--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE300006 Date: 10/02/97 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 09:19pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 1 times) Subj: RE: ENGINE DESIGN Jim Dunmyer said the following to Mike Ross on the subject of RE: ENGINE DESIGN (01 Oct 97 08:30:59) > One advantage of the electric motor, in addition to its very high > efficiency (95% & better), is that it develops maximum torque at 0 rpm > while an IC engine develops maximum torque around 60% of redline. The > problem is clearly not with electric motor technology. The simple fact > is the problem is totally in supplying the power to make it run. JD> Mike, JD> This has been the problem for about 100 years now. Many folks don't JD> realize it, but electric cars actually outsold gasoline-powered autos JD> in the early days. If not 'outsold', they certainly held their own; JD> they were quiet, easy to start, and women could easily drive them JD> because of the latter. They were also probably more reliable than the JD> gas cars of the period. JD> Of course, IC engine technolgy kept evolving, and it does offer a HUGE JD> advantage over electric. That is the energy density in a small, light, JD> tank of gasoline; it's the equivilant of a monsterous battery. Plus it JD> can be easily transported and dispensed into the automobile. JD> Your comment about torque vs. speed applies to a steam engine, too. JD> And again, the Stanley Steamer was a popular car in its day, and was JD> even pretty practical. However, as IC engine technology improved, the JD> steamer became less attractive, as it was already at a high state of JD> development by that era. Indeed! I just saw a rerun of that homepower show on pbs and it refreshed my memory. For example they presented some California college EV racing competition where the cars were doing 140 mph. That's not too shabby considering they were carrying a full load of conventional batteries. Imagine a 10 times increase in battery capacity which is certainly around the corner and those same or similar cars will likely be rivaling F1 and Indy speeds of 240 mph no sweat. One last thing I was reminded of was the hybrid powertrain that was being developed by a company started by the founder of Compaq. I had mentioned the fellow's name was Roston but it was really ROSEN. No idea where that wrong name came from. Maybe I was thinking of Boston and my brain stored the info all cockeyed. Oh, well! Mike --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE300007 Date: 10/02/97 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 09:32pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Engine Design Alec Cameron said the following to MIKE ROSS on the subject of Engine Design (29 Sep 97 17:06:30) AC> On (26 Sep 97) MIKE ROSS wrote to Alec Cameron... MR> Alec Cameron said the following to Roy J. Tellason on the subject of MR> Engine Design (24 Sep 97 18:50:10) MR> Don't forget hybrid technology. This increases the usage efficieny out MR> of every drop of gas by an IC engine a whole lot. Because it runs the IC MR> engine at constant speed at its most efficient RPM, driving an MR> electrical generator to charge a battery and/or flywheel, it can cut gas MR> consumption dramatically. AC> I like the hybrid idea, as it means that in city crawl, the engine can AC> be cut and the battery do its thing quite adequately without stinkin' AC> the air. And on the open road run the IC engine. Downhill, or while AC> braking the polarities reverse so that the IC engine plus vehicle AC> momentum drive good energy into the battery. AC> I heard 1000 miles per tankful using a turbine MR> IC engine for a typical size U.S.A. car on a home power tv show cently. AC> This "hybrid" was known and theorised more than 40 years ago. Where AC> the hell are the working prototypes? AC> MR> Gas/electric stations could store energy by trickle charging large MR> underground flywheels. Then quickly charge a customer's car without MR> any heavy drain to the grid. Thus no need to upgrade the electric grid. AC> Wrong. There is a need, notably at the generating stations 'cos if you AC> consume increased energy at the load centres, then you gotta burn more AC> coal/ gas/ oil whatever in the generating stations. Grid capacity would AC> have to meet this increase but the "trickle" you speak of would AC> certainly hold down the required increase in line and substations' AC> capacities. AC> Hey! those flywheels. Any chance of Earth being knocked of its orbit AC> in the event of a major fault throwing an entire nation off line!? For AC> every action there is an equal and opposite Reaction [Isaac Newton- AC> another crazy Brit] AC> Incidentally, to "quickly" charge a customer's car needs at least 5 AC> hours. I guess you mean "partly charge" ie thump in some charge