--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00113 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:46pm \/To: JOHN PERZ (Read 1 times) Subj: Letter to Harry Browne John was heard muttering to Paul Nixon about Letter to Harry Browne -> Question: how is the scenario affected by your perception of Dole's -> chances? I.e. if it's a lost cause IYHO going in, would it affect -> your vote? JP> I'm still mulling that over myself, Paul. Right now, if it were a JP> real close race, and I DIDN'T vote for Dole, and Clinton squeaked by, I JP> would definitely be kicking myself. Right now. Yeah. Perz votes for Browne. Daily News headlines Nov 6th: Clinton wins by one vote! Upstate man found hanged. JP> Will I still feel that way November 5th? I dunno, ask me again on JP> November 5th. True. Something may happen. "And it may rain whores outta the sky." Capt. Call. JP> If I really think it's a lost cause; ie: ALL the polls showing JP> Clinton ahead by twenty points, then it becomes a lot easier to send JP> the Republicans a message by voting Libertarian. Ah, but the trouble is not what's easiest...what is rightest. JP> If Dole continues to aggravate me between now and November 5th, I may JP> just walk into the polling booth and flip a coin. JP> But right now, I still plan to hold my nose and vote for Dole. Still dunno, I think. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00114 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: GUY PUTNAM (Read 1 times) Subj: Letter to Harry Browne Guy was heard muttering to Paul Nixon about Letter to Harry Browne GP> Watch what they do, instead of listening to what they say, & I think I can see perfectly what they're doing... GP> you'll come to agree that it dove-tails. The solution to maintaining GP> your gun rights is to vote only for pro-gun people always, never for GP> anti-gun ones. But, never was something so simple, so hard to do! Your "solution," if it causes the eviler of two lessers to be elected, is as bad as the "problem." I just plain don't know, but I'd sure like to be as pure as those who do. "You are not entitled to an opinion." An opinion is what you have when you don't have any facts. When you have the facts, you don't need an opinion." ... Security, execute Ensign Putnam! --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00115 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Sean Gabb for Prez * Crossposted from: FREEDOM'S_VOICE FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JULY 24, 1996 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Sean Gabb for president Let us compare two position statements which recently crossed my desk on a single issue: gun control. Bob Dole, the big-government boot-licker and until lately chief tax collector for the police-welfare state, spoke at the Virginia State Police Academy in Richmond on July the ninth. He took the occasion to renounce, revoke and slink cravenly away from previous Republican promises to repeal Sen. Dianne Feinstein's unnatural sexual assault on the spirit and substance of the Second Amendment, the so-called "assault weapons ban." "We've had a ban on so-called assault weapons," the former senator droned to the assembled cadets, "but let's be realistic. Of the 17 weapons that were specifically outlawed, 11 are already back on the market in some other form. So what I say, let's move, that we've moved beyond the debate, in my view, over banning assault weapons. ... We've got to move beyond banning assault weapons. And instead of endlessly debating which guns to ban, we ought to be emphasizing what works and what's been tried in the great state, the Commonwealth of Virginia and other states. And we've seen here what works (is) an instant check on handguns, shotguns, rifles, all guns, period. All guns, period." "We're very happy that Citizen Bob Dole now supports the assault weapons ban," preened Bob Walker, legislative director of Handgun Control Inc. "But where was Sen. Bob Dole when we really needed him?" Still evolving, apparently. Meantime, Sean Gabb, one of Britain's few firearms rights activists (cea01sig@gold.ac.uk), writes from London that he was approached by Simon Wells, a producer for the appropriately-named (as it turns out) Chameleon Television in Leeds, about appearing for five minutes on a program about gun control. "A similar piece would be filmed with a Mr. Bernstein of an anti-gun group. Both pieces would then be shown on the 17th of July and be followed by a studio debate," Mr. Gabb reports. "Rather looking forward to this, I wrote a draft script and faxed it off to Mr. Wells. He went quiet for a few days, and then came back to me to cancel my appearance." What was it that Mr. Gabb proposed to say in only five minutes, that apparently can't be allowed even on an independent TV station in Leeds? This: "Let me begin by saying that I believe in the right of adults to be able to walk into a gun shop and, without showing any licence or proof of identity, buy as many guns and as much ammunition as they can afford. I also believe that adults should be free to keep guns at home and carry them about in public, and use them in defence of their life, liberty and property. "I am not saying this because I am a gun owner: I am not nor ever have been. I say it because I believe that the right to self-defence is a fundamental human right, comparable to freedom of speech and association. Anyone who is denied this right - to keep and bear arms - is to some extent enslaved. That person has lost control over his life. He is dependent on the State for protection. "Of course, most people watching me will say that I am mad. Do I