--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFR00001 Date: 11/21/96 From: LEONA PAYNE Time: 11:04pm \/To: DONNA RANSDELL (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Privacy law >> CB> Are you allowed to put student's work in your resume' document? >> I see _major_ legal problems in doing that! DR> Is it illegal to carry a work portfolio of children's work and of parent DR> letters, to an interview? I have a notebook in which I keep copies of DR> children's work, photos of children at work in the classroom, letters DR> and comments from classroom parents, as well as the originals of all of DR> my reference letters. I wouldn't want to do this if it were illegal. Hi Donna, I've checked with district folks in the know. The opinion given is: If you remove the students' names & the work is not identifiable it's okay. If the work carries the students' names, the grade should not be displayed on it, unless you have a parental release. A good example of this is student art. Here in Phoenix, elementary schoolchildren's artwork is often publically displayed at shopping malls or in public offices (such as banks) along with such information as the students' names, grade level, teacher's name, & school. This is often done for art contests, too. Even if the child received a grade for the work as well as using as a contest submission, it's all right to display the work as long as there is no grade on it. The district person told me that an employer most likely would NOT be interested in seeing your students' work, but instead would like to see the work that you developed for your students. After all, YOU'RE the one they're hiring, not the student! ;^) FERPA is mostly concerned with the release of sensitive records such as transcripts; it does not forbid the public admiring Johnny's 3rd Grade rendition of a house, nor does it mean that Johnny's name can't be mentioned in public. BTW, you know, I wouldn't expect my gynecologist to be a brilliant plastic surgeon any more than I would expect a collections lawyer to be an expert on ed law. But that's just me. Leona Payne ... "Good thing it wasn't a Double Jeopardy question." -- Mulder --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. (602) 274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFR00002 Date: 11/21/96 From: LEONA PAYNE Time: 10:42pm \/To: PAUL KOUKOS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: FAILING UP TO 14% PK> Well that is a great attitude for a teacher if you are one. How PK> about trying and making the kids do their work on a daily basis. PK> Give them homowork daily, so the parents know that if their child PK> has 5 major subjects they can expect 5 homeworks. No excuses at PK> all. What about instead of sending out cards that a kid has PK> missed a day or two, make phone calls to the parents at home or PK> at work to make sure that they get the message. PK> When you start doing this, you will see the BIG improvement in PK> all of our kids. Paul, After the last 6 weeks I've spent, all I can do is to apologize to you, my students & their parents for not being omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent. The last parental phone call I made (Tuesday am) was spent listening to a father literally ranting about how I've made a BIG mistake, NO teacher should EVER fail a student & that ALL teachers are LAZY. Of course, this made me less than interested whether or not his son can raise his F in the next 4 weeks before the end of the marking period. I referred him to my immediate supervisor & hung up on him. Being as lazy as I am & having been up grading papers 4 hours the night before, you can imagine that I was a little cranky. From reading your message, I now realize that that dad is not alone in his blinkered delusion of just how much supervision I can exercise over 150 little people whom I see for just 50 minutes a day. I can't believe that you honestly believe that teachers have that much time in a day. Hell, let's be blunt. I didn't have time to go for a whiz for 4 hours today. Frankly, I think you need to reread the echo tag & consider your audience before you post again. I also think you need to shadow a teacher for a day or two before you add your personal touch to the job description. I know I'm not playing well with others today. So I'm going back to my quiet little corner of the sandbox. Mrs. Payne ... Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. (602) 274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFR00003 Date: 11/21/96 From: LEONA PAYNE Time: 11:03pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: busy-ness Dan, I know this is really, really old, but I've been busy herding Togolese children. I feel like I can barely speak English these days, let alone write it. I had kind of hoped the spelling monster thing would die, but since I see that it still hasn't & that you didn't get my point, I thought I'd just push it back at you. LP>>For what it's worth in regard to the invented spelling issue...I seem LP>>to remember being told in some university pedagogy class that it LP>>takes an average of only two to three repetitions to learn something, LP>>but it takes an average of 27-30 reps to UNlearn something LP>>incorrectly learned. LP>>As a student, I was never corrected on certain words & STILL have LP>>problems remembering how to spell responsi/responsability. I KNOW LP>>it's responsi, but I WANT to spell it responsa, because that's the