--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDW00001 Date: 09/26/97 From: ROY J. TELLASON Time: 03:30pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: Engine Design Alec Cameron wrote in a message to Day Brown: AC> Hi Day AC> On (21 Sep 97) Day Brown wrote to Jim Dunmyer... DB> I heard the death knell of the IC vehicle power plant; they've DB> applied computer chip plasma vapor deposition to batteries, and DB> now have a lead cell with *twenty* times the power density. the DB> range goes from 75 to 1500 miles/charge. AC> Do us all a very great favour, and keep this matter before AC> us. Like, what are the problems with the super cell? Price? AC> Life expectancy? At 1500 miles/ charge, boy! it will need a AC> great battery charger. AC> Rough figures: Assume average 50 mph [30 hours] and 20kW AC> drive power [compact]= 600kWH. Just curious, where do you get that 20kW figure from? AC> 110 volt charger, 5 hours recharge. Charger kW then 600/5 ie AC> 120kW SO amps roughly 120000 / 110 say 1200 amps from the 110v AC> supply. At anything like that power level the recharge time will have to be longer, say 10 hours or even more, and the likely power supply will be 240v, not 110. You don't see that kind of load at 110 at all, usually. The biggest single load in a typical home is electric heat (if it's used), electric stove, or electric clothes dryer, all of which use the higher voltage. So double the voltage, halve the amperage. Double the charging time and halve it again. We're still looking at 300 amps, a decidedly nontrivial load! AC> Your neighbourhood gas station, will move in with the grid AC> switchyard! AC> We all want to be kept informed on this great battery, AC> please! Cheers...ALEC Yes. email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com --- * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDW00002 Date: 09/26/97 From: ROY J. TELLASON Time: 03:34pm \/To: DAY BROWN (Read 1 times) Subj: Engine Design Day Brown wrote in a message to Roy J. Telleson: ^ (That's supposed to be an "a") RJ> What I have to wonder about this stuff, though, is the RJ> economics of it. It's all well and good to show that it's RJ> *possible* to build a motor with a lot of power that's very RJ> efficient and light in weight, but how much does it cost? RJ> When they can start showing that costs are going to be RJ> comparable to what's out there now, *then* we'll see things RJ> start to change. RJ> Another consideration, and one that I don't often see addressed with RJ> regard to electric vehicles, is the power grid. I can't RJ> remember where it was exactly, but somewhere in my collection RJ> of Analog magazines there's an article that looked at that RJ> issue and came to the conclusion that in order to move to RJ> electric vehicles in this country we'd need to *double* the RJ> power grid, in order to support current levels of usage. DB> From the homepower standpoint Roy, I'd be interested in vehicle DB> that I could power with wind/solar/water or wood that I can DB> have available from my own place. This is a good point. About the best I can think of with regard to this at this point in time would be one that worked off steam, with provision for alternate fuels being built into it. Seems to me I've heard mention of such a power plant somewhere, though I can't recall just where it was at the moment. DB> Certainly, the grid has to be considered. Some analyses DB> suggest that the pollution problems can be handled at a central DB> powerplant far more effectively than in each individual DB> vehicle. I dunno. That does seem to be the consensus of opinion to a large extent, though perhaps it's changing. If you consider the sort of nightmare of vacuum hoses and gizmos and gadgets and "stuff" that gets hung on to an older engine to try and improve emissions, perhaps that's the case. If, on the other hand, you hang a few sensors on an engine and then have a computer monitoring a bunch of what's going on it could get a lot simpler and a lot more reliable. I'm looking into this a bit. DB> Among other developments is a new technology *in production DB> now* of a photovoltaic panel made of amorphous silicon doped DB> with the techniques of computer chip plasma deposition, which DB> if the pilot plant proves out, will *dramatically* cut the cost DB> of panels. That sounds real good to me! I'd love to see the prices of that stuff come down significantly. DB> The standard PV panels convert 2-3% of sunlight, the new panels DB> can do 12%. My experience suggest that a 4X8 foot panel would DB> do 600 watts, a typical 20X40 foot house roof would get you DB> around 15kw. hmmm. maybe 90 kwh/day if the sun shines. That sure sounds like a worthwhile investment. DB> 90kwh=70hp hours- it would get most folks to work and back. I DB> spoze I'd need panels on the garage to power the house. Hmm. Do let us know if you hear more on this, I imagine that if production could ramp up a bit these would eventually become commodity items, which means that we'd start seeing the same sort of price drops that we see with computer stuff. email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com --- * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDW00003 Date: 09/26/97 From: ROY J. TELLASON Time: 09:45pm \/To: MIKE ROSS (Read 1 times) Subj: Engine Design MIKE ROSS wrote in a message to Alec Cameron: MR> Alec Cameron said the following to Roy J. Tellason on the MR> subject of Engine Design (24 Sep 97 18:50:10) AC> On (22 Sep 97) Roy J. Tellason wrote to Day Brown... RJ> Another consideration, and one that I don't often see addressed with RJ> regard to electric vehicles, is the power grid. AC> Thru the 1940s to 1970s AUS and USA no doubt, doubled the grid sizes AC> and generating station capacities, at intervals of 7 to 10 years. MR> Don't forget hybrid technology. This increases the usage MR> efficieny out of every drop of gas by an IC engine a whole lot. MR> Because it runs the IC engine at constant speed at its most MR> efficient RPM, driving an electrical generator to charge a MR> battery and/or flywheel, it can cut gas consumption MR> dramatically. I heard 1000 miles per tankful using a turbine IC MR> engine for a typical size U.S.A. car on a home power tv show MR> recently. Never mind a typical car, I like mine bigger! Hybrid systems like that have always been of some interest to me, but you only ever seem to hear of them being done by folks who spend a *lot* of time and effort to put some sort of a prototype vehicle together and that seems to be about the extent of it. I would like to know what it would take to retrofit an existing vehicle to support a hybrid system. Assuming that you want to use the existing engine for starters, it'd seem to me that the transmission and the rest of the drive train would have to be removed, and that the suspension would have to be modified at least to some extent -- with that rear axle gone it'd need *something* in there different. Then there's the matter of motors to drive the rear wheels, and support for them. Finally there's the control system, the gas pedal would no longer be connected directly to the engine... And what sort of energy storage? I've seen systems talked about that would use batteries, and occasionally heard other methods mentioned. One that stands out in my memory uses a hydraulic pump at the back end of the engine, and a fairly heavy-duty pressurized tank in the trunk, with hydraulic motors at the rear wheels. That sorta looked interesting, except for the high pressures involved all over the place and the absurd amount of room in the trunk that got taken up by that storage tank. Batteries? How many, and where the heck would you put them? Has anyone offered a retrofit kit of any kind for this purpose? MR> Gas/electric stations could store energy by trickle charging MR> large underground flywheels. I've heard mention before of using flywheels to store energy, and there are a couple of things that are going to need to happen before it gets to where this is a realistic option. One is that they need _magnetic_ bearings, ones that effectively suspend the flywheel with minimum friction loss. The other is that you've gotta package the thing in a vacuum. I haven't heard of either of these ever actually being done, though. Do you know of any actual work, as opposed to theoretical speculations, having been done on this stuff? MR> Then quickly charge a customer's car without any heavy drain to MR> the grid. Thus no need to upgrade the electric grid. I disagree with this point. While you can shift the loads around, the overall effect is *still* going to be a much higher demand for energy than what's currently being used. That was the whole point of the article I read. email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com --- * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDW00004 Date: 09/26/97 From: DAY BROWN Time: 09:26pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 1 times) Subj: Engine Design On 09-23-97 Jim Dunmyer wrote to Day Brown... JD> > But, in 20 years, you won't find any 1990 antiques on the road; JD> JD> Maybe, maybe not. If there's a demand, parts will be JD> available. If not, well.... Maybe.. hmm. well the future is always foggy; I try to see what I can, and lord knows have been wrong enough. Most of my forecast about the 1990s is that the electronic components are borrowed designs from the electronic industry, which has always had design lives on the order of seven years, the changes being so fast in the field that after that, the parts are obsolete. It relates to the new battery technology now that the research is reaching the atomic level. I dunno if they will get production advances as fast as they have in chip technology, or if it is as applicable; but if so, the power we need density will be there. Kinda like the 'cancer' cure, or 'fusion' energy, we all been waiting a looooooooong time now. Is all vaporware? dunno. ___ * OFFLINE 1.58 * These opinions do not represent any rational management. --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: * After F/X * Rochester N.Y. 716-359-1662 (1:2613/415) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDX00000 Date: 09/27/97 From: MIKE ROSS Time: 03:40pm \/To: ROY J. TELLASON (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Engine