--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00024 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 01:17am \/To: BRIAN SAWYERS (Read 3 times) Subj: .40S&W mach 2 plus! -> JS> With the N320 and magnum primers, it was- 2100 fps. A little hot -> for JS> a starting load, but by following safety precautions it was -> fine. -> Is 7.0 gr the absolute minimum? Would like to make sure that I'm not -> referred to as "Lefty" after trying this, as the Glock has less than -> total support for the case head. You sound like you're talking low end. I see that John's immediate quote before your's was talking about upper end. I may be preaching to the choir, but this stuff bears repeating. A word of warning. Don't dare try Sandow's upper-end specialty loads in your Glock. Sandow is doing his stuff in a HK USP. Your Glock will not handle the same stuff. The Glocks, in all calibers, are finicky guns to load for. They have stiff recoil springs and a recoil geometry such that you can't shoot light target loads. They have throating that causes excessing leading when shooting lead bullets. Their chambers leave unsupported areas of the case head which makes it dangerous to shoot hot loads. In other words, Glocks were designed to shoot standard *factory* loads in a NARROW range. Glocks are less forgiving when you go outside that range on either end, than are other quality firearms. It would be very risky, in my opinion, to go outside of standard reloading parameters as published in recognized reloading manuals when reloading for a Glock of any caliber. Even if you were using the exact same model of handgun as Sandow, you need to understand a lot about internal ballistics before going outside of established parameters, even when someone else did it first. I know Sandow, and he would not intentionally screw with anyone. But don't EVER trust anyone on the net if they give you something outside of published loads, unless you know exactly what you are doing and understand the ramifications. Sandow has also done a good job of couching his statements and making disclaimers. In other words, if you try his HK-USP loads in your Glock, I think you will likely have disastrous results. Another thing about going outside of established parameters is that you need to have a good grasp of internal ballistics. Such as "what if you go from a heavy bullet to a lighter bullet while leaving the powder chage the same?" and "what if you use a case with less internal volume?" and "what if you seat the bullet deeper?" and "Is this powder slow enough to exhibit detonation?" "Do the chronograph results indicate flucuations such that while the average may be within limits the high end may indicate excessive maximum working pressure?" "Does the firearm show excess wear after shooting a series of these loads?" (Hint, one of John's previous handguns *DID* !! ) Do you know exactly were to look for excess wear due to excess recoil ? One of the reloading manuals, I forget which one, goes into a great explanation of why some loads are not acceptable. The *average* pressure for such-and-such load may be within the SAAMI working pressure, but due to excess variances (even when you WEIGH every charge), some samples may be way above the maximum pressure. If you go outside of published parameters you need to be able to extrapolate ALL the variables, and be able to read the signs to get feedback, AND be willing to repair or replace your firearm. I have a deal with my friends who let me test my reloads in their firearms; if I break it, I buy it. Trying a given load in different firearms really opened my eyes as who how different handguns are. It made me realize the importance of differences in: 1. Barrel length. 2. Bore diameter. 3. Bore rifling. 4. Chamber size. 5. Chamber geometry, ie, different amounts of support for the case head. 6. Throat size. 7. Throat geometry. 8. Recoil spring strength. 9. Unlocking method and strength. 10. Slide mass. 11. Recoil "profile". For instance, in 9mm, the Beretta 92 handles a very wide range of reloads (low to high power) while still functioning perfectly and not showing signs of pressure. Whereas a Ruger P85 (or P89, I forget) worked with a narrow range. On the low end, it jammed on loads that functioned fine in the Beretta; and on the high end, it showed pressure signs on loads that showed no pressure signs on the Beretta. Target loads that will function flawlessly in a Colt 1911A1 with a standard factory spring may cause stovepipe malfunctions in a Glock. If you're playing with loads on the light end, you have to prepare for having a bullet stuck in the barrel, or "detonation". If you're playing with loads on the high end, you have to prepare for ruining your firearm. If one isn't prepared for paying those prices, then one shouldn't push the envelope. --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10 (05-17-96 16 * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00025 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 01:29am \/To: DAVE SEMONIN (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Fort Huachuca -> DA> The Lyman .690" round ball fits nicely in a WAA12R wad and shoots -> fine DA> in