--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00002 Date: 03/10/98 From: DAVID WILLIAMS Time: 02:03pm \/To: BUCKY CARR (Read 3 times) Subj: Old Folks -> I think I am talking about something else. Programming logic must be -> learned somehow. Few people are prepared in regular schooling to -> think the way a programmer has to think - with rigorous logic. -> Learning that on your own requires and environment in which trial and -> success can flourish. To that end, *any* language can be used and -> once that logical approach has been mastered it is transferable to -> any other language, don't you think? Well, maybe. In my own case, I had learned to think very logically by studying various branches of science and philosophy, before I ever did any programming. So the logical thought came easily to me. But I suppose if someone has never had to think clearly before, it *may* be helpful to study an "easy" programming language first, even if it doesn't have much to do with what you ultimately want to use. I suppose this speculation should be amenable to observational checking. Do students who already know QB learn Prolog, say, faster than those who do not? Has anyone looked at the performances of real students, to find out? dow --- PCBoard (R) v15.3 (OS/2) 5 * Origin: FidoNet: CAP/CANADA Support BBS : 416 287-0234 (1:250/710) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00003 Date: 03/10/98 From: DAVID WILLIAMS Time: 02:10pm \/To: BOB LOTSPEICH (Read 3 times) Subj: Old Folks -> Ain't that the truth, David! I still look across the computer room at -> my Commodore-64 and 128, and marvel at what came "standard" in their -> operating system: BASIC, color, NTSC, graphics, sound, etc. Heck, the -> C-128 came with three operating systems! (C-64, C-128 and CP/M - all -> built in and ready to go.) I even used my VHS VCR to do a huge tape -> backup one day. What also amazes me to this day is how much could be -> accomplished with a simple 64K or 128K memory limit. There were some -> really great programs put out in those days, from games to word -> processors, databases and spreadsheets. We didn't even know what a -> hard drive was back then, nor did we have to talk about things in -> terms of megabytes or gigabytes of storage or memory. A really "huge" -> program meant it covered more than one 360K single-sided floppy! :) Yes. Of course, this is surprising only if you expect a linear relationship between memory size, for example, and utility. So a machine with ten times the memory of another should be ten times as useful. But clearly this is not so. I would guess that some sort of log/log law would be closer to the truth. Multiplying memory by ten increases the utility of a computer by a factor of, maybe, 1.1 - i.e. ten percent. The same sort of thing is true of processor speed, disk space, and so on. So, although it is certainly true that modern machines are more useful than those old ones, they are not *that much* better. We could certainly do amazing things with very little hardware back then. dow --- PCBoard (R) v15.3 (OS/2) 5 * Origin: FidoNet: CAP/CANADA Support BBS : 416 287-0234 (1:250/710) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00004 Date: 03/10/98 From: BOB LOTSPEICH Time: 02:17pm \/To: BUCKY CARR (Read 3 times) Subj: Old Folks | Quoting from a message by Bucky Carr | To David Williams | About - Old Folks DW> My own experience is that one can become a much better programmer, in DW> the sense of being able to write programs quickly and reliably which DW> will efficiently perform any required task, by becoming really DW> proficient in one language rather than by messing around with a whole DW> lot of them. BC> I think I am talking about something else. Programming logic must be BC> learned somehow. Few people are prepared in regular schooling to BC> think the way a programmer has to think - with rigorous logic. ...snip... BC> QB just seems to me to be a good place to do that. Just to add on to the above, with the advent of QB45 and SUBs and FUNCTIONs, a better structured programming style is now much easier... New programmers have to learn to write code in a top-to-bottom method, remembering that code is read by the computer line-by-line. ... ... Two cents deposited. 