--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECG00005 Date: 08/11/97 From: KEVIN CROSBY Time: 11:18pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Small generators CH> I have often considered using a V-8 automotive engine with much CH> altered cam and ignition timing running at 540 RPM (PTO speed) to run CH> a generator. By careful selection of components, it would probably CH> be made to be quite efficient at that speed. Maybe even run it off CH> piped-in natural gas for co-generation. AC> Real David and Goliath! I suppose you are not proposing that an auto AC> generator be the partner!! But could you easily find a suitable AC> generator?? Perhaps a -bank- of alternators feeding a large bank of batteries? Just add an inverter. U.S. Navy used to use batteries as back-up for the nav equipment...120 VDC to a motor, which was direct-coupled to a 120 volt/400 Hz generator. This was, of course, superseded by a solid-state inverter. Kevin + IceEdit v1.40 - Unregistered Evaluation Copy --- Telegard v3.02/mL * Origin: The Unknown System 509-967-6785 (1:3407/25.2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECH00000 Date: 08/12/97 From: CRAIG HEALY Time: 09:46pm \/To: KEVIN CROSBY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: SMALL GENERATORS -> -> > I have often considered using a V-8 automotive engine with much -> -> > altered cam and ignition timing running at 540 RPM (PTO speed) t -> -> > a generator. By careful selection of components, it would proba -> -> > be made to be quite efficient at that speed. Maybe even run it o -> -> > piped-in natural gas for co-generation. -> -> -> Craig, I doubt that this lashup would be "quite efficient" compare -> -> to an engine more closely sized to the load. There's lots of -> -> friction loss in such engines, and it would be quite significant -> -> at low RPM and load. -> -> Prhaps one could look at a small tractor or marine diesel engine? Th -> engines are designed to run for extended periods at low speeds. Im looking at the Chevy 350 for a couple of reasons. First, they are *very* common, and parts are generally very inexpensive. Second, I'd rather lower the RPM and make up the power with torque. The lower the RPM, the less noise and vibration. -> If you can't get small enough, you might see if any of your -> neighbors might want to contribute in exchange for a feed from a -> larger generator. Probably wouldn't have much excess capacity. Certainly not enough to sell. I don't want to be a major power exporter, but just about break even on input vs. output. Around here they buy power at about half the selling rate. I believe they even require a special "ratcheting" meter so they can separate input from output and bill accordingly. Then again, this whole project may turn out to be economically wrong. But, it will be an interesting exercise! -c- --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.30 * Origin: Chowdanet! 20gb Amateur Radio BBS (401-331-5587) (1:323/120) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECH00001 Date: 08/12/97 From: CRAIG HEALY Time: 09:58pm \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 1 times) Subj: SMALL GENERATORS -> > It's more a matter of vibration. I had a diesel Rabbit engine a fe -> > years ago from a totalled car and was considering it for stationary -> > use. Didn't seem the right one for it. I want to get some fairly -> > large engine running very slowly. Build the thing specifically for -> > the application. -> -> The Diesel Rabbit engine would be very efficient, but it won't make -> a lot of difference if you want to use the waste heat in addition to -> the electricity, and heat your house with it. And natural gas is the -> thing to use for fuel if you have it available. -> Good luck with your project. I have located a 350 Chevy engine from a C60 truck. It has the heavy-duty parts, and a *very* heavy flywheel. I think it has a 13" dual-disk Lipe clutch, or similar. Before I buy any parts, I intend to write to a number of folks who are known to do offbeat engine projects. It's entirely possible that someone, somewhere has done this before. No sense re-inventing the wheel... Yes, I would intend on heating the house with the reject heat. I wonder if a catalytic converter would work on natural gas? The heat that throws off would be a bonus for very little loss. I am looking at a V8 for a couple of other reasons. An engine with a larger number of cylinders is usually smoother. And, the V8 design is inherently balanced. A four usually isn't. There aren't too many engines with balance shafts for stationary work. -c- --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.30 * Origin: Chowdanet! 