want a society where every criminal has an gun, and where every domestic argument ends in a gun battle? "The short answer is no. The longer answer is to say that more guns do not inevitably mean more killings. ... Great Britain had no gun controls before 1920, and very low rates of armed crime. Today, Switzerland has few controls, and little armed crime. Those parts of the U.S. where guns are most common are generally the least dangerous. ... "Focusing on professional crime, gun control is plainly a waste of effort. Criminals will always get hold of guns if they want them. At most, it needs a knowledge of the right pubs to visit. All control really does it to disarm the honest public, and let the armed criminals roam through them like a fox through chickens. ... "But let us move away from armed burglars and rapists and the occasional lone psychopath. We need guns to protect us from the State. Far from protecting us, the State is the main aggressor. A low estimate puts the number of civilians murdered by states this century at 56 million - and millions of these were children. In all cases, genocide was preceded by gun control. How far would the Holocaust have got if the Jews in Nazi Germany had been able to shoot back? How about the Armenians? The Kulaks? The Chinese bourgeoisie? The Bosnians? In all previous societies, guns and freedom have gone together. I doubt if our society is any different. "Laugh at me. Call me mad. Call me evil. But just remember me when your loved ones are being raped, or mugged, or dragged off never to be seen again - and you, as an obedient, disarmed little citizen, can do nothing about it." Don't feel so bad, Sean. I don't think they would have aired it on American TV, either. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@intermind.net. The web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. *** Vin Suprynowicz vin@intermind.net "Next year in Galt's Gulch!" --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00116 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Dole and the AW ban repeal from GOA Date: 19 Jul 96 17:27:59 EDT From: Erich Pratt <74741.662@CompuServe.COM> Subject: GOA: More on Dole and Gun Control Dole Remains Entrenched -- Says America should "keep the assault weapons ban" by Gun Owners of America 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 (703)321-8585, fax: 321-8408 (Friday, July 19) -- On Larry King Live this week, former Senator Bob Dole continued his private war against the gun owners of this country. On July 15, Dole stated that, "My view is the [assault weapon ban] is moot. Just keep it. Keep the assault weapon ban."(1) He then went on to plug the instant [registration] check as the alternative to repealing the gun ban. As stated in earlier alerts, however, the instant registration check is just another form of gun control. Asking citizens to prove their innocence before they exercise a Constitutional right is anathema to the Constitution. Moreover, once officials enter the name into a computer to run a background check on a potential gun buyer, there are no guarantees that gun owners names will not be misused. Certainly, this country should learn something from the recent "Filegate" flap. ANTI-GUNNER AS A VP PICK? There were other anti-gun tremors in the Dole campaign this week. The Washington Times quoted one Dole aide this week as saying that Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge "is the top horse at the moment" for getting the Vice-Presidential nod from Dole. This should be of tremendous concern to gun owners. In May of 1994, then Rep. Tom Ridge teamed up with President Bill Clinton, Sarah Brady (HCI) and Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) to pass the semi-auto gun and magazine ban. By casting his vote for the gun ban in a narrow 216 to 214 loss for America's gun owners, Ridge's one vote can arguably be blamed for its passage and subsequent inclusion in the Clinton crime bill of 1994. In August of 1994, after GOA led a coalition of grassroots activists which nearly defeated the Clinton crime bill, Ridge continued his opposition to America's gun owners. He voted for the rule to bring the crime bill and its gun ban to the floor for a vote. (Ridge was one of only 42 Republicans to do so.) He then voted for final passage of the crime bill -- one of only 46 Republicans to do so. In the Spring of 1995, Sarah Brady teamed up with newly elected Gov. Tom Ridge to push one of Pennsylvania's most restrictive state gun control laws in a long time -- Act 17. As Pennsylvania's Governor, Ridge presided over the passage of Act 17, and then signed it into law. GOA opposed this bill from its inception and teamed up with several pro-gun state organizations to lead the national charge against the bill. Act 17 registered and taxed long gun buyers and placed other restrictions on Pennsylvanians' gun rights. DOLE CAMP PICKS ANTI-GUNNER TO GIVE KEYNOTE ADDRESS. Also this week, anti-gun Rep. Susan Molinari (R-NY) was picked to give the keynote address at the Republican National Convention in August. Rep. Molinari voted for the Brady bill, for the semi-auto ban, and for the Clinton crime and government terror bills. Molinari even carries the same grade as another anti -gun colleague from New York, Charles Schumer. Molinari has voted wrong in about 90% of the gun votes in this Congress. All these anti-gun rumblings from the Dole camp come as no surprise. GOA has been pointing out Bob Dole's anti-gun record for quite some time, and has been on the front lines detailing how he introduced (and voted for) the "Dole-Metzenbaum" compromise in 1991 that provided for