8-) --- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 * Origin: The Circle Circus * Dale City, VA * 703-730-3115 (1:265/124) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00005 Date: 03/10/98 From: BILL WHITE Time: 01:49pm \/To: DAVID ROTHSCHILD (Read 3 times) Subj: Individual bits DR> How do can I read the individual bits that are inside a byte? Using Boolean Algebra, usually the AND Operator is what you want. See F1 Help. Suppose you want to know if the sixth bit is on. IF a AND 32 THEN If true, it is; if false, it isn't. Decimal 32 is binary 00100000. If that sixth bit is also on in your variable "a", then the statement will be true. a = 00101010 AND 00100000 result 00100000 therefore sixth bit is on. a = 01001010 AND 00100000 result 00000000 therefore sixth bit is off. HTH FIDO: Bill White @ 1:135/110 (Miami) InterNet: bill.white@110.sunshine.com * SLMR 2.1a * Don't accept unacceptable behavior! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Miami Amateur Computer Club BBS/USR Courier V.E (1:135/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00006 Date: 03/10/98 From: BILL WHITE Time: 02:35pm \/To: DAVID WILLIAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Old Folks DW> Clearly, your first paragraph above is true. However, my point is DW> that there are languages which are so unlike BASIC in their DW> fundamental concepts and structures that, if fluency in one of DW> these languages is the ultimate goal, practicing with QB may turn DW> out to be more of a hindrance than a help. If you want to speak DW> Chinese, it's not much use learning Spanish first! Allow me, please, to disagree with you a little. My first programming experience was in the early 50's (the subject line is OLD FOLKS!) using a main frame. We did it all in machine language. That language had very little direct bearing on my learning BASIC 30 years later. Or a bit of Assembler a couple of years after that. In the message just before this one, I answered a question about how to tell if a certain bit was on. I answered: do it with Boolean Algebra's AND operator. Now that's something I learned in machine language and which applies to BASIC, Assembler, and the rest. It wouldn't matter what a person's first (computer) language was, some principles will apply to all. My first language taught me Logical Thinking - which is sometimes counter-intuitive. It taught me that if a routine is not working as I intended it to work, to sit down with paper and pencil, pretend that _I_ am a computer, and go thru the routine step by step seeing exactly what the computer is seeing. I can (usually) find the problem that way. I believe that the more languages one learns, the easier each should become. Some basic principles will run thru them, and one will learn to recognize that differences do exist. Learning Spanish may not be of much help learning Chinese, but it may help in learning Latin, French, and other Romance Languages. After learning several of them, that may help in learning Chinese. If nothing else, it teaches that there are other constructs, sentence orders, ways of saying the same thing. The same could be said for far-apart computer languages. I started BASIC with Benton Harbor BASIC, followed by MicroSoft MSBASIC, GWBasic, & QuickBASIC. I used some Assembly when I had the Heathkit H89 only because MSBASIC was not compilable and Assembly could run so much faster: I could cut an hour down to 10 minutes or less! Now, I am well satisfied with QB (and PDS) and for what I do have not needed to get into higher level languages: BASIC does what I want. For a younger person who is interested in learning programming, I would recommend BASIC (QB) as a good beginning, followed by several other popular languages. One will find BASIC principles thru them all! FIDO: Bill White @ 1:135/110 (Miami) InterNet: bill.white@110.sunshine.com * SLMR 2.1a * Never grab a falling knife! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Miami Amateur Computer Club BBS/USR Courier V.E (1:135/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 125 QUICK BASIC Ref: F3F00007 Date: 03/09/98 From: COR VAN DEN HOOVEN Time: 09:09pm \/To: DAVID ROTHSCHILD (Read 3 times) Subj: Individual bits On (08 Mar 98) David Rothschild wrote to All... DR> How do can I read the individual bits that are inside a byte? ' ------------------------------------------------------------------- ' $DYNAMIC DEFINT A-Z ' ------------------------------------------------------------------- ' extract a bit from a byte ' ------------------------------------------------------------------- SUB EXTRACTBIT (BYTE,BIT,VALUE) VALUE = (BYTE \ 2 ^ BIT) AND 1 END SUB ' ------------------------------------------------------------------ Greetings from Apeldoorn, the Netherlands, Cor. cor.van.den.hooven@babysoft.xs4all.nl ... BASIC LIVES ! --- PPoint 2.05 * Origin: BABYSOFT +31-33-4656052 (2:283/548.30)