a GUI too. Not the same. I do that also. KD> (Of course, this isn't something you see in many OSes) KD>>> Use an editor... I'm not present when the FAX arrives, nor do I want to have to do the conversion's manually as I would have to with an editor. JM>> Why should I waste a couple megs of memory on a machine JM>> whose MINIMUM tasklist is 20 tasks? KD> Why use an editor that requires megs of memory? gee. My point. I don't even need an editor to do this. KD> (I can't help it if your software is bloated) It's not. JM>>>> Most all of my simple file maintenance I do from CLI as it JM>>>> is faster and easier. KD>>> For you, *possibly*, but... JM>> But what? Using the commandline uses far less memory for KD> Far less memory? Which is it? Faster and easier? I can't argue (by KD> referencing studies that show GUIs to be faster and easier for most KD> people) if you suddenly switch tunes. Fot those without knowledige or CLI based programs. JM>> Regardless of the hardware, if there is a CLI, then it's JM>> usage will require less memory and less CPU cycles. KD> Show that, keeping in mind equivilant functionality, and if you can, KD> the practicality considerations above. Sure. Using Inspectp, a OS/2 char based file manager, I can maintain my BBS related files with much more ease and speed that using FM, a GUI file nager. Granted, using the drives object would used less resources, but it doesn't give me an easy way to maintain the files.bbs while manipulating files. TTYL, John Meroth jmeroth@tbos2cla.com --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00010Date: 08/15/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 08:47am \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the Hello Keith! Replying to a message of Keith Douglas to John Meroth: JM>> People? A market potential of over 40 billion now. KD> Uh, John, there are only 6 or so billion human beings. How do you KD> propose that anything be sold to more than 40 billion people? Sorry about that 40 million. TTYL, John Meroth jmeroth@tbos2cla.com --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: ECK00011Date: 08/15/97 From: KEITH DOUGLAS Time: 04:47pm \/To: DJ BUSCH (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, DB> asking. For the record, at no time did I offer any examples DB> in support of my DB> statement. What I offered was a statement of what I, and a By posting in this echo, one agrees by the rules thereof. In this echo, we argue our cases based on fact and reasons. You have failed to do so. Hence, you have broken the rules. DB> In fact, if I want to say that I think all Mac users DB> are GUI-dependant DB> twits, and assume that one or more people agree with me in DB> that opinion, I am DB> perfectly within my right to do so. You would be wrong to do so in this echo at least on two grounds. Do not post such messages again. (Offical Warning) DB> any need I may have to be perceived as anything other than DB> an opinionated DB> asshole by you. I don't have any opinion of you, other than someone who has now broken echo rules twice on one thread. Take a vacation from the echo for a 2 week period; see you on Sept 1. (replying to this message will result in further breaking of the rules) --- FMail/386 1.22 * Origin: The Chrono Zone (514)363-6298 Lasalle, QC, Canada (1:167/310)