cylinder bore shotgun. The key is to lay the flat sprue -> on the DA> base of the shotcup. When using a choked shotgun, Lyman's -> .662" DA> roundball will fit in a shotcup and still pass through a -> choked barrel. -> Hi Dave; -> If I may ask, what powder are you using? Do you cast these balls -> or can they be bought over the counter? Sounds like an -> interesting load, I'd like to try it. The only reasonably accurate load for the .690" ball I found so far was with Pyrodex RS. I was given a load for .662" balls, but haven't gotten the mould for them yet. I bought some pre-cast .662 balls but frittered them away before I found a decent load. I've tried several powders with extrapolated loads that I am relucant to share for liability reasons. For a list of loads with .690" round balls, and .662" roundballs get Lyman Shotshell Manual #3. Since #4 is out, they are selling old copies for only $5. Call Lyman at 1-800-22-LYMAN. Lyman #4 has loads for various slugs, but no roundballs. For other good roundball loads, get the "SLUG MANUAL" from Ballistic Products. Ballistic Products (shotgun reloading stuff) 20015 75th Avenue North Hamel, MN 55340 612-494-9237 Fax: 612-494-9236 Lyman makes 3 good 12 ga moulds of which I have two. I have the 525 gr sabot slug mould, and the .690" round ball mould. Lyman also makes the .662" round ball mould which is next on my list. You can also buy .690" *swaged* roundballs from CVA (Connecticut Valley Arms), I bought some from a place that sold black powder supplies. Ballistic products sells the .690" roundballs and the moulds, but overchages for both. They want $50 for the mould, plus handles. To buy Lyman moulds at a decent price, call Superior Reloading in Ohio. They want $35 for the mould, plus handles. but I can't find their number right now. --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10 (05-17-96 16 * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00026 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 01:30am \/To: LAWRENCE KEENEY (Read 3 times) Subj: Trip West LK>Since hollow points are verbotten in the peoples republic of new ersey,how LK>about glasers?They aren't hollowpoints,are they? LK> LAWRENCE KEENEY You'll have to find someone in NJ who knows the wording of that law if there is such one. A lot of state laws are now on the World Wide Web. Find the web site for your state university system's law school, and go from there. It is possible that the law states something like "designed to fragment" and not just "hollowpoints". --- SLMR 2.1a Hell no,I won't go, but I'll send *your* kids -B. Clinton * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00027 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 08:15am \/To: DAVE SEMONIN (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Fort Huachuca DS> DA> The Lyman .690" round ball fits nicely in a WAA12R wad and shoots ine DS> DA> in cylinder bore shotgun. The key is to lay the flat sprue on the DS> DA> base of the shotcup. When using a choked shotgun, Lyman's .662" DS> DA> roundball will fit in a shotcup and still pass through a choked barrel. DS> Hi Dave; DS> If I may ask, what powder are you using? Do you cast these balls DS> or can they be bought over the counter? Sounds like an interesting DS> load, I'd like to try it. Just found the number for Superior Reloading, the place to buy the Lyman moulds and handles, 513-844-1306, Hamilton, Ohio. They sell Lee products too. Didja know that Lee has jumped on the home-cast sabot slug bandwagon? Lyman started it with their 525 grain sabot slug. Lee now has 7/8 oz and 1 oz slug moulds. A guy at the club said the Lee slugs are great too. Dang! Another toy to try out. --- SLMR 2.1a Squirt guns don't squirt people . . . kids do. * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00028 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 08:15am \/To: MICHAEL ANDERSON (Read 3 times) Subj: carry extra ammo? MA> You can keep your l9ll .45's with their $900 modifications and MA> extended magazines. If I can't stop 'em with six... If you come to my neighborhood, either carry speedloaders, or else don't double-tap and don't miss, cuz the gang-bangers 'round here travel in groups of five. Let me share something I learned this month. This month I participated in my first bowling pin match. You try to shoot five bowling pins off of a table faster than the other guy. The previous month I did it, but only for funsies, not for money and not against anyone. It was no problem hitting the pin at 20 or 25 feet (I forget exact distance.) This month I plunked my money down, and GEEZE, did that cause the adrenalin to flow! It was a lesson in how being charged with adrenalin, even in a friendly match, affects one's aim. It took me 20 shots of .45acp to put five pins off the 4'x8' table. And strangely enough, I still beat the other guy. Lesson one: Don't ever give up! Don't stop until the goal has been accomplished because you never know when the other guy will screw up worse than you. Lesson two: 20 shots to knock down five bowling pins when I'm under the stress of "friendly" adrenalin levels. How many shots to stop five attackers when I'm under the stress of "life or