--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00046 Date: 05/13/96 From: DICK BARNES Time: 07:03am \/To: PAUL NIXON (Read 3 times) Subj: Exploding Bullets PN> We had a situation where we were running some tests on what was then PN> highly classified stuff. One of my friends was involved. Everybody PN> was armed with issue -14's _and_ .45's. Friend decides, "heck, we're PN> out here in the desert, gonna take my personal .22 do a little PN> jackrabbit potting." PN> Friend loses clearance, goes to stockade, has to go be in the real PN> Army. I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca in '58 & '59 there was a lot of VT fuse countermeasure work going on at that time. Often pulled guard duty at some of the remote sites and at that time we were allowed to have personal firearms when we were off duty. All 3 guards were at the remote site for 24 hrs. The NCOIC would truck us out there and say "Have a good time, I'll bring your meals out." * SLMR 2.1a * God may have made man, but Samuel Colt made him equal! --- Renegade v10-05 Exp * Origin: The Powerhouse BBS! 360-886-0973 Black Diamond, WA (1:343/241) JS>Or one of those incendary or flash-bang rounds you can get for your 12ga, JS>but then we get into using a firearm... Had an interesting use for two of those rounds last hunting season-- I was hunting ducks over decoys and some jackass about 100 yds away kept shooting at the ducks that had set their wings comming into my decoys. A couple of thoes scare shells sent his way convinced him to pack up and move! * SLMR 2.1a * Ever notice there's no crime at a shooting range? --- Renegade v10-05 Exp * Origin: The Powerhouse BBS! 360-886-0973 Black Diamond, WA (1:343/241) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00047 Date: 05/13/96 From: DICK BARNES Time: 07:03am \/To: JOHN SANDOW (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Concealed makes us al JS>Or one of those incendary or flash-bang rounds you can get for your 12ga, JS>but then we get into using a firearm... Had an interesting use for two of those rounds last hunting season-- I was hunting ducks over decoys and some jackass about 100 yds away kept shooting at the ducks that had set their wings comming into my decoys. A couple of thoes scare shells sent his way convinced him to pack up and move! * SLMR 2.1a * Ever notice there's no crime at a shooting range? --- Renegade v10-05 Exp * Origin: The Powerhouse BBS! 360-886-0973 Black Diamond, WA (1:343/241) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00048 Date: 05/12/96 From: LOUIS BORDENAVE Time: 10:00am \/To: PAUL NIXON (Read 2 times) Subj: Unwarranted insult I think that all NRA members need to realize that The Headquarters can receive letters, calls, and fax's just like politicians, and if a significant portion of the mail has a problem with the organizations policy, then it may change. I am a life member and ask all to do the same, as well as, do other gun rights in their own community. 4H shooting sports program, Friends of NRA banquet, the list is endless and helps all shooters. SORRY GOT ON THE SOAPBOX, and got carried away Louis --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS) * Origin: The Nashville Exchange 615-383-0727 (1:116/19) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00049 Date: 05/13/96 From: JOHN PERZ Time: 10:50am \/To: DANE LANCE (Read 3 times) Subj: Felons & Firearms -> Actually, that does bring up some good points. I'm still -> undecided about how I feel concerning ex-felons not having -> having the right to possess firearms. On one hand, I can almost -> see the rational, but then again, as the arguement has been -> presented, "If you can't trust them with a firearm, why are -> they out of jail?"........I think I tend to lean toward the -> latter. I think if the judicial system gets its act together, -> and eveything "falls into place", then the last arguement would -> be very fitting, and acceptable! It's just that darn high rate -> of repeat offense that makes me very uncomfortable. I have "backdoor access" to an Internet Mailing List where some of the cream of pro-2nd constitutional scholars & lawyers hang out. The following cross-post comes from Professor Sanford Levinson. BEGIN QUOTE *********************************************************** I commend to everyone's attention a fascinating opinion by Alex Kozinski, for the Ninth Circuit, in US v. Gomez (No. 94-10520)(April 11, 1996). I won't go through the remarkable set of facts. Suffice it to say, though, that Gomez, a convicted felon, was charged with possession of a firearm even though he had a completely credible fear that a big-time drug dealer, whom he had identified to the feds (who responded to his help by naming him in the dealer's indictment as the key informant), had put out a contract on his life. Gomez appealed his conviction, arguing that he should at least have had the opportunity to present a justification defense to the jury. The Circuit Court agrees. The most interesting discussion, from