--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1T00000 Date: 01/22/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:52pm \/To: FRANK TOPPING (Read 6 times) Subj: Re: Deming FT> MS> You'll never satisfy your customer base if you FT> MS> misidentify the customer you must satisfy. FT> FT> ...how about society as a whole I agree that _adult_ society is the customer base for K-12 schools. The superintendent of the Guilford County Schools was on TV last night. He pointed out that 3/4 of county residents do _not_ have kids in public schools. Convincing these people they are getting a good deal for their taxes is problematic. Parents of public-school students, though, are a key part of the customer base, since if they take their kid out of the public school you can bet they will never politically support public education by voting for higher taxes while they are paying tuition because of what they perceive as the inadequacy of local public schools. FT> Business and industry, fellow citizens, present and future family of FT> the student, society as a whole, the student themselves. FT> They're all customers at one time or another. The second-grade student is no more the "customer" of the K-12 school he attends than a dog is a veterinarian's "customer". Only the person who's either paying the bill (taxpayer) or choosing the supplier (parent) can be taken seriously as a "customer" in K-12 schools, for the same reason that only the dog's owner can be seen as the veterinarian's "customer". --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1T00001 Date: 01/22/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:58pm \/To: LORI HATHAWAY (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: Customers and Suppliers in K-12 LH> Sorry to barge in on you and Matt regarding parents as customers. To LH> a LH> certain extent I can agree with you and what you are saying about LH> pleasing and satisfying "customers". However, when it comes to the LH> younger student variety that Matt and I work with (i.e.age 13 under) LH> there is no pleasing the customer. I say this in not an LH> argumentative LH> way to those parents who are actively interested in the education of LH> their child. The general parent public in our state is having a LH> difficult time facing true facts about their child's learning LH> processes Some of my "customers" (clients) have equally-hard times accepting the true facts about their legal matters, but I either please my clients or lose them. LH> as it is, without having to deal with deciding how to shop for a LH> school Ask any _realtor_ if parents are shopping for schools when buying a house. School quality is a major issue for parents buying homes, and a major factor in housing prices. LH> But to have to please students who can barely make decisions between LH> what is right and what is wrong is truely almost an impossibility. Which is exactly why the student is not the "customer" in K-12 education any more than a dog is the "customer" of a veterinarian. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1T00002 Date: 01/23/97 From: MATT SMITH Time: 07:42pm \/To: FRANK TOPPING (Read 6 times) Subj: Re: EBONIC PLAGUE FT> MS> Black columnists have blasted Oakland's "Ebonics" FT> MS> proposal as educational disaster for black kids. Read FT> MS> Walter Williams' many articles on "black English" (and FT> MS> now) "Ebonics". A black Chicago Tribune columnist who FT> MS> admits to having grown up speaking "Ebonics" blasted FT> MS> the whole idea of schools _accepting_ it as a FT> MS> legitimate language. FT> FT> Yes, it has been pointed out that there is a lack of successful FT> blacks (great numbers of anyway) returning to help those still FT> in need. ...kinda like white flight. Open up the editorial page of USA Today this week. A black woman from Brooklyn wrote a letter to the editor against the whole idea of accepting "Ebonics" as a language for school use. Or stay with California papers. I hear that a high school kid in Oakland wrote a letter to the editor opposing the "Ebonics" proposal. Haven't you seen the articles quoting black teachers and students in Oakland who not only oppose the "Ebonics" proposal, but who find it laughable? --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1T00003 Date: 01/23/97 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 07:07pm \/To: LORI HATHAWAY (Read 3 times) Subj: Customers and Suppliers in K-12 LH> as customers. To a LH> certain extent I can agree with you and what you are saying about LH> pleasing and satisfying "customers". However, when it comes to the LH> younger student variety that Matt and I work with (i.e.age 13 under) You are mistaken if you think Matt works with students-he has done only a limited amount of tutoring. The rest of his "mantra" comes from his political leanings. LH> there is no pleasing the customer. I say this in not an argumentative LH> way to those parents who are actively interested in the education of LH> their child. The general parent public in our state is having a The actual topic of our conversation was about Dr. W. Edward Deming and his style of management. The student is a customer, no matter what age, the teacher is sometimes a customer also. You would have to read all of the posts I have made over the past few months to begin to see that Deming's ideas are about managing people and the systems at work. I have taught students younger, I do know that the education process can be pleasing for them, (however, not always), most of the time. For a more educational view of Continual Quality Improvement, read "The Team Handbook for Educators" by Joiner. LH> But to have to please students who can barely make decisions between LH> what is right and what is wrong is truely almost an impossibility. Pleasing students can take many forms. Haven't you ever worked with a student that was having trouble learning a concept, yet-the both of you worked and finally succeeded? Money can't buy the appreciation a student gives you when they know they have succeeded. Isn't that "pleasing" the customer? Just wanted you to know before you jumped in as to what you were quoting as it was Matt Smith's reply to me that you quoted, as Dale was quoting it back to Matt---which is too confusing at this hour of night! --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1U00000 Date: 01/24/97 From: FRANK TOPPING Time: 09:04am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 5 times) Subj: Huked On Ebonics Werked F Hi Dan! DT> "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, DT> like, ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the DT> Committee for the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in DT> Southern California. "I mean, like, you know?" she added. Eeew, gag me with a spoon Valley boy. That's Sheila's country. :) DT> "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the DT> Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer DT> dudes? Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black DT> computer dude; it's like you be talkin' to a robot -- RAM, DOS, Sounds like the congressman from NC that spoke on the issue at the congressional hearings. :) :) :) ...talk about a dialect. Whew! That was cute. Best, -frank:) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Sacramento Peace Child! Sacramento CA (916)451-0282 (1:203/451) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1U00001 Date: 01/23/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 01:45am \/To: LORI HATHAWAY (Read 5 times) Subj: Customers and Suppliers in K-12 01:45:2301/23/97 LORI HATHAWAY On (21 Jan 97) was overheard to say to DALE HILL Hey Lori.... LH> However, when it comes to the younger student variety that Matt LH> and I work with (i.e.age 13 under) Just FYI...Matt Smith is not an educator of any student variety. He is a lawyer specializing, he has said, in collections. LH> This just goes to say they accept placement of children after too LH> brief explanations, apathetically or financially accept the LH> control of where their child goes to school and then are furious LH> when their child has discipline or educational problems in school. LH> They are justified in some of this anger, but lack trust in LH> judgement from experts in the system. You seem to be saying two different things there... they are accepting placement of their children. based on what if not some degree of trust? Yes..parents become angry when the perception, rightly or wrongly, is that their child is being short changed or unfairly singled out. LH> Maybe this is something that the school system needs to LH> address.MEANING - be patient with explanations, There is no maybe about it. Schools do an extremely poor job of communicating with parents and the community at large. 'THE' contact point for most parents is a teacher, if and when that teacher for whatever reason(s) is unable or unwilling to answer a question that sets the tone for all future interactions. It is extremely bad practice and even worse PR for teachers, admins or school boards to project an image of "we know best and this is what we _are_ going to do". I don't tell my doctor how to practice medicine but you can be sure I demand (nicely of course) an explanation of where he is going with any treatment plan he thinks the situation calls for...he doesn't have a problem with this. I find it just too difficult to understand why so many educators assume an automatic defensive (adversarial?) posture when they are questioned about what they are doing and why. LH> contact the parents more frequently, home visits. In elementary school yes frequent contact is a good idea. I exchange notes with my son's teacher all the time and have had 3 "not required" conferences so far this year. It's a tougher nut than that when you get to the middle and high schools...too many kids ... to little time. Fifty years ago home visits were not at all uncommon. When I was still in the school system at least one home visit before Thanksgiving was, while not a requirement, almost a necessity especially if I had a "new" kid. (Special Ed). ... Every person you meet knows something you don't. Learn! --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1U00002 Date: 01/24/97 From: FRANK TOPPING Time: 12:48am \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 12 times) Subj: Ebonic Plague Hi Ron! FT>Hitler had the model you seem to espouse down pat. I imagine FT>that Gengis Kahn did too. RM> A bit loaded, don't you think ..... I wouldn't do that Ron -- you know me better than that. RM> Out of curiosity, and RM> keeping in mind the traditional Japanese xenophobia RM> (actually it's more along the lines of "we're civilized and RM> the rest of the world is barbarian"), would you also add the RM> Japanese to this list? Certainly they have shown little RM> regard for other cultures beyond absorbing those things they RM> felt worthwhile? And, I suppose, one would have to define RM> "culture"..... Education is many things -- a friend of mine once brought a stack of photos to work his merchant seaman father had taken in mainland China during the 30's. ...one photo shows a woeful looking young man kneeling with head bent before a Japanese officer holding a sword. The next photo showed his head on the ground and while still in the kneeling position his neck was spurting blood into the air at least fifteen feet. Another shot showed a rather simple but attractive young chinese female tied to a post, stripped to the waist -- officer w/ sword next to her. The next pkoto showed he minus her breasts bleading profusely from the chest. I'm not ignorant that the world can be cruel -- just hopeful that we can move from that as far and as fast as we can. The historic photos in our own land of lynchings of Blacks and others is testimony we need to take it seriously. Best, -frank:) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Sacramento Peace Child! Sacramento CA (916)451-0282 (1:203/451) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1V00000 Date: 01/24/97 From: DALE HILL Time: 07:51pm \/To: ANDY TIMMS (Read 2 times) Subj: Mentor AT> thanks for your words of encouragment! ;) do you have an internet AT> e-mail address mine is: andy.timms@nivets.com sure: dale@spectrumbbs.com Since this is getting off topic for this conference, lets switch it to