--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGJ00001 Date: 12/14/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 2 times) Subj: U.S. Algebra Curriculum DT>Hey....could this have been a qualitative study? Sounds like a DT>comparative study...observational study.... RM>Observational does not mean qualitative... I would venture RM>to say that much of the data was numerical, thus the study RM>was quantitative... DT>If someone merely compares numerical data that makes it quantitative? The data is quantitative, and depending on one's point of view, ANY conclusions would be quantitative. If one were to be a stickler, the conclusions would be quantitative only if numbers were stated. The study as a whole is quantitative. DT>Would that also make it scientifically acceptable? Scientific means scientific method, period; it pertains to a methodology, not to the type of data or conclusion... DT>Does the simple fact that a study looks at data from a numerical DT>point of view make it quantitative? Yes, by definition... DT>If so, how must the data be interpreted (what methods used?) to DT>qualify as a scientific study? It's not only a question of how the data is interpreted, but also of how the data is COLLECTED. Isolation of variables, controls, manipulation of variables, etc all have to be in place during data collection if the data is to mean anything scientifically.... SK>-> conclusion: " . . . despite its almost universal acceptance in DT> ^^^^^^^^^^ SK>-> the U.S., our algebra curriculum -- late, abruptly introduced SK>-> and isolated -- is simply beyond repair," writes WCER. WCER is SK>-> located at the school of education, U of Wisconsin-Madison. RM>And once again, despite the numerical data, the conclusion RM>is pure supposition since it totally ignores any number of RM>socioeconomic and cultural considerations.... DT>Ratty... I beg your pardon? DT>I think you answered my above question here...but...... If not, then the clarifications here should finish the job.. DT>I think I've gotten confused a bit here. As I tell my students, confusion is the natural order of things; you'll spend more time confused than any other way! DT>A few chapters into the book should provide me with enough information DT>to make me an instant expert (grin).....and then you better be DT>prepared for some tough questions. Have pity! It's taken me 2 months or more to get us to the point where we agree on the terminology! ;-) DT>Hey.....Merry Christmas if I don't hear from you sooner. You too, my friend.... And the best of New Years... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * MSDOS&PCDOS&CP/M&WINDOWSI'LLFIDDLEWITHOS/2WOULDN'TYOU? --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Reading Room, Woodstock NY, 914-679-4602 (1:272/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGJ00002 Date: 12/14/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:43am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 2 times) Subj: Research And More... 1/ RM>The methodology can be neither qualitative nor RM>quantitative, only the data and conclusions can be... DT>Yeah....Im trying to get this straight in my head....... DT>Sometimes have to think so much it hurts..... My students sometimes say the same thing! ;-) DT>Generally speaking the seven conditions that Cambourne DT>identified are all important and necessary. RM>Based upon what test? Simply because they show up over and RM>over? DT>Because I said so......(I hated hearing that when I was a kid.....) Heh.... It's nice to "see" you operating in such a good mood; you're obviously not one of those who gets depressed during this season..... RM>On this basis, one might conclude that the RM>development of civilization requires the wholesale slaughter RM>of large numbers of people periodically. Now I don't happen RM>to believe that, and I don't suggest we try an experiment RM>with controls, but the inference is "reasonable" based on RM>multiple observations over long time intervals. It's also RM>"reliable"... Is it valid? DT>This is a silly comparison Ron. RM>It certainly is not... This is exactly the process about RM>which we are talking: Observations of data and inferential RM>conclusion. That this particular conclusion is unacceptable RM>to you does not alter the fact that the process is exactly RM>that which you wish to consider "equal" to the scientific RM>process - It isn't and never will be.... DT>I think it is silly because it is such an extreme example. Taking a train of thought and extending it to an absurdity or contradiction is a time-honored process known as a negative proof.... ;-) DT>There must be a logical fallacy to your argument but I can't think DT>of what it could be offhand. Hey I know....it's the Quantum Leap DT>fallacy.... Nice try! ;-) Actually, there are a number of people who sort of subscribe to this philosophy - That civilization and humankind must be tempered as with a sword in flame. Survival