the perspective of this list, occurs in footnote &: Indeed, 18 U.S.C. s922(g)(1) might not pass constituional muster were it not subject to a justification defense. The Second Amendment embodies the right to defend oneself and one's home against physical attack. [Citing Nelson Lund and myself.] .... Allowing for a meaningful justification defesne ensures that [the statute] does not collide with the Second Amendment. The law professor in me hopes that the United States appeals, for it really presents with extraordinarily vividness the issue of whether the Second Amendment has any real meaning. I would hate to be the lawyer for the US explaining why it is that a convicted felon is forced to face credible threats to his life from big-time thugs without being able to protect himself by arms. This is, incidentally, a real "Don Kates" case, for there is nothing at all of the republican-form-of-government rationale and the most persuasive kind of individual self-defense one. Sandy Levinson END QUOTE ************************************************************** The Alex Kozinski quoted, BTW, is a well known & widely cited libertarian judge who has a real shot at a Supreme Court seat someday. GEORGE magazine had a nice write up on him a few issues back. Regards John --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Hudson Valley BBS (1:2624/808.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00050 Date: 05/13/96 From: JOHN PERZ Time: 10:59am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: The GOA approach, Part 1/2 Pulled this off another Internet Mailing List. It represents somebodies notes on a Gun Owners of America Seminar. I've split it into two parts. BEGIN QUOTE *********************************************************** I attended the Advanced Legislative Project Management Seminar yesterday. This seminar, sponsored by Gun Owners of America and Gun Owners of California, was the condensed version of the four-day seminar that is normally presented. This post is my interpretation of what was presented, and is in no way conclusive are all-encompassing of what was presented. This is merely to provide you with a short outline and synopsis of what was presented. Dennis Fusaro (GOA Director of State & Local Affairs) and Mike Rothfeld (Political Consultant and Strategist), taught this day-long course at the GOC office in Sacramento, California. Retired Senator H.L. Richardson kicked off the meeting with a warm welcome to all in attendance, and provided some insight as to why "gunnies" are getting our butts kicked across the nation: COMPROMISE. The Senator went on to explain that the Left has become very adept at using LEVERAGE to advance their agenda, and that our lack of knowledge of CONFRONTATIONAL POLITICS and leverage is hurting us in this important fight. If we learn how to leverage the POLITICIANS by using the tactics and strategies taught by GOA and GOC, we will have incumbents and candidates who will do the RIGHT thing or suffer the consequences. COMMUNICATION There are three types of communication: 1. OUR communication 2. What the MEDIA communcates about us. 3. What the ENEMY communicates about us. We obviously have control over what WE communicate, but if we can gain an edge in one of the other communcations areas, then we will be at an advantage. If we can gain recognition in the media by news accounts or stories, then others will see us in action. This action should be seen as positive and aggressively based in principle. Our actions of inflicting political PAIN on a politician who votes against us, will be seen by the enemy, and then communicated to other anti-gun groups and anti-gun politicians. If these groups and elected officials know that the politician will be thrown out of office, or at least have his office impacted with mail/faxes/phone calls in such a way that he fears retaliation from his constituency, they will communicate the message of our strength. POWER There are two paths to power: 1. Personal 2. Indirect Most individuals seeking the personal path to power are either despots or politicians. These individuals will utilize their power to CONTROL those around them. We as gun owners should seek the indirect path of power by controlling the ENVIRONMENT surrounding those who use the personal path to power. Their environment consisists of their public life, private life, political career, contributions, votes, volunteers, publicity, peers, etc. By controlling the environment surrounding the politician, he will vote the way WE want him to, or he will feel the pain of not being in power CONTINUED IN PART TWO ************************************************ --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Hudson Valley BBS (1:2624/808.