waiting periods and for background checks on ALL firearms; and how in 1993, he both helped the Brady bill pass and voted for the crime bill which contained the semi-auto ban; and how in 1995 and 1996, he voted for the government terror bill. Actions speak louder than words. If a candidate, and those defending him, say he's pro-gun, one must always cut through the rhetoric and look at the candidates actions. [GOA has a fact sheet entitled "Bob Dole and Gun Control" which can be faxed to you. Simply fax GOA a request to receive this copy of Bob Dole's record. The fact sheet is fully documented and footnoted. Be sure to include your name and return fax number in the request.] ACTION ITEMS: * If you haven't already done so, please express your disappointment to the Bob Dole campaign. Let Bob Dole know that you do not support his waffling on such important issues as the gun ban repeal. You support removing anti-gun (and unconstitutional) legislation from the federal code. You do not support instant gun registration. Tell them you are watching his actions more than his words. Picking an anti-gun running mate and anti-gun keynote speakers show a lack of concern for gun owners rights. Contact Dole at ph) 202-414-6400; fax: 202-414-6345, 414-8007, or http://www.rnc.org/guest/. * Give this same message to the RNC as well (202-863-8500 or 8700, fax: 863-8820). ------------------- 1 Our thanks to the pro-gun activists of New Jersey for providing GOA with a transcript of the Larry King show. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00117 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: "Scapegoating Gun Ownwers" from WSJ Today's Wall Street Journal carried the following editorial. Until the end of July you can sign on at no cost to the interactive online edition. http://www.wsj.com July 23, 1996 Editorial Scapegoating Gun Owners Accounts in the British press recently told of the courage shown by adults during the rampage of a madman with a machete at St. Luke's Church of England infants' school in rural Wolverhampton. One teacher reportedly held two children in a protective hug as the assailant whacked at her back with the machete. There is a lesson to be learned from this awful attack: a madman will always find a way and a weapon, no matter how often politicians preach about the merits of gun control. Following two other acts of horrific violence--the murder of 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in Dunblane, Scotland, in March and the shooting and arson spree in Port Arthur, Tasmania, in April that resulted in 35 deaths--lawmakers responded with calls for more stringent gun control. These two instances differ from the one in Wolverhampton in that the crimes were indeed committed with guns. But the ineffectiveness of gun control laws in keeping lethal weapons out of the hands of violent criminals has been demonstrated by high levels of violent crimes in some U.S. cities that attempt to enforce tight gun control ordinances. And guns aren't always the weapon of choice. According to the British Home Office, there were 66 gun-related homicides in England and Wales in 1994. But there were 236 homicides using knives, 167 as a result of blunt objects and hitting and kicking, and 106 from strangulation. Despite these statistics, legislators continue formulating further efforts to control gun ownership. New laws seem all the more ineffectual when you consider that the Dunblane case could have been prevented if the authorities had just enforced existing law. Britain has strict gun control legislation requiring the inspection of where the gun will be kept, personal interviews and a letter of recommendation from a respected member of the community. But a man intent on mayhem is hardly likely to play by those rules. Yet, gun opponents are trying to capitalize on the publicity. Alex Carlisle, a legislator with the Liberal Democrat Party, has suggested that gun-permit applicants undergo psychological tests. Others suggest that the names of gun permit applicants be listed in the local newspaper or on billboards, so anyone thinking them "odd" could report them to the police. And just this week a group has called for a ban on all hand guns in the U.K. other than single-shot .22s. Would that also apply to upper crust grouse shooters? In response to the Port Arthur shootings, Australian Prime Minister John Howard has vowed to stick by his commitment to stricter gun control, despite protest rallies of up to 70,000 in mid-June. At Mr. Howard's urging, the Australian parliament has drafted a bill virtually banning all rifles. The only apparent exception will be for farmers, who will face a tough test before police will grant them access to self-loading .22-caliber rifles, or to automatic or pump-action shotguns. Mr. Howard has not totally dismissed the complaints: "I've always acknowledged there are a lot of law-abiding people who are going to be affected by these new laws." Clearly, politicians wish to appear to be "doing something" in response to tragedies. And at first glance it might appear that it is a small thing to ask law-abiding citizens of a civilized society to surrender guns. It might indeed be a small thing if the result were a safer society. But not everyone agrees that this is the result. Some police experts think the result is the opposite of what is intended, that owners of illegal guns are more likely to use them to commit crimes if they think their victims are defenseless. It is indeed fair to ask if the tragedies at Dunblane, Port Arthur and Wolverhampton would have turned out differently had some one in the vicinity had a gun and the training to use it properly. The citizenry in Britain, Australia and elsewhere would be better served if lawmakers acknowledged this and began trying to figure out how to make schools--and society in general--safer, rather than scapegoating law-abiding gun owners. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00118 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Dr. Suter replies to Mother Jones From: EdgarSuter@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:24:12 -0400 Subject: Good Morning, Gun Lobby MJ July/August 1996 The current issue of Mother Jones has a marginally amusing and extremely hypocritical piece on NRA's internal politics. I urge you to read - but not buy - the article then respond to Mother Jones . Edgar A. Suter MD National Chair, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc. --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Good Morning, Gun Lobby MJ July/August 1996 Date: 96-07-21 13:54:42 EDT From: EdgarSuter To: backtalk@motherjones.com CC: EdgarSuter Dear Editor, How quaintly solicitous that Mother Jones (MJ) wrings its hands that the elected National Rifle Association (NRA) leaders may be "gambling with the nest egg" of "curious gun collectors, target shooters, and hunters with little interest in politics." Has MJ developed a sensible appreciation of a sharp eye and a steady hand? of the conservation ethics, esthetics and wilderness skills of hunters? of the 2.5 million Americans who annually use guns to protect themselves, their families, and their livelihoods? Have our favorite collectivist anti-self-defense extremists - oops, sorry, I meant "progressives" - at MJ suddenly developed a touching affection for the rank-and-file, pot-bellied, ignorant, red-neck, philandering, racist, paranoid, government-hating, militia, Bambi-baby-and-cop-killers (did I leave out any of the left's standard, bigoted, not-very-"diverse"-"multicultural"-or-"tolerant" stereotyped caricatures?) of the NRA? or has MJ merely been recruited into the latest fund-raising disinformation campaigns of spinmeister/lobbyists Dees and Sugarmann? Regardless of your motivation, 220 years of Americans have shown and NRA members recognize that liberty has a price worth paying. After all, we recall that the Second Amendment was intended to guarantee the security of a _free_ state, not merely the security of _the_ state, and certainly not the security of the counter-revolutionaries who have usurped our 1776 revolution, trampled the Bill of Rights and the inherent and irrevocable individual and property rights underpinning the constitutional limitations on federal power. To lose our liberty while preserving full NRA coffers would be a shameful abrogation of our Jeffersonian heritage. Most of the patriots (a compliment in _our_ vernacular) who signed the Declaration of Independence lost their lives, their families, and their fortunes. For us to do less might be chic and "progressive," but we will not be seduced, cajoled, or even forced into such snivelling foppish slavery. Have a nice millenium. Sincerely, Edgar A. Suter MD National Chair, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc. a national non-profit 501c(4) physicians think tank 5201 Norris Canyon Road #220 San Ramon CA 94583-5405 voice 510-277-0333 fax 510-277-1568 e-mail EdgarSuter@aol.com **************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 **************************************************************************** --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00119 Date: 07/25/96 From: PAUL NIXON Time: 02:47pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: The Internet and guns For those of you who haven't yet made the plunge and gotten yourself an internet connection you might want to check out AT&T's deal: for AT&T customers there are two billing plans: unlimited access for $19.95/mo, or 5 free hours + $2.95/hr over the first 5. The latter is adequate if you don't do a lot of surfing and use it mainly for e-mail. 1 800 400.1447 for details. Sign up and check out Jan "Guardian Angel's" web page: Guardian Angel's Gun Site http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/ --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: DBY00120 Date: 07/25/96 From: DAVID R. NORTON Time: 02:55pm \/To: LYLE KNOX (Read 1 times) Subj: RE: KICKED OUT OF DENNY' -=> Quoting Lyle Knox to David R. Norton <=- DRN> Note: a properly posted sign is a "reasonable request". LK> Only if you see it. :-) That's another problem. If there is a sign and you don't see it, you could be arguing about that while your lawyer gets a couple of hundred dollars an hour! LK> If an establishment's =unposted=, the staff LK> still has to see you carrying before they ask you to leave. and if you're carrying concealed, they probably won't ask. Fanny packs are pretty obvious but I've *never* heard a word about mine, I suspect the store only cares about customers who might become nervous, they don't care whether you're armed or not. In my own opinion, this is a very real concern. I wouldn't want anybody leaving my store without buying because another customer made them uncomfortable shopping there. DRN> You're right about criminal trespass, see ARS 13-1502, A. DRN> 1. LK> They can nail you on this only if you refuse to leave. Or if you enter in spite of the sign. As I said, if you don't see the sign, there could be a problem. The sign is the same as being requested to leave, entering anyway puts you in violation. Take Care, David R. Norton [norton@doitnow.com] ... Read enclosed instructions carefully before opening. --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (1:114/428)