of the fittest and all that. I'm sure Nietsche would (or did) embrace the concept, and the idea of a "master race" is a natural outgrowth of this type of thinking. The idea of adversity strengthening an individual - What doesn't kill me makes me stronger - follows from this line of thinking as well..... Clearly, some do not consider this as being an absurd view.. RM>It makes me a skeptic; which is a very healthy thing to be, RM>in general. I try not to get "wed" to the rantings of RM>others...... ;-) DT>You aren't suggesting I'm a ranter are you? Heavens no! DT>Upon what are you basing your pedagogical beliefs? RM>Ah... My ACTIONS are based upon the collection of data; RM>which includes educational literature, personal observation, RM>commonsense, logical deduction. As a human, I am forced to RM>ACT in this fashion. As a scientist, I weigh the import of RM>the data, and that factors into my decisionmaking process. RM>The necessity that I act forces me to consider even suspect RM>conclusions when determining my course of action, but I RM>would never give them the weight I do to scientifically RM>derived conclusions.... DT>This makes a lot of sense and really clarifies for me you thinking DT>about some of the matters we have discussed. Good.... We're often discussing IDEALS here, or an idea as an independent concept, but the reality is that we seldom get to deal with ideals in our everyday life, and ideas are seldom independent of other considerations. We have to ACT in a more subjective manner... DT>I suppose in many ways we operate similarly All humans HAVE to; it's in our nature to process and act in accordance with either inductive reasoning or blind . --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Reading Room, Woodstock NY, 914-679-4602 (1:272/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGJ00003 Date: 12/14/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:43am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 2 times) Subj: Research And More... 2/ obedience (which is the easier, though more dangerous, of the two)... DT>with the exception that I am probably more easily swayed by those DT>that I regard as more knowledgeable in my field. That's fair enough... Actually, this discussion has catalyzed my reasons for concern with things like the theory of evolution; it is an inferential conclusion and has not, to my knowledge, been scientifically established. I don't mean to get into this particular debate, simply wished to use this as an example in the context of our discussion.. ___ * MR/2 2.26 * WIN95: Start me up,...you can make a grown man cryyyyy! --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Reading Room, Woodstock NY, 914-679-4602 (1:272/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGJ00004 Date: 12/14/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 07:50pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 5 times) Subj: Re: Exit Exam??? RM> CB>Well, here we go again--- RM> CB>The public demands quality graduates-- RM> CB>Schools test--- RM> RM> But no exit exams and no national test.... Ford, Chrysler, and GM each have their own _separate_ quality-control procedures, including "exit exams". Just as there is no national, industry-standard quality-control system on car makers, quality control in education does not require national standards. Indeed, waiting for the adoption of national standards would take longer than states or even individual districts doing it themselves, due to political delays...a local school board or superintendent moves faster than congress. RM> To a certain extent, NY has exit exams in courses called the RM> Regents exams... They have been "working" for a good many RM> years now. This is your own acknowledgement of quality control in K-12 education being possible without national standards. RM> grades in lesser courses. Does Mr. Deming take into account RM> that in education, the product interacts with the process RM> and can be influenced in its (the product's) actions? When RM> making a tv, this isn't a factor .... Not exactly so. Quality-control professionals in manufacturing _daily_ have to face problems in their product deriving from poor-quality components bought from outside. