--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00016Date: 06/24/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 02:15am \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: Buggy OS or Buggy apps? Hello Leon! Replying to a message of Leon Kiriliuk to David Bowerman: LK> Hmm.. this is so typical! A few years ago (around 2 to be LK> exact) a big debate going around when one talked OS/2 vs Windows is LK> Netscape vs. IBM Exp. Back then they were very similar feature wise. LK> And you know what most OS/2 users said? Most of them said Netscape is LK> buggy, it is worthless, and they will NEVER EVER use it. Sure. Why would any OS/2 user use a WIN app? LK> Yet the moment NS announced they navigator for OS/2, eveybodies LK> ideas changed over night! Over night everybody forgot about the bugs LK> and were happy. When the first beta's came out, and had more bugs LK> than all the netscape bugs ever combined in one, nobody said anything LK> about it. When the final came out with more bugs than a NS win32 LK> version, novody said a word.. you know why? Because it's the only LK> good Web browser for OS/2, so how can you put it down? ;) Again, your lack of DIRECT use knowledge is showing. I used the first beta of NS for about 30 min and went back to WebEX. (BTW, a very good package though it doesn't support frames.) The second beta of NS worked fine, though just a bit bloated with debugging code. The release works great! BTW, we OS/2 users now have 6 different web browsers to choose from. LK> You know, 2 can play at that game. ;) When you read LK> newsgroups, do you use PMINews for OS/2? If so, why don't you tell LK> the rest of us how "buggy" it is, yet it is the best OS/2 newsgreader LK> around (not bad for 35$ US) while win32 users have Agent which is LK> very stable, a ton more features, and is freeware.. Actually I read newsgroups with the same mail reader I'm using for this reply. I import the newsgroups to my BBS. LK> And that's only the begining. There are a ton of great LK> applications for win32 which are freeware and much better than even LK> the OS/2 commercial applications! (another example, Pegasis mail for LK> Windows95/NT.. top notch mail reader, multiple accounts, supports up LK> to like 10,000 users at the same time over Novell netware, and an LK> address book so powerful, you can save the person's picutre!) but you LK> OS/2 users won't know anything about that, now would you.. ;) Big deal! If you understood objects you would know that we could have done the pictures a long time ago. We just don't think it is something to get whipped up about. Besides, there is something very wrong with using one application to do 100 different tasks with! Most folks resort to that method of doing things when they are stuck with an OS that will not multi-task very well. TTYL, John Meroth --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00017Date: 06/24/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 02:22am \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: OS/2 Hello Leon! Replying to a message of Leon Kiriliuk to Justin Baustert: JB>> That's news to me.. Explain why there is even talk about the popcorn JB>> to get NT 4.0 to read HPFS.. Are you running NT 4.0? Have you done LK> Not at the moment. HPFS and NTFS are much more similar than you LK> think! I've heard of people using NT4 and being able to see HPFS LK> partitions, and better yet, I've read about people using OS/2 warp 3 LK> and being able to see NTFS partitions! NT4 can't read HPFS without applying a hack. OS/2 has never been able to read NTFS as far as I know. LK> HOW? It's the drivers that count, not the partition! The way LK> data is stored on the HD isn't as important as how you read/write to LK> the drive! Under OS/2 HPFS is 16-bit! Plus, NTFS is more secure! (If LK> you run a network) Wrong on both counts, again. TTYL, John Meroth --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00018Date: 06/24/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 02:25am \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: I'm BACK!!!! Hello Leon! Replying to a message of Leon Kiriliuk to David Bowerman: LK> P.S. Say, what ever happen with Creative Labs and OS/2? Have they LK> really dropped OS/2 support PERMENANTLY!? Nope. They found out that the individual that was feeding them the