--------------------(quoted material follows)----------------------- -> Sounds like you're a republican. -> -> I'm a firm believer in waking up the taxpayer on economics. -> -> Let's take the "Trickle Down" theory. Republicans would have you -> believe that it's just fine to run workers at slave wages and -> when the rich feel like it they can build parks and libraries. -> -> What's wrong with an honest wage -- what the rich would have made off -> with and donated according to whim is NOW taxable income -- those -> taxes can now be used as society collectively sees the need and -- -> more often than not -- putting others down the line to work as well. -> The cycle continues. -> -> ...and honest working families would be able to support not only -> themselves but their communities as well -- with dignity. -> -> ...for the Deming TQM fans out there that's called OWNERSHIP. -> ...recognise anything missing from *our* society? * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1Z00000 Date: 01/28/97 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 12:40pm \/To: FRANK TOPPING (Read 4 times) Subj: Deming FT>Sounds like you're a republican. Frank, I'm getting seriously tired of this bs. If you can't carry on an intelligent conversation without resorting to the type of stereotypical rhetoric which you yourself would condemn if applied to any OTHER group, then push on... This is off-topic, and you've been repeatedly reminded about it. There's no excuse for any continuation. If it happens again, I'm going to ask Sheila to impose a complete boycott of ANY conversation with you by ALL participants. I know trying to shut you out is pointless, as you don't believe that rules should apply to you, but we can sure as Hell enforce a total boycott of you. You can participate or agitate, but you can't do both! ___ * MR/2 2.26 * OS/2 WARP: Not just another pretty program loader! --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Reading Room, Woodstock NY, 914-679-4602 (1:272/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1Z00001 Date: 01/29/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 03:03pm \/To: FRANK TOPPING (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: Ebonic Plague FT> MS> I notice the student did not have to talk in FT> MS> "Ebonics" to congressmen, probably because he knew it FT> MS> would not impress them _and_ because few of them would FT> MS> understand it if "Ebonics" was indeed a "foreign FT> MS> language" that they never studied. FT> FT> I never said a student needed to talk in Ebonics or any other FT> dialect. FT> I don't believe they should be encouraged to use it but if frustrated FT> in younger years it would be far better to feel free to get a FT> question FT> out than sit mute out of frustration and shame. There's a professor who became famous about 10 years ago for his way of getting students to learn French fluently. He took these college students up to a small town in Quebec for three weeks (as a summer course), and they _had_ to learn French to interact with the locals even to the extent of asking where the toilet was or ordering food at the local cafe. He ran this course each summer, and his students got fluent in conversational French in three weeks. If English-speaking college kids could learn French this way, why not take a similar approach with K-12 kids whose native language is "Ebonics" in order to get them to learn standard English? FT> In the case of inner-city kids studying programming I don't think FT> it would hurt to lighten the moment *occasionally* by saying FT> something FT> like raising a chips *CS & *WE means "Heads up dude! You be gettin' FT> this". I don't have any problem with that. But you don't need bilingual-education money to do that! FT> If young children are coming to school with Ebonics as a familiar FT> base FT> that is even "partially set" it would be far better to deal with it FT> as a special ed situation rather than trying to jockey around it out FT> of ignorance. That just creates a stressful situation for the child School is stressful for _all_ children, not just those who speak "Ebonics". Ask any kid of any race whether school is stressful just after his big math test. FT> In the medical profession -- have they recognized that a home FT> environment setting for birthing is less stressful? They sure have! That has not resulted in most deliveries being at home. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1Z00002 Date: 01/29/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 03:06pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: "Greedy"? CB> WJ> While taxpayers may be asleep from time to time....they CB> WJ> will wake up. CB> CB> FT> Sounds like you're a republican. CB> FT> I'm a firm believer in waking up the taxpayer on economics. CB> CB> Not all republicans are greedy Frank. Unfortunately, those that are, CB> they CB> are very loud. No GOP member could outdo an NEA leader for "greed"! It's unfair to call Republicans "greedy" when many were Democrats only 10 years ago: how is "greed" any more Republican than Democrat? --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1Z00003 Date: 01/29/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 08:35pm \/To: WILLIAM LIPP (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: Customers WL> customers in the strictest sense because the education market is WL> very different from an idealized marketplace considered in WL> economic theory. In looking for the analogy of customer, each WL> of you has chosen an analogy that serves your purposes. Matt is WL> most concerned about the financial aspects of education, so he WL> has chosen an analogy that captures the economic power of WL> idealized customers. WL> public debate of how to structure our public education system - WL> especially when that debate considers the considers the possible WL> continuation of public education without public schools. My view of who the K-12 "customer" is goes beyond the possible continuation of public education without public schools. If the adult citizen is dissatisfied with public education, whether or not it is confined to public schools, that citizen will not vote for spending more of his tax money on K-12 education. Instead, he will vote down tax and bond referendums, regardless of whether a voucher system is financed with tax money. This happened already in California's voucher referendum, where affluent suburbanites whose kids already went to good schools voted against vouchers. But it particularly is crucial to the continued existence of public schools that the customer as I define him be satisfied. Vouchers will not come about overnight, so public schools will need the voter's support at the polls. That support at the polls (with vouchers) would then increasingly depend on convincing the voting-age public that the public schools deliver something for them even though their kid isn't in them. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1^00000 Date: 01/29/97 From: DALE HILL Time: 08:02pm \/To: WILLIAM LIPP (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Deming WL> I just read an article in Fortune magazine on "who is the customer." WL> In the business context, it was the fad a while ago for departments Which issue was this in? I'd be interested in reading it as it relates directly to the curriculum I teach. WL> idealized customers. You are most concerned with the delivery of WL> services aspects of education, so you have chosen an analogy WL> that captures that aspect of idealized customers. Neither one WL> of you is wrong, but you're talking at cross purposes. The WL> selection of a an appropriate model should be tied to the WL> problem being solved. Your model is most appropriate for the WL> central topics of this echo; Matt's is more appropriate for the WL> public debate of how to structure our public education system - Ahhh, I guess that was the issue in the first place, the use of "quality" principles in education. I believe it was Carl that introduced the subject sometime ago. True, my spin on it has been focused on the classroom rather than the more political issues. I'll have to check out the article you mention, thanks for the comments. Dale --- TriDog v11.0 * Origin: The SPECTRUM BBS * 701-280-2343 * Fargo, ND * (1:2808/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1^00001 Date: 01/29/97 From: SHEILA KING Time: 08:22pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 7 times) Subj: Deming -> Frank, I'm getting seriously tired of this bs. If you can't -> carry on an intelligent conversation without resorting to Ron, While I appreciate your frustration with this individual, I would remind you to (according to the guidelines) not respond to inappropriate posts in the conference, and leave the moderating to yours truly. I am glad to receive remarks about this type of thing in netmail and e-mail. FWIW, Frank now has two warnings. Any echo participant who receives three will be suspended from participating in the echo. Sheila King Moderator, EDUCATOR 1:218/804 cking@cyberg8t.com --- PCBoard (R) v15.3/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1^00002 Date: 01/30/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 10:54pm \/To: DALE HILL (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: Deming DH> WL> I just read an article in Fortune magazine on "who is the DH> customer." DH> WL> In the business context, it was the fad a while ago for DH> departments DH> DH> Which issue was this in? I'd be interested in reading it as it DH> relates directly to the curriculum I teach. I don't see how relevant the article would be to the issue of who the "customer" is in K-12 public schools. Fortune's article is in the context of total customer choice without added cost for buying the same product/service from another supplier, where suppliers have no right to coerce payment from non-buyers, and where suppliers are free to seek the cheapest labor (even abroad) and fire inefficient employees at will in order to please the customer base as much as possible. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1^00003 Date: 01/30/97 From: DALE HILL Time: 09:25pm \/To: LOUIE GONSALVES (Read 3 times) Subj: Question... LG> Also, I'd like to know how would I go about contacting school offici LG> (location not important, just a general idea) on how to volunteer my LG> to teach a one-day class regarding BBSs and FidoNet communications. Hey Louie, Fancy meeting you here ;) I talked with my daughter's teacher and then the principal. They were very excited about having me come in and do some workshops in the school. I'm trying to get them hooked up with the K12Net via Fid technology--since I hub it into ND, it'd be no charge for the local schools--a very appealing offer. Your best bet is to visit administrators, ask to speak to their technology committee...that worked well for me. Dale --- TriDog v11.0 * Origin: The SPECTRUM BBS * 701-280-2343 * Fargo, ND * (1:2808/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1^E2669 Date: 01/31/97 From: BRUCE MCFAUL Time: 10:44am \/To: FRANK TOPPING (Read 10 times) Subj: R: Ebonic Plague On 1-24-97 FRANK TOPPING wrote to RON MCDERMOTT: FT> Education is many things -- a friend of mine once brought a stack of photos to work his merchant seaman father had taken in mainland China during the 30's. ...one photo shows a woeful looking young man kneeling with head bent before a Japanese officer holding a sword. The next photo showed ... FT> Another shot showed a rather simple but attractive young chinese female tied to a post, ... The next pkoto showed he minus ... ***************************************** Nice piece of descriptive writing, Frank. It conjured up powerful and compelling images. But it was uncalled for. It would have been quite sufficient for your argument to note that atrocities occur. Had you thought it absolutely necessary to elaborate, I suggest it would have sufficed to note that beheadings and mutilations took place. You went out of your way to startle your readers with a disturbingly graphic description of these atrocities. I found it offensive. Furthermore, there surely must be a few youngsters who occasionally read in this international echo to see what The Teachers talk about amongst themselves. Do you wish to leave these youngsters with such images? What about a rape, surely a common occurrence during wartime and times of oppression? What graphic details would you have included had you been depicting a rape, Frank? Your shockingly graphic description reflected poor judgment and poor taste. Do you not think your writing skills might be better employed CONSTRUCTIVELY advancing your arguments? The next time you feel the urge to shock us in this echo, suppress it, won't you please, Frank?