email. :) Dale --- TriDog v11.0 * Origin: The SPECTRUM BBS * 701-280-2343 * Fargo, ND * (1:2808/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1V00001 Date: 01/25/97 From: FRANK TOPPING Time: 05:43am \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 7 times) Subj: Ebonic Plague Hi again, Ron! FT>Hitler had the model you seem to espouse down pat. I imagine FT>that Gengis Kahn did too. RM> A bit loaded, don't you think ..... Out of curiosity, and RM> keeping in mind the traditional Japanese xenophobia RM> (actually it's more along the lines of "we're civilized and RM> the rest of the world is barbarian"), would you also add the RM> Japanese to this list? Certainly they have shown little RM> regard for other cultures beyond absorbing those things they RM> felt worthwhile? And, I suppose, one would have to define RM> "culture"..... RM> ___ I just had to come back to your reply here and inquire why you wondered if I'd include the Japanese. Now I'm curious. :) They are a most interesting culture indeed -- terribly in denial of quite a bit about themselves, but then again so are we. "...little regard for other cultures beyond absorbing those things they felt worthwhile?" ...some things that have titilated them they seem to a*d*sorb as well. Interesting what catches their fancy. Rodeos, anything "Western", our "American Grafiti" memorabilia like old cars and coke machines. ...even hydraulic "low rider" jumping cars. ...adsorbed. Some of our democratic political systems, Levis, and lately labor standards trends. Yep, there is an absorption going on there. Culture? ...well, as I see it here looking back at me from my petri dish it kinda looks like yogurt. I'd say that they have cultured themselves to death if asked. :) ...as you said, no appreciation for other cultures. We've got elements of that same xenophobia in the older white european population in America don't you think? I think being cultured could include as broad an understanding of other cultures as possible. ...at least I believe it could be enriched by it. Let me clarify that I don't ascribe the same degree of rigidity to Japanese Americans. The national Japanese seem to be rather shallow in so many respects in their culture for a seeming lack of appreciation of others. As individuals who have chosen to make America their home I believe they are enriched by broadening their appreciation for others. ...certainly they have made many great contributions to our society as all of our ethnic flavors have. ...btw, I think many believe the term ethnic excludes caucasions judging by how you hear it used. I don't. Ok, I covered my feelings on national Japanese barbarism in my first response so I won't return to that. Sure -- there are *many* other examples; hardly a country that doesn't have a few skeletons in their closet. The one we're looking at right now though is the USA. How do *we* define culture? I see prisoners being used to save the butts of home after home of people who use "culture" as an exclusionary tool -- one that will be used to keep people from getting a job. My value system holds that if you are willing to help save a home for a family (or a town) in a flood that you shouldn't be sh*t on when the floodwaters recede. White America *will* do that yaknow. Can you be cultured and not have honor? I keep hearing of axamples of people in meetings with one or another seated president where *extremely* crude language was used so it can't be that social position guarantees that one is "cultured". Many people seem to be down on Black Americans in general yet some of the most stellar examples of grace and poise were just shown to us by Mr. Cosby -- contrast that to an upper-crust white family burying their daughter wearing a tiera and hiring a press agent. Strange. ...dunno, but I don't think I could put it better than the HS student from Oakland who said (in wonderful english): "if my teacher and I don't understand each other learning doesn't occur". (before congress) Too many hoops are set up simply to exclude and accomplish *very* little else all to often. I'd rather see english banned from the workplace than see us fail to reach just one little kid from the inner city who might grow up to be something besides a Prudential executive officer with nothing but larceny on his mind. Seems like the ones we call "cultured" should be in jail and the ones in jail should be out in the workforce if you ask me. What's "cultured" to you, Ron? What *really* matters? I'm really proud that Oakland raised the issue. Best, -frank:) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Sacramento Peace Child! Sacramento CA (916)451-0282 (1:203/451) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: E1V00002 Date: 01/25/97 From: DALE HILL Time: 05:51am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: Continuous Quality Improvement CB> Yes, there are links to the TQM database there. However, I am a lit CB> TQM as it seems to be more management by objective than real Deming I use the term "TQM" as a generic reference to teaching quality principles. I've seen it called many things in the years that I've been teaching it and even more in the years I've been exposed to it as a student. (6 and 9 yrs respectively). I remember in some of my early awareness training the assurances that "quality" would do away with the buzz words, catch phrases and actually focus on the processes that we do, it'd be looked upon as a philosopy for living rather than a program to implement...sad thing is that's a tough message for some people to understand and internalize. For many people, quality *is* a philosophy, a way of being if you will, too many though look at it as a program to "install". I've always taught it as a "common sense" model, one of the first definitions I learned in the quality arena was that quality was considered "doing the right thing, the right way, the first time around" and to me that was simply common sense. The AF does not follow a strict Deming approach, but has integrated components from several of who are considered the "Quality Pioneers". Dale --- TriDog v11.0 * Origin: The SPECTRUM BBS * 701-280-2343 * Fargo, ND * (1:2808/1)