line about lack of direction from IBM was a MS fudmiester. TTYL, John Meroth --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00019Date: 06/24/97 From: JOHN MEROTH Time: 02:29am \/To: LYNN NASH (Read 2 times) Subj: I'm back!!!! Hello Lynn! Replying to a message of Lynn Nash to John Meroth: LK>> - Photoshop 4.0 JM>> Color Works LN> None of those type apps are really my thing but Truespectra LN> PhotoGraphics might be closer to Photoshop; full 32bit render engine LN> and processes 24bit graphics along with text and drawings. Impos/2 LN> is also useful for basic stuff from scanners, video cameras, and LN> photo CD's LK>> - Something like 3DStudio MAX or SoftImage? JM>> Again ColorWorks. LN> You might want to add Neon Graphics 3D to this catagory in both lite LN> and high dollar professional versions. Yes, I've heard some good things about NEON. LN> If you need a hundred packages in each catagory to give you a warm and LN> fuzzy then windows is the ticket. If you started when your choices LN> were Wordstar or Wordperfect, 123 or Supercalc, Ventura or Pagemaker, LN> dbase or rbase, then not having a hundred packages in each catagory LN> is no big deal. I personally find reviewing all of them to see if you LN> really need them a ridiculous task. Same here! LN> I used to wonder in earlier days LN> why people would go out of their way to use 123 for database work. LN> Now I finally understand that it was because looking for something LN> else was a pain in the rear. I suspect that is why people stick with LN> suites even if they only use 20 percent or less of it. The only LN> thing that I find personally lacking is a high end desktop publishing LN> package. I get buy with Ventura under win-os2 but I regret Adobe LN> killing Pagemaker and then buying Frame and killing it right before LN> release. I have the OS/2 Pagemaker. It was far beyound it's WIN counterpart. LN> Most wordprocessors are so powerful now that very few people still LN> have a need for a specialized desktop publishing package. However I LN> am personally sick of these suites getting bigger and bigger when LN> most features go unused by a vast majority of users. I suspect that LN> a lot of people are starting to come to the same conclusion, LN> considering the flack that MS got over their last suite upgrade. LN> Software is being made for a small minority of users that say that LN> they can't live without their favorite little nicknak, the rest buy LN> it on pure hype. How did we ever get by all of these years with tiny LN> packages containing many fewer options. Still how to you justify LN> continuing upgrades if you don't keep stuffing more trash and LN> trinkets into them. Well, I'm still a beliver is specific packages for specific tasks with the ability to share data between tthem all. TTYL, John Meroth --- FleetStreet 1.19 NR * Origin: Tampa Bay OS/2 -- Clarion BBS (1:377/86) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00020Date: 06/23/97 From: LYNN NASH Time: 08:16pm \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: i'm back!!!! LK>Well, I haven't personally seen that. But the points remains that if LK>you don't like MS Office, don't use it! I can purchase the complete Corel LK>Office for Windows 95 (Educational) for 45$ CDN! If that is not a GREAT LK>price, I don't know what is! And it does a hell of a lot more stuff than LK>anything OS/2 has COMBINED! And not only that, Corel Office is rated etter LK>than MS Office, what is your excuse now for Corel not supporting OS/2? I am an agnostic in this debate; it's your dollars, you use what you want or need to use. However here is what Corel said in Feburary. "In testing our new Corel Office for Java under IBM's new OS/2 Warp environment, we noticed a definite performance increase," said Dr. Michael Cowpland, president and chief executive officer of Corel Corporation. "This platform is indeed one of the best operating system solutions in which to run Corel Office for Java, a suite of applications that is setting the standard for Java-based office suites, and marks another milestone in the evolution of Java as a whole." Corel just downgraded the book value of their Wordperfect C code for tax purposes, stating the move to Java code as one of the primary reasons; making the C code technology have less value. Therefore I would say your answer is