20gb Amateur Radio BBS (401-331-5587) (1:323/120) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECI00000 Date: 08/13/97 From: DAY BROWN Time: 04:35am \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 1 times) Subj: Small Generators They do make generators for mission critical stuff like ambulances. Lots of rural junkyards don't recycle stuff so fast, so still have generators. the standard delco will do 20 amps -continuous service-. discard the volt regulator, put in a 2-3 ohm 10 watt resistor on the fld winding, and you can get efficiency way beyond what an alternator will get you. It will also 'motor' a 2-3 hp engine enuf to electric start it. double the speed, and you double the voltage. The alternators all use ball bearings; the delcos use lubrilite brass on the pulley end with a grease cup for oil. keep a drop in it, and even when the belt gets worn and slaps, it won't tear up the bearing like it will with alternators. --- SLMR 2.1a Nothing is too much. Nothing too much. * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00000 Date: 08/13/97 From: CLIFF JOBE Time: 09:14am \/To: CRAIG HEALY (Read 1 times) Subj: Small generators On 08-11-97 Craig Healy wrote to Alec Cameron... CH> MSGID: 1:323/120.0 226f6766 CH> PID: ViaMAIL! v1.30 97-0512 CH> Re: Low RPM, high torgue engine for cogeneration. CH> That's why it's all on paper (or bytes!), and not a wrench has been CH> turned. To see if the project is practical. So far, there has been CH> some opinions offered by folks with some good experience in the CH> field. But I don't believe anyone has actually tried this. CH> CH> I have been working with high-performance engines for 30+ years. CH> There is a tremendous body of work in improving efficiency in the CH> field. Roller rockers, recently adopted for production by GM. CH> Roller tappets, also now used for production. Lapped-end rings CH> for reduced leak-down. Under 1%, rather than 3% normally found. CH> Synthetic oils. The list goes on. My thought was to gather all CH> these things in one place to see if the efficiency could be made CH> to work. Natural gas is clean, and not hard on the engine. Oil CH> stays clean for a *long* time. And the proposed low RPM would CH> be easier on parts, and the ears in terms of vibration. CH> Where is this information available, the bytes tha you are referring to? And what would be the cost of trying to do a project like this? Although, I don't think any fossil fuel is going to be the answer, however, I have made my living in the quest for it. Natural gas is probably always going to be the cleanest burning of all of the fossil fuels. I am not sure how far they can go with cleaning up the way a diesel breaks its fuel down, there are limits I would imagine. I have always like diesel the best because of the amount of power it can produce, from the fuel it uses if it is used right, durability is another factor. A good propane or natural gas engine can have the same durability if it is optimized for their use and then run at the optimum speeds for torque and power. I have seen big natural gas engines offshore, that are Catepillars that are actually diesel engines that are converted to use the natural gas that is available coming off of the wells that are producing on the platforms that they live on. Cat does the conversion on their own engines and are available as the same engine series but they start the model number with a big G instead of big D. There are several of the engine manufacturers of the big power plants who do this,Waukesau is another. They don't ever seem to wear out, they run for years and years. Most of the time 24 hours a day, while doing those years and years. Only emergencies or unusual conditions will cause a shut in on the gas compressors, and you surely don't want the generator to go down. I enjoyed your post. Cliff --- * OFFLINE 1.56 * Here is your freedom permit obey all regulations or else! * Origin: The Gulf Coast BBS 318.364.7721 (1:3803/0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00001 Date: 08/14/97 From: JIM DUNMYER Time: 05:06pm \/To: CRAIG HEALY (Read 1 times) Subj: SMALL GENERATORS > has done this before. No sense re-inventing the wheel... > > Yes, I would intend on heating the house with the reject heat. > I wonder if a catalytic converter would work on natural gas? > The heat that throws off would be a bonus for very little loss. > > I am looking at a V8 for a couple of other reasons. An engine > with a larger number of cylinders is usually smoother. And, > the V8 design is inherently balanced. A four usually isn't. If you're not wanting to reinvent the wheel, you should probably copy what others are doing along these very lines. They generally use small water-cooled engines, 2, 3 or 4 cylinders. Use the induction motor to start the thing, and use that for the electrical part of the co-generation. You don't need a catalytic convertor; the engine will be pretty efficient because it's running at a higher specific load