--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500003 Date: 06/03/96 From: LEWIS COSPER Time: 06:23am \/To: ELVIS HARGROVE (Read 4 times) Subj: HOT WATER HEATER ?? >-> Just what kind of pump can one use that will tolerate the hot >-> temperature and high pressure of most water systems? > That's the strangest part of all, Lewis! > magnetic field. In other words, no shaft, no seal, little wear, > and > substantially no problems. It's rated at 1/16th horsepower and > draws > only about half an amp. It also costs a lot more than I wanna > pay.... Sounds good to me. What's the ball park cost? Lewis --- * Origin: The Mansion (Charleston, Oregon) USA (1:356/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500004 Date: 06/03/96 From: LEWIS COSPER Time: 06:26am \/To: JIM DUNMYER (Read 4 times) Subj: HOT WATER HEATER ?? > Lewis, > The first thing that comes to mind is a hot-water heating > system circulation pump. I should have thought of that. > There are also pumps made for solar > water heating systems. That doesn't surprise me. Speciality stuff. Lewis --- * Origin: The Mansion (Charleston, Oregon) USA (1:356/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500005 Date: 06/03/96 From: LEWIS COSPER Time: 06:28am \/To: THOMAS L. KISH, JR. (Read 4 times) Subj: HOT WATER HEATER ?? Hi Thomas, > and kitchen taps. If you would like more specific information, > leave me a > little info on the system you have in mind, and I'll look up the > appropriate > part numbers for you. It was just a general question of curiosity. Lewis --- * Origin: The Mansion (Charleston, Oregon) USA (1:356/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500006 Date: 06/04/96 From: LEWIS COSPER Time: 12:21am \/To: JAMES DI PAULO (Read 4 times) Subj: Solar Hot Water HI James, > The location will be on the high plains east of the Rockies in > Colorado, > always windy and usually quite cold in the winter, the worst > case is about > ten/twelve days of minus 20 degrees and another couple of weeks > of minus 5 and a month or so of 0 degree weather annually. Wow, gets a bit cold there. Where exactly is the place. Lewis --- * Origin: The Mansion (Charleston, Oregon) USA (1:356/12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500007 Date: 06/04/96 From: ELVIS HARGROVE Time: 02:37pm \/To: JAMES DI PAULO (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: SOLAR HOT WATER -> BTW, in my original post I said the wind always blows, obviously this -> is an overstatement, it does seem so, but the actual percentage of -> the time is unknown at this moment. And how HARD it blows is an important unknown. What seems like a pretty hard wind may not be quite enough to make any significant power. I've experienced a lot of that. Local obstructions are also significant to wind driven power. ^..^ --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j' * Origin: BOO! Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas (1:397/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DA500008 Date: 06/04/96 From: CHRIS HARPER Time: 02:37pm \/To: LORIN POTTER (Read 4 times) Subj: RATES FOR HP WATTS On June 02 1996, Lorin Potter of (1:283/125) wrote to Chris Harper: LP> I took the liberty to missquote you as you did to Jim. I did not misquote Jim! ESPECIALLY as you have done to me, taking snippets from one line and tagging them onto another in order to change the meaning! Especially as below, leaving out the whole purpose of the sentence in the "UNLESS FORCED TO" that I had there! CH>> NO utility has implemented any sort of pollution control. no utility >> ever lowered customer prices when their costs have gone down. CH>> Large corps are here to do one thing and one thing only. Make as much >> money as possible, as fast as possible, at ANY expense, even humanity's. LP> Thanks, Lorin Potter You "sir" (and I use that term as loosly as humanly possible), need to see a professional about your vindictiveness and other mental problems. You have contributed nothing to the conversation either pro or con except an attack on me. Why waste your time typing it? It's off topic and serves no purpose. You also tried to discredit ANYONE who doesn't think exactly as you do, and gone out of your way to recruit support for silencing ANY sort of free thinking in this and several other echos. What's next, burning books mine Komptf? RYL, Chris --- GoldED 2.40 * Origin: The Grizzly BBS, Wadsworth, OH, USA (1:2215/10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DAA00000 Date: 06/02/96 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 06:38pm \/To: JIM MCANDREW (Read 4 times) Subj: RISKY HYDRO 18:38:4206/02/96 Hi Jim On (31 May 96) Jim Mcandrew wrote to All... JM> Follow up on Risky Hydro thread... JM> Generator: 20hp, 1750rpm, 3ph, 575V, TEFC Toshiba Premium JM> efficiency motor used as an induction generator at 480V system JM> voltage JM> JM> Wire run: about 2000' of #8AWG Tray Cable strung on insulators JM> attached to trees. (Up to 60V drop in transmission = 1.5 kw loss JM> at max. power) JM> JM> Capacitors: 7 Kvar at generator end of transmission line to JM> correct power factor and minimize amps and losses in the wire JM> run. JM> JM> Grid Intertie: Power Co. required Over & Under Voltage, and JM> Over & Under Frequency relays. We used inexpensive devices from JM> TimeMark Corp. and got off cheep at about $350 total for the two. Good one! Seems you knew what you were doing and had some good theoretical advice. Do those Relays prescribed by your Power Co, operate with the contacts in a battery supply? Control and protection relays don't always function orrectly, if the control circuits are AC. I am remembering the technical reports, after the [in]famous NE USA blackouts 15? 