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00000 Date: 12/14/96 From: LORI HATHAWAY Time: 03:54pm \/To: DALE HILL (Read 1 times) Subj: repond to tridog hello again - can't believe that I'm talking to someone from ND. This is new, this internet thing for me. I guess old dogs can learn new tricks, right? My kids at school are thrilled that I am involved with computers. I have been involved and learning with them since 1980 when one of my students brought one to school for "show and tell". He taught me so much in one week that i went out and bought an Apple IIE the next month. I've been playing since. In all seriousness, teenagers today need teachers who stay up to date. One advanced techno buff is teaching me HTML right now and in turn he does his homework. Even so - back to this Surfing the net has been only in our area for two months. We now have our own server in addition to our BBS at the local community college. It's thanks to our youth that this has occurred. Curiosity and more info for my 8th graders - leads me to ask about your stint with the honor guard. What was best about your job? What did it mean as far as a schedule was concerned? And furthermore, did it lead to a step toward a career for you later? What is your career now? Or are you retired? Are you far from Fargo, ND? If I'm too curious, remember I'm still a teacher at least until the year 2004. Lori Some of my students are in NJROTC to answer the question why are they so curious. Lori --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GU * Origin: MTCC BBS! (704)652-0330 Telnet/FTP: bbs.mcdowell.cc.nc.us (1:3666/501) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00001 Date: 12/15/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 07:26am \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Exit Exam??? RM> But no exit exams and no national test.... MS>Ford, Chrysler, and GM each have their own _separate_ MS>quality-control procedures, including "exit exams". MS>Just as there is no national, industry-standard quality-control MS>system on car makers, quality control in education does not MS>require national standards. First of all, there ARE national standards, as well as state standards, for auto manufacturers, so this is a poor example for you to use. Secondly, the necessity, or lack thereof, for national standards overlooks the possibility that such standards may be adviseable or beneficial. MS>...a local school board or superintendent moves faster than congress. I think I can find some who would disagree! ;-) RM> To a certain extent, NY has exit exams in courses called the RM> Regents exams... They have been "working" for a good many RM> years now. MS>This is your own acknowledgement of quality control in MS>K-12 education being possible without national standards. SOME quality control... If SOME quality control is a good thing, why is MORE necessarily a bad thing? RM> Does Mr. Deming take into account that in education, the product RM> interacts with the process and can be influenced in its (the RM> product's) actions? When making a tv, this isn't a factor .... MS> Not exactly so. MS> Quality-control professionals in manufacturing _daily_ MS> have to face problems in their product deriving from poor- MS> quality components bought from outside... Which, of course, has nothing to do with my statement above! Of COURSE they share the problem of quality of incoming materials; that wasn't the issue! The issue raised is that a tv doesn't reach out and fiddle with the assembly process! How good would tvs be if each tv could elect to accept, or NOT accept, vital components? How about tvs that can absent themselves from the assembly line on days of their choice? ___ * MR/2 2.26 * See the Future; See OS/2. Be the Future; Run OS/2. --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: The Reading Room, Woodstock NY, 914-679-4602 (1:272/160) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00002 Date: 12/15/96 From: DAVID RAASCH Time: 02:03pm \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: school help 1 >DR> > DR> Well, I've been given an unofficial promotion at work / >DR> > DR> school....that of Computer Tech for the school ! >DR> >DR> >Are you sure it's a promotion? >DR> >DR> Heh-heh...sometimes, it sure doesn't SEEM that way ! > > You gotta be kidding! > As the "nerd", you are God. You are the person who people desperately >needing something done by tomorrow come to and _beg_ for help. > How true ! Of course, if they have a problem, they need it done by TODAY !! But you're right ! It's not hard for somebody who knows just A LITTLE about computers can get elevated to god-hood in almost no time ! ;) Too bad I can't bluff my way into a computer job instead of this crummy teaching one ! :) --- SLMAIL v4.5a (#4138) * Origin: "Let it Shine Online !" Independence, Missouri (1:280/285) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00003 Date: 12/15/96 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 02:48pm \/To: MILES MAXTED (Read 1 times) Subj: Spelling By Routman MM> These works are often cited by other authors up to MM> the late `50's, but MM> the search found no other sources; hope they might MM> be of some interest. Hmm, and the book I have is "The Development of Social Thoutht". Thanks for posting the titles. That makes four books--a very busy person. --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00004 Date: 12/15/96 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 02:53pm \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: exit exam??? CB> not produce quality, CB> testing CB> only finds defects. MS> Every other