Design Roy J. Tellason said the following to MIKE ROSS on the subject of Engine Design (26 Sep 97 21:45:17) RJT> MIKE ROSS wrote in a message to Alec Cameron: MR> Don't forget hybrid technology. This increases the usage MR> efficieny out of every drop of gas by an IC engine a whole lot. MR> Because it runs the IC engine at constant speed at its most MR> efficient RPM, driving an electrical generator to charge a MR> battery and/or flywheel, it can cut gas consumption MR> dramatically. I heard 1000 miles per tankful using a turbine IC MR> engine for a typical size U.S.A. car on a home power tv show MR> recently. RJT> Never mind a typical car, I like mine bigger! RJT> Hybrid systems like that have always been of some interest to me, but RJT> you only ever seem to hear of them being done by folks who spend a RJT> *lot* of time and effort to put some sort of a prototype vehicle RJT> together and that seems to be about the extent of it. RJT> I would like to know what it would take to retrofit an existing RJT> vehicle to support a hybrid system. Assuming that you want to use the RJT> existing engine for starters, it'd seem to me that the transmission RJT> and the rest of the drive train would have to be removed, and that RJT> the suspension would have to be modified at least to some extent -- RJT> with that rear axle gone it'd need *something* in there different. RJT> Then there's the matter of motors to drive the rear wheels, and RJT> support for them. [...] RJT> Has anyone offered a retrofit kit of any kind for this purpose? On the home power show I saw they interviewed this fellow called Roston, who was the founder of Compaq. He has started a company called Roston Motors which has developed a power-train using a turbine/generator driven hybrid system. It is supposed to retrofit easily into any existing chassis. The drive proper is an electric motor at each wheel. The whole kit is very modular. Overall this is an old technique which is the basic principle of diesel-electric locomotives but which is being applied by this powertrain to an ordinary car. Oh, almost forgot, the rear differential cavity is taken up by a carbon fibre flywheel. MR> Gas/electric stations could store energy by trickle charging MR> large underground flywheels. RJT> I've heard mention before of using flywheels to store energy, and RJT> there are a couple of things that are going to need to happen before RJT> it gets to where this is a realistic option. One is that they need RJT> _magnetic_ bearings, ones that effectively suspend the flywheel with RJT> minimum friction loss. The other is that you've gotta package the RJT> thing in a vacuum. I haven't heard of either of these ever actually RJT> being done, though. Do you know of any actual work, as opposed to RJT> theoretical speculations, having been done on this stuff? I think this has already been figured out. Space satellites come to mind. These use electrically driven flywheels to orient themselves. I guess one simply only has to scale the same devices into industrial sized capacities. This sort of upscaling has been done before on proof of concept inventions. MR> Then quickly charge a customer's car without any heavy drain to MR> the grid. Thus no need to upgrade the electric grid. RJT> I disagree with this point. While you can shift the loads around, RJT> the overall effect is *still* going to be a much higher demand for RJT> energy than what's currently being used. That was the whole point of RJT> the article I read. It's not simply a question of shifting loads around but rather of using the unused "renewable" capacity during off peak periods. Of course not with fuel driven generation but with aeolian, solar, hydro, tidal, etc. I agree the total consumption would go up but peak numbers need not. --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 * Origin: Juxtaposition BBS. Lasalle, Quebec, Canada (1:167/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDX00001 Date: 09/27/97 From: KEVIN CROSBY Time: 01:35am \/To: ROY J. TELLASON (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: ENGINE DESIGN *** Quoting Roy J. Tellason from a message to Jim Dunmyer *** RJT> Jim Dunmyer wrote in a message to Roy J. Tellason: > Another consideration, and one that I don't often see addressed > with regard to electric vehicles, is the power grid. I can't > remember where it was exactly, but somewhere in my collection of > Analog magazines there's an article that looked at that issue and > came to the conclusion that in order to move to electric vehicles in > this country we'd need to *double* the power grid, in order to > support current levels of usage. And to add icing to this cake, the "Save the (insert pet whatever)" folks want to shut down the local Nuke plant, as well as (I kid you not!) demolish the Hydro dams on the Snake and Columbia rivers because they interfere with the salmon migration! Most of these folks aren't even from around this region. I personally think they are just jealous of our electrical rates. My rates are actually a little high for the area, at 5.7 cents per KW/hr. Community I moved from was 