20? years ago? Control room operators at some sites were examining their switch console settings by flashlight, and airliners were circling blacked ut airports whose radio comms [failed] were driven from 60Hz supply. We had uite a few giggles here, because AUS utilities followed the UK practice of battery dependence for secure circuits. JM> We have a manual reset arrangement to turn off the water in the JM> event of an electrical fault or grid outage. This is advisable JM> so as not to waste water or overspeed the motor and bearings. JM> This shutdown arrangement is a real Rube Goldburg. A solenoid JM> keeps a latch closed until a fault condition. On a fault , a JM> cable is released allowing a weight to drop which pulls on JM> another line closing the ball valves feeding the turbine. To JM> prevent rapid closing of the valves and possible water-hammer JM> trouble, the weight is restrained by another cable connected to a JM> hydraulic door closer used as a dashpot. Hope you have an independent speed governor or overspeed device. An overfrequency relay is *NOT* an adequate detector for overspeed. If you add a governor [eg flyballs] suggest you *DON'T* use a belt drive for it unless you figure carefully, the results of belt failure. Which is often to open wide he water gate [sorry! Politics again....] JM> We spent about $7,000 on pipe, wire, motor and other items, but JM> much of the electrical stuff, starters and meters, was scrounged JM> or salvaged from storage. Cheap! More fun than buying a cute old auto. >> CONTINUED IN NEXT MESSAGE << NO, I've said enuff. Cheers.....ALEC ... ......Many people die of thirst but the Irish are born with one illigan] --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DAA00001 Date: 05/25/96 From: BOB KNOWLES Time: 06:55pm \/To: ALEC CAMERON (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Steam Power -=> Quoting Alec Cameron to Bob Knowles <=- Hi Alec BK> I have always fancied hot water pipe under floor heating with BK> thermosyphon but I have a hot water boiler with a small pump that uses BK> so little power that I leave it on all winter without switching it on BK> demand. AC> I was involved with electric underfloor heating, at some power AC> stations [admin offices, locker rooms, shower rooms]. The thermal AC> inertia/ long thermal time constant was sometimes a horror, a change in AC> ambient temp would be accompanied by very long heat up- cool down AC> periods. Staff grumbled. AC> Even more serious, elec shocks to the bathers! Not easy to achieve AC> perfect grounding inside a PS that deals in huge load currents. AC> My personal [human] thermostat is very dodgy and I want rapid response AC> to my needs so our house has flued natural gas at one end and reverse AC> cycle split sytem at the other. It is my understanding of underfloor heating that you do not use it as a the whole heating system but as "background heating" IE you may aim for 16 c (61 f) with your underfloor heating and then top up the rooms that you are using with other forms of heating. This tends to stop the problems that one has with quick changes in the outside temps as we have here in Oz. Mind you I would be aiming at a higher design myself than 16 c as I hate the cold and wouldn't mind if the indoor temperature went up a bit during the day. I would have thought that the reverse cycle unit down there would have been a bit dodgy because of the low out door ambient you experience, do you have a electric element booster in it? Usually around 7c (45f) the output of reverse cycle on heating is only equivalent to electric heaters of the same power consumption. BK> For anyone who does not understand 2 and 4 pipe systems, 2 pipe is a BK> flow and return that uses hot water in winter and chilled water in BK> summer. The same coils are used for both applications (heating and BK> cooling) The 4 pipe system has 2 flows and 2 returns. A flow and return BK> for the hot water and a flow and return for the chilled water. The 4 BK> pipe system need a heating and a cooling pump. It also needs a heating BK> and a cooling coil in each fan coil unit. AC> And you have independent thermostats in each room to adjust the local AC> flow rate, yes? I have 4 fan coil units, each with it's own thermostat and water valve, the water valves are on/off not modulating. Modulating valves give better control, but if your pumping cost is a worry then they tend to hold the pump in with little heating being achieved. When I designed the system the chilled water pump used to pump the hot water around and it was 4 times the size than was actually needed for heating. I find that the on/off valves and thermostats work well enough and can hold the room temperature to within 1 or 2 degrees. As a power saving measure I make the fans cycle with the thermostat, so they only run when heating is required, it saves quite a lot of power this way. Maybe the final temperature in the room maybe not so tightly controlled but I do not notice it. Three way valves are the go on my system so that the water is hot when heating is called for. Mind you since I leave the small pump running all the time that is not a problem, but when I get all energetic and put a relay on the pump that switches it in on the demand of the fan coil units (and thermostats) the 3 way valves will come into their own. I am working on controlling the whole system with a computer, but it is a rather long time project I am afraid, but I am getting there. I need a new house and start from scratch :-) Three way valves allowing the hot water to bypass the coils whilst they are not actually heating but the pump is running. This helps to stop "dead" (cold) water suddenly being dropped into the boiler and lowering the temperature. As my hot water (heating) system tank has a 150 feet of 3/4 copper tube in it to supply mains pressure domestic hot water I need to keep a fairly stable water temperature in the hot water tank so as to maintain a reasonable domestic hot water supply. I do get a fair amount of thermosyphon in my system if the pump is shut down with the 3 way valves. The boiler and associated hot water tank are only pressurized by a header tank on the roof and the system is vented to the air above that, so the actual boiler is only on about 10 psi pressure (70 kpa). The hot water from the boiler thermosyphons to the hot water tank. The actual water flow rates to each fancoil unit is fixed by a globe valve, but this is set by chilled water needs in summer rather than hot water needs, as the chilled water is more temperamental because of lower water to air temperature than the hot water on heating. BYW I am glad it was you having the 2.5c (36.5f) the other morning, real brass monkey weather.... I complain when it goes down to 10c (50f) here even lowder if it drops to 5 which is rare thank goodness. Catch you later Bob ... It has been 2093746529085 seconds since I had sex, but who is ... countin ? --- Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: The Eagles BBS - Fidonet and Internet System - (3:712/704) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DAA00002 Date: 05/26/96 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 04:48pm \/To: HELEN PEAGRAM (Read 4 times) Subj: YOU KNOW Hi Helen On (18 May 96) Helen Peagram wrote to Alec Cameron... ....about the joys and problems of urban residence..... AC> deviant lifestyle you choose. You have profoundly handicapped HP> Naw, WCB did that! I enjoy a "" thru my crumbling teeth, but what is *WCB*? The lingo here s not identical to thar! Cheers..ALEC HP> ... Stoney Creek, just east of Hamilton, Ontario at 12:52:23, 18 May 96 ... ........BUNDANOON, on a dirt track leading to the Info Superhighway --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW (3:712/517.12) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 272 HOME POWER Ref: DAA00003 Date: 05/26/96 From: ALEC CAMERON Time: 05:02pm \/To: FLOYD WILLIAMS (Read 4 times) Subj: Heat absorption coeff. Hi Floyd On (22 May 96) Floyd Williams wrote to All... FW> Anyone have the coefficient for the rate of heat absorption per FW> square foot of black surface exposed to the sun? Or even better: FW> how big does a passive solar water heater have to be FW> (a practicable size and rate of heating) to supply 100 gallon of hot FW> water per day. Sorry, don't know the Black Body factor- it will be found in basic physics texts no doubt. The number is a bit misleading as there are large discrepancies between the theoretical, and what is practically achieved. In Australia, roof top HW systems are very common. The storage tank is often integrated with the collector, and an elec booster element is provided. The booster is usually manually switched from inside the house. If you have overnight guests, or if the weather has been very cloudy then the booster ill usually be "on". I guess that the collector area for a family home, is around 1.5 to 4 sq yards. The collector is a fixture, the steerable arrangement [to face the sun directly] is extremely rare. There are advantages/ disadvantages to consider- * The water is coldest when you may need it most ie in the morning when laundry, shower baths are in use. The water is hottest when you need it least ie at tea time. Therefore the thermal losses, are substantial in relation to what is collected. Really good insulation of the pipework is essential and this can make retrofitting, a big problem. * In rural districts where energy costs are high, the system can be a winner $$$ saved. Especially if the local generating station is diesel powered, or f there is neither gas nor elec Utility service. * In urban sites where energy is cheapest and aesthetics apply, you may have difficulty picking a good location for the collector. Not nice if it is later overshadowed by neighbours' trees, or new construction next door. Architects hate the rooftop hardware that is needed. Owners often prefer to have the house front facing the sun!! * For a young home owner building on a lot where they will spend many years, great idea. The higher capital costs can be recovered later, as saved energy bills. * For an older person [me] the HW system may outlive me so the lowest capital cost option, is attractive. Our elec rates here are so low [discounted more than 50% for off-peak] that the cash cost of a solar system, if invested in a secure Bank interest bearing deposit will earn more in interest than I have o pay for the hot water elec bill. And my capital remains on deposit, iminished only by inflation....... whereas and expensive HW system will deteriorate and eventually become worthless junk. There are thus monetary, and also emotional forces that drive our choice. act is, that many people willingly opt [emotionally] for the responsible choice f defending the environment, and buying solar as good citizens. Great- it makes them happy, and is less damaging to my lifestyle. ^^^^ ^^ FW> * Origin: Byte Junction, Citronelle, Alabama, 334-866-7895 (1:3625/500) ^^^^^^^^^^ My Mom told me of a US family who baptised their baby Citronella. We laughed! because in AUS at that time, citronella was an oil used for warrring against insects, before DDT etc had been marketted. Cheers....ALEC ... ........BUNDANOON, on a dirt track leading to the Info Superhighway --- PPoint 1.92 * Origin: Bundanoon, Southern Highlands, NSW (3:712/517.12)