in the paragraph above. IBM just released the OS/2 Java 1.1 toolkit into public beta this week, so I guess that we will see other reports soon. The above report was based on the Java 1.02 level. However press on; OS wars are still stupid IMHO. Take a deep breath, your comments in other messages only hurt your credibility from my viewpoint. For example your Database = some REXX app comment. I do high end databases for OS/2 and Windows using the same tools and they ain't REXX. The database segment of the industry would out and out laugh at your comments. You should realize that your college campus is a very tiny part of the world and the rest of it can not be painted with the same broad brush. Forrester Reasearch for example just reported that all corporate windows usage is still over 70 percent Win-3.1. I don't think that those users are grabbing up your Win-95 only apps. Companies seem to still be coding Win-31 apps along with Win-95 regardless of what the press or Microsoft would have you believe. Those that are not doing new Win-31 stuff don't seem to be in any hurry to pull their existing apps off the market. Only a percentage of the market lives on the bleeding edge. Likewise, while the OS/2 horizontal market appears to have slowed, for now, vertical market apps are still about the same. This has never been a white or black issue, more like a shade of gray. --Lynn * SLMR 2.1a * Nothing is so good that somebody will not hate it. --- DB 1.39/004485 * Origin: The Diamond Bar BBS, San Dimas CA, 909-599-2088 (1:218/1001) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAT00021Date: 06/23/97 From: DAVE RAYMOND Time: 09:42am \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the que09:42:0706/23/97 Leon, DR>> That's because they are. LK> So is an Indy car when compared to a Chevy.. but how many of LK> those do you see on the highway? ;) What's the difference? Most people still want one. :) DR>> 1) I have the applications I want and most are native OS/2. DR>> The rest are DOS based, which is only 2 or 3. LK> Name them.. Name all of the apps that I run on my system? What're you kidding me? DR>> I manipulated nothing. I simply picked up a phone and dialed DR>> Indellible Blue, when I was looking for an OS/2 app. They LK> That's funny. When I walked into their store to buy OS/2 Warp 4 LK> here in Toronto, they didn't have it running on any of their 30+ LK> machines on display. But they did have Win95, 3.1 and NT running! What does that have to do with Indellible Blue? Please try to stay with me here. DR>> I have. LK> name? Name what? You didn't quote enough of what I said. DR>> capable of much more than "WindowsXX". Any programmer worth his DR>> salt (John Meroth for one), will tell that there is no comparison DR>> between the same app written for WindowsXX and OS/2. That does LK> You still didn't name me a single applications which you think LK> is better than any win32 one. What's your point? I was responding to your statement that Windows based apps were superior to their OS/2 counterparts. DR>> This would be INcorrect. A great app is useless to me, if the OS DR>> isn't stable enough to run said app reliably. i.e. memory leaks, LK> I have never came across a single problem like that under Win95. This is where your credibility goes straight down the tubes. I put NO stock in what someone says, when they try to claim that they have NEVER had a problem with ANY of their apps under Windows95. No Operating System is perfect, nor are most apps. LK> I guess you must be trying to run some "wierd" applications LK> under it, or you haven't tried it hard enough. I'm sure you're one of LK> these users that looked at the white pages, and said "forget it!" Humorous, but NOT accurate. You know nothing about me. DR>> Then please explain to me how I Hubbed mail using all OS/2 DR>> software, ran graphics apps, word processing, database, DR>> excellent utilities, InterNet software, etc., etc., using LK> name, name, name.. Are you trying to imply that this stuff doesn't exist for OS/2? You could NOT have possibly ran OS/2, as you claim you did and certainly not for as long as you claim. It's hard to imagine you sitting there for 1 1/2 years, or whatever you said it was, running absolutely nothing on your computer. :) LK> Graphic app = PC Paintbursh under win3.1?? LK> Word Procs = E ? LK> Database = some REXX app? LK> Utils = Fdisk? LK> Internet = IBM Explorer? DR>> And I can quote you many places using OS/2. Nations Bank, LK> Any do they use specially written software or regular software? LK> Never check, did you? The CIBC bank of Canada uses special software LK> written for them by IBM. If IBM wrote that software under NT, then LK> they would use NT.. the bank itself don't give 2 cents what the OS is, LK> they just care about the software. (Unlike the rest of the people here LK> who seem to be stuck on only LK> the OS) Your statement is absurd. Nations Bank used to use NT, so they already had their applications, for WindowsNT. It simply didn't do the job and they switched to OS/2. The folks that I spoke to there, seemed to like using the new system (although they had no idea what OS the bank ran) and stated that it was faster and they didn't have the problems that they had been having. DR>> Are you saying that Partition Magic for Windows came out first? LK> Nope.. for OS/2.. but their main support now is Win32 and LK> they're leaving OS/2 in the dust. (What else is new?) According to YOU. Please provide proof of your statement. DR>>> going to keep a buggy browser on their setups, that will crash DR>>> it, as you said Windows apps can do to Win95 and they'll wait DR>>> for LK> What's so buggy about it? It still never crashed on me once, Yea, I know, you've never had any problems in Windows95. I'd buy that, but I'm out of 3 dollar bills. :) / Dave Raymond - Moderator: O[X%X%X%X]{<>======================================-- \ HS Modems / OS-Debate / BayChat --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: No Fear * St. Pete, FL * (1:3603/210.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAU00000Date: 06/24/97 From: PAUL WANKADIA Time: 02:08pm \/To: KEITH DOUGLAS (Read 2 times) Subj: To Linux or not to Linux, that's the que14:08:1206/24/97 On 22 Jun 97, Keith Douglas wrote to Paul Wankadia -- PW> KD> Did you read my post about the Out of Band errors in NT? PW> Would that be in relation to nuking port 139 on Windoze 95 KD> Indeed it would, Paul. :) I've found it to be a great way to reduce the number of people in a channel on IRC ... "write errors" abound ... --- PPoint 2.00 * Origin: Junyer's Workshop (3:640/772.3) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAU00001Date: 06/24/97 From: GREG COBB Time: 05:37pm \/To: JUSTIN BAUSTERT (Read 2 times) Subj: OS'es Hi Justin! Monday June 23 1997, Justin Baustert babbled to Leon Kiriliuk: -> Surely you jest.. Microsoft is taking a beating from game developers -> concerning everything about DirectX.. I can't imagine that. You wouldn't believe the calls I've had about the screwed up video on systems after having that installed. -> There you go, wrong again.. I've got Quake/2 here that uses the OS/2 CPIP -> stack, but you've never heard of it, so it doesn't exist.. He doesn't have a clue what's available for OS/2. LK>> the BBS using BNU or X00.. but then when I tried WinFossil, I found LK>> the BBS to be faster than under SIO 1.60! LK>> I agree, OS/2 is better.. but *THERE ARE NO QUALITY APPLICATIONS LK>> FOR IT*, He cracks me up! LK>> The only reason people still use OS/2 and IBM supports it is because LK>> it can run win31 apps. If OS/2 didn't have win32 support is would LK>> have died a long time ago with GeoWorks! Sure....He's really right about this. (haha) -> I haven't found a use for Win 3.1 yet.. I haven't even started it from y -> initial installation... I don't think I've found anything to run under 3.1 that I'd run regularly. These Windoze fundies amuse me. :) --- 2SuaveEd v.0 * Origin: Picture This... Southaven, Ms (601)280-2805 - (1:123/434) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAU00002Date: 06/24/97 From: GREG COBB Time: 05:54pm \/To: JOHN MEROTH (Read 2 times) Subj: OS'es Hi John! Tuesday June 24 1997, John Meroth babbled to Leon Kiriliuk: LK>> Yet the LK>> funny thing is that IBM is trying to push OS/2 mostly into the LK>> buisness world.. what good is that if they don't have any of these LK>> buissness capable applications! -> Funny, I have no problem RUNNING my business on OS/2! He should tell Nations Bank and Shelter Insurance this for starters. St. Francis Hospital here in Memphis is even running OS/2 on the server and workstations. LK>> Heck, when I was using