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00051 Date: 05/13/96 From: JOHN PERZ Time: 11:04am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: The GOA Approach, Part 2/2 CONTINUED FROM PART ONE ************************************************ PAVLOVIAN PRINCIPLE Politicians respond to only two stimuli: 1. Pleasure 2. Pain PLEASURE may be obtained by receiving money from contributors; good media publicity; public praise; volunteers in a campaign; peer acceptance; committee assignments; etc. PAIN may be felt by forcing the politician to spend money; convincing contributors to not donate; removal from committee assignments; bad media publicity; public confrontation; lost endorsements; and mad constituents. Until we inflict political pain on these politicians when they vote wrong, the politician will continue to vote against us. It is imperative that gun owners understand what makes the politician tick; to understand how he responds to pleasure and pain; to control his environment; and act swiftly and surely in administering his punishment. PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT Instead of mobilizing our people in electing and assisting "pro-gun" politicians, we should be busy inflicting POLITICAL PAIN. By becoming TOO involved with the politician, becoming his friend, or accepting appointments to his various committees and panels, we lose our effectiveness as a grassroots activist. Many of us gain ACCESS to the politician after assisting in his campaign. When the politician assigns us to a position under him or his political infrastructure, we then become a representative to the politician and are no longer grassroots representative to the people. He then controls US, instead of us controlling HIM. Many people become drunk with the fact that they have obtained access to the politician. They enjoy the fact that they are on first name basis with the elected official. They begin to become more of HIS friend, and have a tendancy to wander from the fight. This causes the grassroots activist to lose his effectiveness. Use extreme caution in accepting committee assignments; don't get involved in writing legislation; and turn down delegate positions. QUOTES "A politician has never done enough until we have ALL of our freedoms." -- Mike Rothfeld "Gun control is the ability to control people." -- Dennis Fusaro "If you don't ask for what you want, you will end up with less than what you can get." -- Mike Rothfeld "If you don't make the rules under which your family will live, others will make the rules for you." -- Mike Rothfeld CONCLUSION I took over ten pages of notes during this day-long seminar. Other topics covered were: Building Strength, Character, and Power; Strategy and Tactics; The Two Seasons of Politics; Qualities of a Good Candidate/Politician; Public Hearings; Importance of Recorded Votes; Working With Human Nature; Postcards -vs- Letters; Inflicting Political Pain; Literature Drops; and many other points of interest. Much of the course content will go directly against what is being taught by the NRA and other grassroots groups. Many of the grassroots groups in California are more concerned with gaining access with politicians, and with putting our friends into elected positions. The main theme in this course is excercising our POWER against the politician through CONFRONTATIONAL techniques. The techniques taught in this seminar indicate that we should be able to get ANY elected official to vote our way irregardless of who put him in office. If he doesn't vote our way, then he starts looking for job during the next election season. Much of the course content is very controvresial, as it goes against the grain of what we as gun-owners, have been taught over the last few years. The instructors of the course provide numerous examples of how their techniques have been used successfully in other fights. PDN END QUOTE ************************************************************* --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Hudson Valley BBS (1:2624/808.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00052 Date: 05/13/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 09:48pm \/To: JOHN DONOHUE (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: 22 caps JD> MS> How does MV compare with .177 air gun? JD> JD> My subjective impression was that my Crossman 1377 pistol using BB's JD> and JD> pressurized to the recommended 10-pump maximum generated a JD> significantly JD> higher velocity then the .22 BB Caps did in the Ruger. Will CB or BB caps function a semiauto action? --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: The 2nd Amendment is my gun permit! * The Spirit of '76 * (1:3644/8) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00053 Date: 05/13/96 From: JOHN PERZ Time: 05:13pm \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: betrayed The following news item appeared in the New York Daily News yesterday: BEGIN QUOTE ************************************************************ A Brooklyn mother leading a potentially explosive lawsuit seeking to hold the entire gun industry responsible for a glut of illegal firearms has a surprising weapon: A former Smith & Wesson executive turned whistleblower. In a seven page