3.87 cents per KW/hr. The cheap electricity, combined with relatively mild winters, make it difficult to economically use "alternate sources". Solar pre-heat for some of the local schools' hot-water and heating systems exist, but it is my understanding that maintenance costs due to the age of the system start building before the systems begin to pay for themselves. Kevin --- Telegard v3.02/mL * Origin: The Unknown System 509-967-6785 (1:3407/5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDX00002 Date: 09/27/97 From: ELVIS HARGROVE Time: 09:50pm \/To: MIKE ROSS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Engine Design -> On the home power show I saw they interviewed this fellow called -> Roston, who was the founder of Compaq. He has started a company -> called Roston Motors which has developed a power-train using a -> turbine/generator driven hybrid system. It is supposed to retrofit -> easily into any I saw that Mike. As I remember it the thing couldn't pull itself.... ^..^ --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j' * Origin: BOO! Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas (1:397/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDX00003 Date: 09/26/97 From: DAY BROWN Time: 11:06pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: battery design On 09-24-97 Alec Cameron wrote to Day Brown... AC> We all want to be kept informed on this great battery, please! They are already being installed in laptop computers. Currently they are manufactured in the 'sub-c' size common in this kind of stuff. They used 600 of them in a demo to run an EV, which ran like a bat outta hell. They don't have the environmental recycling problems of the lithium and cadmium cells, so you will definately see them available. for sure i will keep you posted. ;-) ___ * OFFLINE 1.58 * Howcum-even when you do it right the first time, it still... --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: * After F/X * Rochester N.Y. 716-359-1662 (1:2613/415) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDX00004 Date: 09/28/97 From: SOUTHERN STAR Time: 03:48am \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Expired Listing Hello. The Zone 1 Backbone only carries echoes listed in the Zone 1/2 EchoList. It seems that the listing for this echo has expired. Thus, it will be necessary for someone to assume the moderatorship and list it if it is to remain on the Zone 1 Backbone. There is a three month grace period to accomplish this. For more information please consult these files: BOFAQxxx.TXT and ELISTxxx.ZIP, where "xxx" is the version number. They are available from most hubs or can be requested from 1:1/200, 1:1/201 or 1:396/1. Regards, Zone 1 Backbone Operations --- Harvey's Robot v6.00 * Origin: Southern Star - sstar.com - V.32b/V.34+ - 504-885-5928 - (1:396/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: EDY00000 Date: 09/27/97 From: ROY J. TELLASON Time: 11:37pm \/To: KEVIN CROSBY (Read 1 times) Subj: ENGINE DESIGN Kevin Crosby wrote in a message to Roy J. Tellason: KC> *** Quoting Roy J. Tellason from a message to Jim Dunmyer KC> *** RJT> Jim Dunmyer wrote in a message to Roy J. Tellason: > Another consideration, and one that I don't often see addressed > with regard to electric vehicles, is the power grid. I can't > remember where it was exactly, but somewhere in my collection of > Analog magazines there's an article that looked at that issue and > came to the conclusion that in order to move to electric vehicles in > this country we'd need to *double* the power grid, in order to > support current levels of usage. KC> And to add icing to this cake, the "Save the (insert pet KC> whatever)" folks want to shut down the local Nuke plant, as KC> well as (I kid you not!) demolish the Hydro dams on the Snake KC> and Columbia rivers because they interfere with the salmon KC> migration! *sigh* Those people, if they were as well-informed as they like to pretend, damn well oughta know that there are other ways of dealing with this. For one example I've seen stuff about how they've gone and built facilities that allow salmon to bypass existing dams. But! If _they_ think that such stuff is so important then it also should be equally important for those folks who think so to pay for it, and not burden the taxpayer with this stuff. KC> Most of these folks aren't even from around this region. I KC> personally think they are just jealous of our electrical rates. KC> My rates are actually a little high for the area, at 5.7 cents KC> per KW/hr. Community I moved from was 3.87 cents per KW/hr. KC> The cheap electricity, combined with relatively mild winters, KC> make it difficult to economically use "alternate sources". KC> Solar pre-heat for some of the local schools' hot-water and KC> heating systems exist, but it is my understanding that KC> maintenance costs due to the age of the system start building KC> before the systems begin to pay for themselves. Cheap electricity and relatively mild winters? Where is this again? :-) email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com --- * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615)