--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100001 Date: 01/30/98 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:11pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 2 times) Subj: POWER SOURCE/PUMP Hi Jim On (27 Jan 98) Jim Dunmyer wrote to Alec Cameron... JD> Hot water heating boilers are very common in the US, Alec. They run at o JD> more than city water pressure, usually much less. I believe that they JD> incorporate a pressure regulator on the water feed line. They also JD> incorporate extensive controls to keep the temperature from ever ctually JD> boiling the water, only heating it. The 'radiators' are usually aseboard JD> units today. "controllers" being less than perfect, I guess many installations have a ventilated header tank so that the pressure is incapable of rising excessively, even with max heating maintained. JD> Steam heat was common many years ago, again using low-pressure boilers. I know that in northern Europe, some thermal power plants sell piped steam, metered at each home, for District heating. JD> I've never seen a steam heat system in a modern home however. The alternatives are so attractive. Like really bright jumpers! Cheers........ALEC ... >>>>>> I have a filing system but I have misplaced it <<<<<< --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100002 Date: 01/30/98 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:17pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 2 times) Subj: POWER FACTOR IN DC CC Hi Jim On (27 Jan 98) Jim Dunmyer wrote to Alec Cameron... JD> As you say, there are more good reasons for using a few large generating JD> plants than there are for many small ones. Big plants are much more JD> efficient in many ways (fuel, labor, and *especially* capital costs), JD> pollute less on a per-KWHR basis, and don't have the NIMBY problem. (Not JD> In My BackYard) I sure hope your message got a big audience. I get a bit sick of the cry "why doesn't the Government....." JD> Same goes for heat: I've heated my home with wood for a couple of seasons, JD> just to see if I could do it. Still heat the shop with a woodstove. Wood burning is a "nice" rustic practice and the supporters are paying for a hobby. JD> However, oil prices are at an all-time low, so who's to say that we're JD> wrong? I'll be brave and say you are wrong. Low price doesn't justify excessive use. The low price is a transient thing. It will rise, and fall, and rise, and.... The more we burn greedily, the worse the air we breathe, the worse the arming of the planet, the less food can be grown. In an era of rapid population growth. Stop the world I wanna get off! Cheers......ALEC ... Good families are generally worse than any others [Anthony Hope] --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100003 Date: 01/30/98 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:25pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 2 times) Subj: HELP HOME GENERATOR Hi Jim On (27 Jan 98) Jim Dunmyer wrote to Alec Cameron... JD> He recommends using an approved transfer switch. If he uses one like JD> Northern sells, he'll switch only the necessary loads, alleviating the JD> problem you describe of overloading the generator. Correct practice. But so many technically DIY foll cut corners, Gung Ho! to hell with authority. On this echo, there is the risk of giving advice that could lead to injury. Could even be actionable! JD> I probably sound like a broken record, but if you have a standby JD> generator, it's imperative that you test it on a regular basis. Agreed. But after I tested my copper bodied water type [soda- acid] extinguisher, the maintenance service refused to refill it due to the date of mfr being too long ago. Sold it to an antique shop. No the timber house idn't burn down later, we sold and moved to a brick one. JD> A few weeks ago on a rainy day, I decided that it was time to P.M. the JD> generator and found it wouldn't start. Omigosh. Excess accummulated carbon from previous test runs? Get a diesel!! Cheers.......ALEC PS I just left the room and tested the smoke detectors. ... ....Dead men tell no solicitors! --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100004 Date: 01/30/98 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:36pm \/To: MIKE ROSS (Read 2 times) Subj: Help Home Generator Hi Mike On (27 Jan 98) MIKE ROSS wrote to Alec Cameron... MR> For this sort of mod I'd certainly have a master electrician do the ork. MR> Principally for the insurance concerns as you very wisely mention. AC> Incidentally, you are unlikely to own enough generator capacity to AC> allow an *Automatic* transfer. Make it non- auto, and invoke a Manual AC> change AFTER turning off the electric cooker, dishwasher etc which AC> might otherwise overload your generator. Another thing........ AC motors require typically, from 8 to 12 times full rated current, while accelerating from rest. That is often beyond the capability of a small generator. For example, it is *very* improbable that a 4HP petrol gen set, would be able to run a 2HP elec motor. MR> Thanks for the really thoughtful straight thinking, Alec. Well, I was a part time polytechnic teacher for 22 years. It's hard o shake those bad old habits ;-) Cheers..........ALEC ... ........BUNDANOON, on a dirt track leading to the Info Superhighway --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100005 Date: 01/30/98 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:43pm \/To: MIKE ROSS (Read 2 times) Subj: Power Factor in DC cc Hi Mike On (27 Jan 98) MIKE ROSS wrote to Alec Cameron... MR> I don't disagree that massive generation far away can be cheaper but it MR> is undeniably more vulnerable. Boy, did we ever just learn it the hard MR> way! Your recent experience, will save future lives. Every disaster is an opportunity. People learn how to live rough, work with neighbours, insulate houses better- so many of the HOMEPOWER features. MR> It is utter devastation in the power grid. Miles and miles of downed MR> lines. Once a tower [or wood pole] falls, the adjacent one is overloaded: loss of tension on one side, excess tension on the other side. A kind of domino effect. So the neighbour falls, then the next and so on. Most towers are designed for suspension duty, the strain towers [those fat ones, broad at base] tend to be placed at route "corners" ie where the route turns. The strain tower is proportioned to resist the overturning force that results rom broken conductors. All towers COULD be built as strain structures but the visual impact would raise objection. The linesmen who MR> came up from the USA all said they've never ever seen anything like it. Well...... USA is nearer the equator than Canada huh? so what could they now. Especially the crews from Hawaii! MR> Perhaps too much automation makes MR> everyone complacent and forget how to react to situations which can MR> arise. eg Pacific North East Blackout. Some good lessons forgotten? Like * airliners circling blacked our airports * substations controllers in the dark, because switchboard indicating lamps were AC not DC fed. * Highways choked with autos out of gas, because gas stations could not pump gas manually. Cheers....ALEC ... ........The hasty and the slow meet at the ferry --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100006 Date: 01/31/98 From: BRIEN PAGE Time: 10:02am \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 2 times) Subj: POWER FACTOR IN DC CC > Which is why mom and dad only heated with a wood stove for one > winter after I married and moved out. :-) Sure wish I had a spot to > put that Ashley wood stove. JD> Which is why MY Dad got a riding lawn tractor after I moved out. grin>> Our yard was too small for a lawn tracter, and the riding mower never could be taught to go out and get the wood, bring it back, split it, or stack it. Bad Toro. :-) JD> After reading about the ice storm, I told my wife that it might be a good JD> idea to leave our stove in place, even if we haven't used it for several JD> years. If I had a spot for one I would love to have a wood stove for times like at. Brien --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: NUT N' MUCH BBS Madison TN (615 868-8370 ISDN/Analog) (1:116/305) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2100007 Date: 01/30/98 From: TIM HUTZLER Time: 09:35am \/To: GARY COLLIER (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: power source/pump TH>GC>I amn attempting to keep the combustion proccess outside, and really TH>GC>do not have eneough room for a woodstove, but I really like the idea of TH>Have you considered gas powered cogeneration? GC>Are you talking natural gas powered generator? Not necessearily, though methane would probably be most economical. I am refering to any carbon fuel powered engine. GC>regular gasoline would seem too wasteful & dependent upon supply. It is not any more ineffient than methane. GC>It is not really an option for me as I am looking for supplemental GC>heat on the cheap. IT would cost me a minimum of $1500 to get PG&E GC>too my property now that Govenor Pete Wilson sold out the public GC>by decimating the PUC. I'm sure that's how you feel. But those of us on the other side would would end up paying for part of your expense.... Well, please understand that I consider it more fair that *you* pay the full cost, since you are out in the boonies. [grin] Do you have a creek running nearby? If not, then a home generator with batteries is the only way you can go. Using the heat byproduct in the winter makes it very cost effective. If you live in the lower elevations and it's sunny, solar would be better - if you can afford the up front costs. GC>Then I would be looking at quite a few $$$$ to get a generator AND GC>wired so power could be sold to SMUD. I realize it can work in GC>many areas, but in Sacramento, with our relatively low electric GC>rates, I doubt that it would pencil out; particularly when you GC>factor in cost of repairs to the generator over time. If you plan to live there for awhile, the $1500 is the cheapest option. TH>All the electricity you need, and all the heat you need. Any extra TH>electricity you can sell back too the grid. GC>Do you have this sort of system?? Did you get a surplus unit out of GC>Beale? Actually, you can get rebuilt diesel powered generators fairly cheaply out of Harbor Freight, Company. It's been awhile, but I have seen 15KW and 25KW units. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: Madman BBS * Chico, California * 530-893-8079 * (1:119/88) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2200000 Date: 02/01/98 From: ELVIS HARGROVE Time: 07:35am \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Feb Rules HOMEPOWR Echo Rules This is a periodic reminder of the guidelines for the HOMEPOWR fidonet echo. They were originally used by Don Kulha as the purpose for the alt.energy.renewable Usenet newsgroup. Lacking the original guidelines for the HOMEPOWR fidonet echo, we will be using these for the echo, as well. "The purpose of HOMEPOWR fidonet echo will be to promote open discussion of all aspects of practical renewable energy technology, its application and development. Emphasis will be on real-world systems and technology available now and how people apply it and live with it. This echo is inspired by Home Power magazine and the practical, hands-on, gentle-on-the-Earth approach to renewable energy that it promotes. Some subjects for discussion include solar power, photovoltaics, hydropower, wind power, EV's, energy conservation, solar cookers and cooking, batteries, waste minimization, solar hot water, water pumping and the products available in this field." We're into safe, clean home-made energy using the only nuke we'll ever need (conveniently 93 million miles away." In the interest of making it easy for our echo members to find the Homepower Magazine it has been suggested that we include their address in our rules, so here it is, courtesy of Ian Woofenden. Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 $22.50 per year 800-707-6585 HOMEPOWR echo on FidoNet is moderated by: Elvis Hargrove @ 1:397/6 Jim Dunmyer @ 1:123/100 Don Kulha Moderator emeritus. --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j' * Origin: BOO! Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas (1:397/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2200001 Date: 01/31/98 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 02:01pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: POWER FACTOR IN DC CC Jim Dunmyer said the following to Brien Page on the subject of POWER FACTOR IN DC CC (30 Jan 98 08:31:35) >JD> So you must lift & carry 20 tons of wood over a Winter, or 40,000 lbs! >JD> That might be OK for a younger person, but what about the old or firm? > > Which is why mom and dad only heated with a wood stove for one > winter after I married and moved out. :-) Sure wish I had a spot to > put that Ashley wood stove. JD> Which is why MY Dad got a riding lawn tractor after I moved out. JD> <> JD> After reading about the ice storm, I told my wife that it might be a JD> good idea to leave our stove in place, even if we haven't used it for JD> several years. Really great advice. My next door neighbor went around this fall giving away his firewood because his wife didn't like the wood stove sooting up the walls. On the 3rd day of the outage I found him scrambling for anything that burned. Luckily another neighbor who had decided to evacuate let him cart away all the logs he wanted. My own wood being limited I helped by stringing an extension cord to his oil burner. We all managed okay then. Still in the worst of it we were having maybe an average of 1 death a day from fire, asphyxiation, exposure, and so on. Most of these preventable too. ... Ice Storm of the Century refugee. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: F2200002 Date: 02/01/98 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 11:24am \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Power Factor in DC cc Alec Cameron said the following to MIKE ROSS on the subject of Power Factor in DC cc (30 Jan 98 18:43:38) AC> On (27 Jan 98) MIKE ROSS wrote to Alec Cameron... MR> It is utter devastation in the power grid. Miles and miles of downed MR> lines. AC> Once a tower [or wood pole] falls, the adjacent one is overloaded: AC> loss of tension on one side, excess tension on the other side. A kind AC> of domino effect. So the neighbour falls, then the next and so on. Most AC> towers are designed for suspension duty, the strain towers [those fat AC> ones, broad at base] tend to be placed at route "corners" ie where the AC> route turns. The strain tower is proportioned to resist the overturning AC> force that results from broken conductors. AC> All towers COULD be built as strain structures but the visual impact AC> would raise objection. It wasn't just the pylons that were destroyed. Utility poles were broken about 3 ft off the ground the whole length of a road. The breaks were as clean as if it were mere toothpicks. Numerous trees were fallen onto the power lines. About 90% of the bigger trees have lost their crowns. This means they are very likely to die. It all looks just like a war zone only without the shooting. Now many people are starting to discover that the ice accumulation on their roofs is creating structural problems. A department store chain closed all their stores after a roof in one had collapsed overnight. A number of schools were evacuated after cracks started to appear in their cement roofs. Work places also were evacuated after suspended ceilings suddenly started buckling badly. Then people tend to be adventurous when hearing this sort of news. A doctor was killed falling off the roof of his home while clearing the ice and snow. Needless to say it is still a very dangerous situation. The power is mostly back now, except for some 50,000 homes, but the system is still very delicate and being held together by shoestrings. ... Ice Storm of the Century refugee. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133)