producer tests its product before MS> selling it, be the product cars or computers. MS> Those manufacturers think testing produces MS> quality, and are willing to spend many millions on MS> testing for that reason. Actually, I have never seen a quality check statement on a Deming managed product I have owned. Yet, I have seen quality checks in inferior products, mostly because they have inferior processes-therefore they rely on checks that find inferior goods and either remake them or scrap them, this increases the costs to the prospective buyer. Also, a company cannot run quality checks on every product, so some defects slip by, this also increases costs. That millions should be spent on new product development, not on correcting what should have been done right the first time. Do you enjoy sitting in a waiting room at an auto dealer while your defective auto is fixed? MS> And don't say education is "different". Schools test now as exit MS> exams in every course: if the kid doesn't pass his MS> tests in required courses, he gets a failing grade MS> and cannot graduate. MS> The only difference between the current MS> practice (exit exams on a step-by-step basis MS> within each course) and the proposed exit exam for MS> graduation is that the proposal is for an exit exam MS> covering more than one course. Again, this will not help the state to raise standards, it will only find the failures of the system. Tests create defects! How often does your client give you a test? MS> Cheating has gone on since their were math quizzes. Is that a MS> reason to abolish math quizzes? I don't think MS> there's any kind of school test, quiz, or homework MS> that some kids haven't cheated on for decades. CB> Yuck--I hope they drop the idea of an exit test--won't work. MS> Exit tests could build public and employer MS> confidence in public education by convincing the MS> public and employers that a kid who got a HS MS> degree actually _retained_ some of what he once MS> learned. So, why not drop tests and develop portfolios, projects, etc as exit requirements. What the student is capable of doing will be far more evident than a test that any dummy can score 25% without knowing anything. Example: Most tests of this sort are multiple-guess, most have four choices. I can take any multiple-choice test in the world, randomize my answers and score close to 25%. I have done this in a class and have since done this with my own students to prove to them it was possible. Now, if the person taking the test is halfway literate, the average can be raised to between 50-75% by tossing out the two choices that typically don't make sense and chosing between the remaining two. By literate, I mean in the language of the test--English, etc.. I have done this to pass tests in college--easy, yet many people place great confidence on a measure that is basically unreliable. Tests will not improve education. --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DGK00005 Date: 12/15/96 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 09:08pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 1 times) Subj: Exit Exam??? CB>Do we get quality graduates? No--testing does not produce CB>quality, testing only finds defects. RM> You've been repeating this mantra for some time now, and RM> with all due respect to Mr. Deming, I don't think that his RM> theories on manufacturing necessarily carry over to RM> education. Specifically, I find it hard to accept that RM> having exit exams wouldn't improve the quality of our RM> graduates. If nothing else, it would encourage students to Actually, his theories do carry over--I presume that his ideas about testing bother you. Actually, the type of test that you mention, (an exit test), might serve to motivate some-possibly raising their score, for others who are quite capable, it might decrease their score due to fear, etc.. I think that the quality of education a student receives would not increase at all--this is different from the quality of graduates that you speak about. You might find graduate quality---but where do you set the test level? One graduate a year, two, more??? Where do you set the level, (or the basket for Matt)? RM> grades in lesser courses. Does Mr. Deming take into account RM> that in education, the product interacts with the process RM> and can be influenced in its (the product's) actions? When RM> making a tv, this isn't a factor .... Yes, he does, but he also states that the student also is a customer and in all businesses where people are delt with, high quality can be achieved. Doesn't a doctor have the same problem with influence, a lawyer? Are you sure that the testing that is done in your state increases the quality of graduates? Test scores in several different national tests have been rising slowly over the past 10-15 years. Maybe the scores are due to some other factor. --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105)