than your V8 idea. You would probably want a marine-type exhaust manifold to extract the heat from that area. Vibration and noise are not a concern in these applications because it's pretty straightforward to suppress. Put the engine on a concrete foundation, with vibration-absorbing pads under it, and build a soundproof box around it. You should be able to get it as quiet as a typical central A/C condensing unit. --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Telnet toltbbs.com or call 313-854-6001, Boardwatch #55 (1:234/2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00002 Date: 08/14/97 From: JIM DUNMYER Time: 05:28pm \/To: CRAIG HEALY (Read 1 times) Subj: SMALL GENERATORS > That's why it's all on paper (or bytes!), and not a wrench has been > turned. To see if the project is practical. So far, there has been > some opinions offered by folks with some good experience in the > field. But I don't believe anyone has actually tried this. Craig, You can BUY these co-gen setups off-the-shelf. They tend to be a bit pricy, but reportedly work quite well. Look up back issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics; that's mostly where I've seen the articles. I also have a magazine lying around here that describes a York heat pump unit that's powered by a natural-gas-fueled engine. It'll do the A/C for about half of the cost of electricity in many areas, and runs nearly 130% efficient during the heating cycle. <> --- FLAME v1.1 * Origin: Telnet toltbbs.com or call 313-854-6001, Boardwatch #55 (1:234/2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00003 Date: 08/14/97 From: RICK GORDON Time: 09:47pm \/To: DAVIS ROBINSON (Read 1 times) Subj: solar shingles? Davis Robinson wrote in a message to Rick Gordon: -> Someone told me about a company selling solar shingles the other day. -> They are supposed to be solar cells designed to look like regular shi -> Has anyone heard of these? DR> In Japan they have solar cells encased in clear plastic shaped DR> like spanish roofing tiles. I do not know if they are sold in the DR> states yet but they are designed to be intergrated into a spanish DR> style roof. I have not heard of anything yet that is a regular DR> shingle. Do you know the name of the company selling them? Spanish styled shingles would fit into the general design of the structure I am building:) Seize the day! Rick --- FMail 1.0g * Origin: The Fortress 817-763-5583 FTW TX USA (1:130/612) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00004 Date: 08/14/97 From: RICK GORDON Time: 09:50pm \/To: ROBERT MANCI (Read 1 times) Subj: test Robert Manci wrote in a message to All: RM> test Pass:) Seems that is all I do lately, testing connections, fixing broken ones... Seize the day! Rick --- FMail 1.0g * Origin: The Fortress 817-763-5583 FTW TX USA (1:130/612) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: ECK00005 Date: 08/14/97 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 05:04pm \/To: KEVIN CROSBY (Read 1 times) Subj: Small generators Hi Kevin On (11 Aug 97) Kevin Crosby wrote to Alec Cameron... CH> I have often considered using a V-8 automotive engine with much CH> altered cam and ignition timing running at 540 RPM (PTO speed) to run CH> a generator. By careful selection of components, it would probably CH> be made to be quite efficient at that speed. Maybe even run it off CH> piped-in natural gas for co-generation. Second thoughts..... the original engine mfr probably spent around $100, 000 experimenting to get the cam profile and ign timing at best possible. How would a handyman improve on that? Calculations? Cut and try? Instrumentation like dynamometer test and fuel efficiency....Pretty rough as a DIY project I reckon and hardly likely to be a good outcome. AC> Real David and Goliath! I suppose you are not proposing that an auto AC> generator be the partner!! But could you easily find a suitable AC> generator?? KC> Perhaps a -bank- of alternators feeding a large bank of batteries? Sounds dreadful, very lossy and lots of maintenance. Six alternators give about six times as much trouble as one. Just KC> add KC> an inverter. U.S. Navy used to use batteries as back-up for the nav KC> equipment...120 VDC to a motor, which was direct-coupled to a 120 volt/400 KC> Hz KC> generator. Very familiar WW2 technology, gadgets I used to buy as a schoolboy at war disposals sales. My favourite was an airforce IFF set [identification friend or foe]. Was 24v dc input, 1200v dc output and had an outboard multiple set f commutators for encoding the "I'm a Goodie" transmissions so as to inhibit Friendly Fire. Eventually I used this for driving an industrial sewing machine. Cheers....ALEC ... Me drive? I'll take the train as the good Lord intended! ^oo oo^oo oo^ --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW AUS (3:712/517.12)