death" adrenalin levels? You may say that the other four bowling pins don't run away when you shoot the first one. Well, I believe your average street mugger will run away when you draw on him or his accomplice, because the average petty street thug is a coward who only picks on people he thinks won't fight back, and who will more often than not run away at any sign of determined resistance. BUT, gang-member street-level drug dealers, and *doped-up* street punks don't value their lives at all. I saw it in their eyes this past winter when I went to my local Burger King during the Big Freeze one early evening. The 5-member drug dealing team had left their normal outdoors sales location to warm up inside the restaurant, without even attempting a pretense of ordering a burger or coffee, just the five of them sitting there with no food or anything on the table in front of them. They knew I was not their customer, and I knew what they were. So did the BK employees who were too scared shitless to do anything. They didn't mess with anyone that night, and no one messed with them. But millions of years of evolutionary survival instinct (or a God-given survival instinct/gut-feel if you so believe) caused the hair on the back of my neck to stand up. This was not the first group of five I've seen. More often than not, the gang-members or the gang-wannabes hang out in groups. Five seems to be the magic number. That sub-zero December night when I saw the soul-less fearless faces of *five* drug dealers staring at me came back to me when I realized it took me 20 rounds to knock down five bowling pins on a bright warm May afternoon. I now carry two extra magazines instead of one. Another incident last month taught me about dope-using street punks. A 15-year-old gangster wannabe who lives in my apartment complex had a bone to pick with the teenage son of my immediate next-door neighbor. With rock in hand the punk stood on the front porch that I share with my neighbor and threatened to hurt people and break windows. Knowing that police don't respond to reports of verbal threats (someone has to be hurt, or property damaged before they'll respond in this neighborhood) I went outside to protect my picture window and my neighbor's son. Up to that point, the 15-year-old punk was all talk, but refused to leave my porch and refused to drop the rock. Weighing 230 pounds to his 115, it was easy for me to use a little leverage to gently and quickly lower him to the ground without hurting either of us. With my one hand on his neck and my other hand on the rock, he gave it up. And I immediately let him back up. But boy, did he go off verbally. His favorite insult was "you muther f-ckin' nigger" which I found slightly amusing because he is black and I am white. Then I remembered something that my neighbor, a high school teacher (the threatened boy's father) told me about teen boys and their need to strut and talk big in front of their buddies. So I let the kid blow off steam. By taking his rock I had humiliated him in front of his buddies -- there were six or seven of them on the sidewalk in front of my porch, plus four other littler neighbor kids who were not part of his posse -- and he needed to save face by standing up to me. However, I was the one who gained the respect of those four little bystanders because throughout the incident I did not yell back, did not insult, and did not use the n-word. I retreated back into my townhouse. He came right up to my door, so I grabbed my pepper spray and went back out. He backed down a little but was still calling me "muther f-ckin' nigger" and telling me I was going to be sorry for doing what I did. He never laid a hand on me, and never broke anything, so I knew that if I called the police that they wouldn't do anything. I was determined not to throw the first punch since I was twice his size. But he was trying very hard to get me to throw the first punch. He wanted me to beat the living daylights out of him so *I* could be arrested! He was verbally pushing all the buttons, using fighting words, and making all the right threats to provoke a response, but stopping short of anything for which he could actually be arrested. The little sucker knew the system, and he was playing me. Once I figured him out, I turned the tables. I became Phil Donahue. I asked him "Do you need a hug?" I went into a feel-good sermon about letting go of the hate and learning to love. A posse member spoke up, and I offered him a hug too. They didn't know how to handle that, so they left. I reported the incident to the apartment manager who let me in on a few things. The kid is on drugs, he's been doing the same thing all over the complex, and his mother is in prison. And yes, I'm moving the hell out of here. --- SLMR 2.1a Whitewater isn't over until the First Lady sings. * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00029 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVID HANNON Time: 07:43pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: New Shotgun Slug DH>>Shotgunners, DH>>On page 39 in the July issue of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement they DH>>have an article on a new slug for