affidavit, Robert Haas, a marketing executive who helped polish Smith & Wesson's image for eleven years, contends gunmakers are aware that an underground market in firearms exists but have done nothing to improve distribution methods. "The company and the industry as a whole are fully aware of the extent of the criminal misuse of firearms," Haas said in his afidavit. "In spite of their knowledge, however, the industry's position has consistently been to take no independent action to insure responsible distribution practices . . ." . . . The lawsuit, filed by Manhattan attorney Elisa Barnes, gained momentum with a recent decision by Brooklyn Federal Judge Jack Weinstein refusing to toss it out. "No one claims that defendants intended their guns to be used illegally to hurt anyone. There may, however, come a point that the market is so flooded with handguns sold without adequate concern over the channels of distribution and possesion that they become a generic hazard to the community," Weinstein wrote in a 60 page decision. . . . Dennis Henigan, legal director of the Washington DC based Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, said Haas is apparently the first person within the industry "to step forwardand charge that the industry has been irresponsible as a whole." Anne Kimball, an attorney representing Smith & Wesson, declined to comment on Haas. But like the other 20 lawyers representing assorted gunmakers, she maintained that manufacturers can't be held responsible for the criminal use of a legal product. "Certainly we are all aware that there is criminal misuse of firearms, but it is the criminals who are responsible for that. There is no evidence that any of the guns in this case were not sold legally,"Kimball said. END QUOTE ************************************************************ --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Hudson Valley BBS (1:2624/808.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00054 Date: 05/13/96 From: JOHN PERZ Time: 05:59pm \/To: EARNEST PADGETTE (Read 2 times) Subj: Nra Hi Ernie I'm gonna take you up on your offer and tell you what's on my mind. I don't think the NRA does enough to elect pro gun candidates. Specifically, I think the NRA worries so much about raising funds FOR ITSELF that it is missing a bet here. I split my political money. I send what I can to the NRA, I send some to my state association, I send some to the Second Ammendment Foundation, I send some to a local activists group, SCOPE & I send some as a direct political contribution to local candidates. I'd like to see the NRA send out something like the following: ************************************************************************ Dear NRA Member, We are endorsing Joe Somebody for Congress in your Congressional District. We urge you to vote for Joe Somebody, and to urge all of your family and friends to vote for him. Because Federal Election Law limits us to contributing only $5000 to a candidate, we are urging all of our members in your Congressional District to make a direct campaign contribution to Joe Somebody. We are enclosing a pre-addressed envelope that will take your contribution directly to his campaign. Please make your check or money order payable to the "Committee to Elect Joe Somebody" *********************************************************************** The NRA would include an envelope pre-addressed to the campaign. It should be colorful, maybe with an NRA eagle graphic, and have something like "A concerned gunowner" up where the return address would go. The idea is that the campaign would take notice of how many checks are coming in from gun owners and be impressed by how many there are. If Joe Somebody gets elected, he's gonna remember just how much he owes to gun owners. Regards John --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Hudson Valley BBS (1:2624/808.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 275 GUNS Ref: D5K00055 Date: 05/13/96 From: VERN HUMPHREY Time: 06:36am \/To: JOHN SANDOW (Read 2 times) Subj: Guns JS>VH>JT> VH> But yes -- the punks that attacked him are a bunch of real crimin JS>VH>JT> VH> and he did us a service by stopping them at least once. JS>VH>JT>Even if it was half assed... JS>VH>Which brings us to a point -- if you carry, you need to think it JS>VH>through: IF you have to shoot, what are you going to do AFTERWARDS? JS>VH>What are your plans in the minutes and hours IMMEDIATELY following the JS>VH>shooting? JS>Possibly the most important question one has to answer if using a firearm JS>for defense, even before chambering and ammo type. Absolutely -- questions like "how much insurance should I have, and who should I get it from?" and "Who should I pick for my lawyer?" are key questions. I'd go so far as to suggest -- if it could be done -- rehearsing the after-shooting actions as thoroughly as you practice the act of shooting. --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2 * Origin: LGC-BBS - ON*TARGET Communications (1:271/145)