Lotus WordPro for OS/2, it didn't even LK>> have a template for you to make a RESUME, yet alone a FAX cover page! LK>> Yet MS Word had that feature more that 5 years ago!! -> Give me a break! a template for a resume? Bwaaahaha! That's the "Scott Miller Factor". If it doesn't have the SAME features as the Windoze version, it's junk. -> As for fax cover page, Faxworks does that very well. Why shoulld I use a WP -> do do that when it is far easier to use the features within most OS/2 FAX -> programs to dynamically build the cover page. Don't you get it? Your Spreadsheet program is supposed to fax, your fax program should have a chess game built into it, and your file mangler is supposed to have 16 versions of Hey Jude compiled into it and in 7 languages. -> Are you saying that the TCPIP in W95/NT is somehow different? It's just as unstable as 95. :) LK>> on the BBS using BNU or X00.. but then when I tried WinFossil, I LK>> found the BBS to be faster than under SIO 1.60! This guy was using a totally different program, is using 95 and a different app then still wants to try to make a comparision??? :) -> Nope A chicken can count the number of WIN apps I use on one foot. Funny thing.....You don't ever hear one of the guys running 95 talk about how stable it is. :) --- 2SuaveEd v.0 * Origin: Picture This... Southaven, Ms (601)280-2805 - (1:123/434) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 129 OP. SYS DEBATE Ref: EAU00003Date: 06/24/97 From: JUSTIN BAUSTERT Time: 08:55pm \/To: LEON KIRILIUK (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: OS/2 LK> laptop, P120 with 32MB of RAM). My friend's laptop (he works at LK> IBM) came with 3 HD's. On one HD I installed OS/2 Warp 4, the other LK> 95 and the last NT4. NT4 runs the best and easiest with many great LK> laptop features. OS/2 ran the worse.. he had to reinstall it 3 LK> times.. and HPFS didn't even want to install! And all this on a LK> $10,000+ IBM laptop! I just wanted to come back to this and point out why running NT4 on this laptop is a total waste.. See if you can follow along.. MOBILE SUPPORT NT Workstation 4.0 -- The large resource requirements of NT have been a major deterrent in considering NT on a portable PC, but as laptops become increasingly powerful, other obstacles become more apparent. With NT 4.0, Microsoft has created a schizophrenic approach to mobile computing. Remote Access Server and its PPTP extension and multilink PPP have been added for mobile support. But essential key components -- Advanced Power Management, Plug-and-Play, Warm docking in a desktop docking station--are missing. Without APM battery life is severely impacted, necessitating frequent replacement of expensive batteries. The PCMCIA support in NT 4.0 still requires a PCMCIA adapter to be inserted prior to system boot and remain in place until the system is rebooted. This lack of flexibility defeats much of the purpose of using these credit card size adapters OS/2 WARP 4 -- Mobile Office magazine, January 1996 issue, gave OS/2 Warp their Mobile Office First Class Award. In his presentation, Peter D. Varnol wrote, " IBM's OS/2 Warp is an established multitasking operating system that has the ability to run Windows 3.1 and DOS apps. Its communication facilities include extensive Internet connectivity, data and fax communication with electronic collaborating." OS/2 Warp 4 has many advantages over NT for mobile computers. Advance Power Management 1.1, plug-and-play, warm docking, infrared Thinkpad support, and FAXWorks are all provided in OS/2 Warp 4 but are not found in NT. Remote Access Client make all of the resources of the Office LAN available to the remote worker. Mobile Office Services transparently caches files while connected to an IBM compatible or NetWare network allowing the user to continue using these files while disconnected and sync them when reconnected. The mobility, reliability and connectivity of OS/2 Warp 4 make it a logical choice for mobile computing. ****************************************************************** What your (supposed) friend needs to do is give his notebook to someone who knows what they are doing so he can actually use the features a notebook is supposed to have.. It couldn't be more clear. JB --- Telegard v3.02/mL * Origin: Courier Central \ Cashion, OK \ 405.433.2665 (1:147/92)