during AC> a lunch break. AC> Cheers....ALEC Okay, another tidbit I remember from that pbs homepower show is that the flywheel used in the Rosen Motors hybrid turbine powertrain will spin on for 6 weeks after the engine is shut off. As for the grid upgrade, yes, I agree there would be an increased total energy consumption. However what if instead of each car burning the fuel inefficiently, the garage station does it for you in generating its own power and spining its own giant flywheels underground. When you're low on power you drive up to the station and get your own flywheel spun back up to speed with some charge top off and away you go. The concept of local energy generation isn't new either but it may sometimes be more efficient than long distance generation and transport. Mike --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE400000 Date: 10/02/97 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 05:54pm \/To: MIKE ROSS (Read 1 times) Subj: Engine Design Hi Mike On (30 Sep 97) MIKE ROSS wrote to Elvis Hargrove... MR> Elvis Hargrove said the following to Mike Ross on the subject of MR> Re: Engine Design (29 Sep 97 11:07:11) -> where they let the gerbils out. Sleep well, man. Wake up and smell -> the coffee when an EV wins the Indy 500. Not tomorrow of course since -> the IC engine has had an 85 year uncontested reign but give the EV -> research a chance. Uncontested 85 years you say- makes 1912. I don't have the statistics but NCE UPON A TIME [pre 1912 I suppose], the World Speed Record was held by battery electric auto. MR> One advantage of the electric motor, in addition to its very high MR> efficiency (95% & better), is that it develops maximum torque at 0 rpm MR> while an IC engine develops maximum torque around 60% of redline. The MR> problem is clearly not with electric motor technology. Excessive torque at 0 rpm isn't necessarily good news. Wheel spin is spectacular and noisy and a crowd pleaser, but it is no help to vehicle acceleration! Cheers.....ALEC ... ....Horsepower was a wonderful thing when only horses had it --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE400001 Date: 10/03/97 From: CRAIG HEALY Time: 08:59pm \/To: ELVIS HARGROVE (Read 1 times) Subj: echo rules for October Congrats on the additional hat, Elvis! Hope you never need to "officially" sign a message here... -c- --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.30 * Origin: Chowdanet! 20gb Amateur Radio BBS (401-331-5587) (1:323/120) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE400002 Date: 10/03/97 From: JIM DUNMYER Time: 07:14am \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: BATTERY DESIGN > I hope that wasn't just a sales pitch- like, many kinds of common > batteries could make an EV go like crazy, but the big question has > to be- for > how many hours? We are faced by the fact that more than 28 years since you > guys walked on the moon, the most effective battery for electric > road vehicles > is *STILL* the old lead acid of circa 1910 [later improved] design. Alec, There *are* some newer battery technologies that are 'promising', but some are very costly, making their use in an EV unfeasable. It's often a case of their using exotic materials, not just low production rates, that make them so expensive Once again, they must compete against a technology that takes a couple of hundred pounds of common, inexpensive materials, with a very few man-hours of labor, to make a device capable of 100+ HP. It is fed by an energy source that's found in great abundance, is easy to transport, and has very high density. If we were all driving EV's right now, and someone invented the modern IC engine and put it in a car, I think we'd see it take over the market overnight. :-) --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Telnet toltbbs.com or call 313-854-6001, Boardwatch #55 (1:234/2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE400003 Date: 10/03/97 From: JIM DUNMYER Time: 07:19am \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: ENGINE DESIGN > I like the hybrid idea, as it means that in city crawl, the engine > can be cut > and the battery do its thing quite adequately without stinkin' the > air. And on > the open road run the IC engine. Downhill, or while braking the > > I heard 1000 miles per tankful using a turbine >MR> IC engine for a typical size U.S.A. car on a home power tv show recently. > > This "hybrid" was known and theorised more than 40 years ago. Where > the hell are the working prototypes? Alec, There have been many working prototypes of hybrid autos, and they work very well indeed. The biggest problem is cost; you need TWO drivelines, and their smaller size doesn't mean proportionally smaller cost. IE: that little 2-cylinder engine doesn't cost half as much as today's 4-cylinder jobs, it's more like 2/3 or 3/4. The battery is much smaller than in a pure EV, but the motor is exactly the same. Add the complication of the controls, and you have a heavy, expensive vehicle. Yeah, it gets good mileage, and yeah, it pollutes a bit less, but folks aren't willing to pay the price until it's mandated. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Telnet toltbbs.com or call 313-854-6001, Boardwatch #55 (1:234/2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE400004 Date: 10/03/97 From: JIM DUNMYER Time: 07:25am \/To: DAY BROWN (Read 1 times) Subj: GEOTHERMAL HEATING AND A > My home burned last year, but lemmee suggest some points. South > facing slope, dug into the hillside, bermed with the excavation > on the north side. I had a 20X36 with a 12X14 greenhouse on the > south side with the floor contiguous with the cellar, and open > wall into it. north arkansas, 36o N. winter lows 5-10 below. Day, Was this your home that you describe? It sounds like a dream house, and very low in energy usage. Nice job of it, and I'm sorry to hear of the fire. <> --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Telnet toltbbs.com or call 313-854-6001, Boardwatch #55 (1:234/2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE500000 Date: 10/04/97 From: LORIN POTTER Time: 02:42pm \/To: ELVIS HARGROVE (Read 1 times) Subj: ECHO RULES FOR OCTOBER EH>Jim Dunmyer has accepted the position of Co-Moderator and with certain >notable exceptions, (Jim loves Diesels and I love Natural Gas engines) >whatever Jim says is what I think too! We hope to help this be one >of the most enjoyable echos ON FidoNet. (It's long been a favorite with >both of us.) EH>So, ENJOY! Have fun and don't fight! Welcome to you and Jim and Co-Moderators of this echo, hopefully things will go well. Can be bring up "Newman" Generators? (GD&R) Thanks, Lorin Potter -- SPEED 1.40 #1891: ... Fight Organized Crime - throw the incumbents out! --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Files R Us BBS - Cedar Rapids, Ia. (319-378-8257) (1:283/125) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE500001 Date: 10/04/97 From: ELVIS HARGROVE Time: 08:32am \/To: CRAIG HEALY (Read 1 times) Subj: echo rules for October -> Congrats on the additional hat, Elvis! Hope you never need to -> "officially" sign a message here... Thank you Craig. I hope not too! BTW folks, I'm drawing a blank at finding Don's rules here on my system. Anybody got a copy of them? I was sure I had them archived, but I've changed BBS hard drives a couple of times in the last two years and may have neglected to copy them. ^..^ --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j' * Origin: BOO! Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas (1:397/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EE500002 Date: 10/04/97 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 01:26pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Engine Design Alec Cameron said the following to MIKE ROSS on the subject of Engine Design (02 Oct 97 17:54:42) N AC> Hi Mike AC> On (30 Sep 97) MIKE ROSS wrote to Elvis Hargrove... MR> Elvis Hargrove said the following to Mike Ross on the subject of MR> Re: Engine Design (29 Sep 97 11:07:11) -> where they let the gerbils out. Sleep well, man. Wake up and smell -> the coffee when an EV wins the Indy 500. Not tomorrow of course since -> the IC engine has had an 85 year uncontested reign but give the EV -> research a chance. AC> Uncontested 85 years you say- makes 1912. I don't have the statistics AC> but ONCE UPON A TIME [pre 1912 I suppose], the World Speed Record was AC> held by battery electric auto. Wow! You must be old to remember that! :-) MR> One advantage of the electric motor, in addition to its very high MR> efficiency (95% & better), is that it develops maximum torque at 0 rpm AC> Excessive torque at 0 rpm isn't necessarily good news. Wheel spin is AC> spectacular and noisy and a crowd pleaser, but it is no help to AC> vehicle acceleration! That's for sure. There really is no need to spin wheels but you can! For example, France, because of its long experience with its early electric Paris subway system, is a leader in motor control circuitry. They have developed some of the very best motor controls of anybody. The subway system here in Montreal (somewhat similar to Paris) uses motor control technology which accelerates the train so smoothly you won't spill a drop of a rim filled coffee from 0 to 60mph. The stops are just as amazing. It runs on inflated rubber wheels so it's very smooth. They only keep a driver in the lead car so a human can intervene in an emergency. Because it is computer controlled, he really just sits there most of the time but to relieve boredom he does get to open and close the doors by looking out the cabin window. Mike --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133)