smoothbore that has pinpoint accuracy. DH>>It sort of looks like a sabot slug, but with polymer tail fins to DH>>stabilize its flight. The blast of the gases from the barrel blow off DH>>the plastic sabot shell in a forward direction, as opposed to the DH>>standard sabot needing air pressure from the front to peel off the DH>>sabot. DH>>They speak of a 7-shot grouping that went into 10 inches at 175 yards. DH>>It has a velocity of 1600 fps compared to 1475 fps for Remington Foster DH>>type 1-oz slugs. DH>>The round is called the Silver Plus Sauvestre Arrow and is imported by DH>>two companies, one in Vermont and one in California. DH>>Century International Arms DH>>#5 Federal DH>>St. Albans, VT 05478 DH>>La France Specialties DH>>PO Box 178211 DH>>San Diego, CA 92177 DH>>I'll bet they're expensive, but I plan to look into them. DH>>David DH>> * QMPro 1.53 * Criminals prefer UNARMED victims DH>> * QMPro 1.53 * Criminals prefer UNARMED victims DH>>--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 DH>> * Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0) * QMPro 1.53 * Criminals prefer UNARMED victims --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00030 Date: 05/29/96 From: DAVID HANNON Time: 07:44pm \/To: JOHN PERZ (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: After the shoot To: JOHN PERZ Subject: Re: After the shoot DH>>To: JOHN PERZ DH>>Subject: Re: After the shoot DH>>John, DH>>I forwarded this post to Marty Hayes, owner/instructor of Firearms DH>>Academy of Seattle. Marty hosts Mas's LFI classes at the FAS range a DH>>couple of times each year. Thought Marty might have a good spin on this DH>>subject. DH>>David DH>>This message was from Marty Hayes to David Hannon DH>>>originally in conference EMAIL on TENFORWD (Ten Forward) DH>>and was forwarded to you by DAVID HANNON DH>> ---------------------------------------- DH>>From: Marty Hayes DH>>To: David Hannon DH>>Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 08:52:51 -0700 DH>>Subject: Re: After the shoot DH>>Organization: The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc. DH>>> ---------------------------------------- DH>> Marty, DH>>> this guy poses some good questions... DH>>> DH>>> A couple of thoughts and a question: DH>>> DH>>> According to Mas Ayoob, you will be given **ONE** phone call that DH>>> connects. If you try to call a lawyer, and you get his service, you re DH>>> all done. Therefor, you should probably call your spouse or a family DH>>> member instead, and THEY should know how to get a hold of a good lawyer DH>>> for you. DH>>> DH>>> If you want the BEST lawyer to handle a shooting, find out who the DH>>> police union retains to defend cops accused of a bad shoot. DH>>> DH>>> Is this a good idea? DH>>I wouldn't necessarily expect to get the best attorney just because he DH>>defends cops via the police union. maybe the union is broke, and they DH>>got the cheapest lawyer, or maybe the layer is the brother of the ehad of DH>>the union. But, it probably isn't a bad place to start. DH>>> DH>>> I recently had the interesting experience of posting bail for a friend DH>>> of mine. (He has a drinking problem). DH>>> DH>>> I wonder if Cloyce or somebody else who knows about this stuff could DH>>> give us a few tips on what to expect if we have to arrange bail after a DH>>> shooting. DH>>> Who is Clyoce? DH>>> Will the bail bondsman demand collateral? I presume ones spouse could DH>>> sign any necessary papers, but what if you aren't married? Might a DH>>> pre-signed power-of-attorney left with the appropriate person be a good DH>>> idea? DH>>> DH>>> Would this work? DH>>I don't know. Maybe a phone call to your local bail bondsman might find DH>>out the answers for you. DH>>Lastly, the one phone call thing might be in effect in some DH>>jurisdicitons, but when read your miranda rights, and you say you will be DH>>glad to talk with them as long as your attorney is present, you will DH>>probably get the opportunity to make more than one phone call. DH>>Another good reason to know a little hand-to-hand self-defense, in the DH>>event you ever do spend a night in jail. (One of the reasons I carry a DH>>badge). The sacrifice of time, energy and money to stay a current law DH>>enforcement officer is worth it when you look at some of the intangible DH>>benifits). DH>>> DH>>> DH>> * QMPro 1.53 * Criminals prefer UNARMED victims DH>>--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 DH>> * Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0) * QMPro 1.53 * Criminals prefer UNARMED victims --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5Z00031 Date: 05/30/96 From: DAVE APPEL Time: 01:13am \/To: CHARLES FIKE (Read 3 times) Subj: Burger King Unrepentant -> DA>You are probably aware that there are more than a few former gov't -> DA>intelligence people supporting, funding, and directing a portion -> of DA>the anti-gun movement. -> -> Not surprised.. One of HCI sister organizations is headed by a former CIA official. I think it is CPHV, but I'm not sure. --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10 (05-17-96 16 * Origin: IBMNet Connection BBS, Indpls.,IN 317-882-5575 All nodes v34+ (1:231/875)