LP>>way I **always** did it & I never got it marked wrong. Oh, well. DT> Great Leona...but approximated spellings are not learned spellings and DT> do NOT have to be unlearned. Most people misunderstand this point and DT> many seem to ignore it altogether. No, Dan, I wasn't ignoring it. I DO think that approximated spellings can be learned & retained in the student's memory as being correct, hence the example of my own experience. I was making the point that if a correction isn't made at SOME period in a student's life, the student could end up in a situation similar to that in which one of my 8th graders found himself last year: he named his grafitti tagging team the SSK (Siko Skatin' Krew.) No one ever bothered telling him that "psycho" starts with a silent p. Needless to say, my 7th period class reamed him publicly which, altho' he denied it, embarrassed him when it was pointed out by the students that he was emblazoning his spelling error on walls around downtown. I won't even address the k for krew. Me, I just type responsability a couple of times a year & echo it internationally. Nothing big. I'm sure you'll feel impelled to reply since this seems to be a crusade for you, but I'm bored now. ;^) I'm wondering how to get my Togolese girls to learn to spell this ridiculous language. ... "The `H' stands for horrible, right?" -- Lister's Confidence --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. (602) 274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00000 Date: 11/16/96 From: MILES MAXTED Time: 05:26am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 1 times) Subj: Spelling By Routman G'morning Carl, You waxed enthusiastic over a programme you called `Accelorated Reading' in a message on this echo, and offered... CB> It is a great program, if you want more information, let me know. So, please could I ask for more detail ? Author, publisher, platform and email address ? Our school network could well do with a programme of that order.... :-) --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: === NZMC Maxie BBS. Ak, NZ +64 9 444-0989 === (3:772/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00001 Date: 11/21/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 07:21pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: School System CB> mentioned that is a problem with math instruction is that there are CB> too CB> many concepts to be covered in each year so the students learn too CB> little CB> about too much and never master concepts fully. Since postings are CB> no more CB> than 5-10 posts per day, maybe you can review old postings. CB> On ABC's evening news, the book for a Japanese math course was shown CB> and CB> compared to a U.S. book. The Japanese book looked like it had about CB> 80-100 CB> pages to the U.S. book's 300+ pages. But what about print size, page margins, etc.? Not knowing Japanese, I don't know (and I doubt that the reporter did either) how the book compares to a U.S. counterpart in number of problems, total words, etc. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00002 Date: 11/19/96 From: DONNA RANSDELL Time: 05:09pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Privacy law > If you were showing examples of student's work to > Jane or John Doe on > the street there might be some privacy/legal > implications. However, > you are showing them (probably) to employees of the > school system the > kid attends - as such they theoretically could look Not necessarily. I have a collection of children's work that I've collected over the years - most of it given to me by students themselves (little kids give their hearts if you let them). If I cover the student's name, what would be the harm of showing these examples of the things I get my students to do, in an interview situation? -donna --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: I touch the future; I teach. (1:202/211) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00003 Date: 11/22/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:01pm \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Busy-Ness LEONA PAYNE spoke of Re: busy-ness to DAN TRIPLETT on 11-21-96 LP>Dan, LP>I had kind of hoped the spelling monster thing would die, but since I LP>see that it still hasn't & that you didn't get my point, I thought LP>I'd just push it back at you. I read your previous message to Paul. I had hope you got it out of your system before responding to me. :) For what it's worth, I agreed with you. I have an 18 year old and I happen to believe he is responsible for getting his gpa below a 3.0 (and not I and not his teachers) and pulling only 1 A (In weight lifting...get real)....and the rest were sluff-off c's. He has gotten nearly all A's and only a few C's when he applies himself. About the spelling thing...it had all but died out so if it comes to life again, well, you will have had something to do with it being "reborn". :) LP>LP>>For what it's worth in regard to the invented spelling issue...I LP>LP>>seem to remember being told in some university pedagogy class LP>LP>>that it takes an average of only two to three repetitions to LP>LP>>learn something, but it takes an average of 27-30 reps to UNlearn LP>LP>>something incorrectly learned. Students should be made aware that their spellings are _attempts_ and for beginning writers (first graders) approximated spellings are what we are going to get if we have them try their hand at writing. The bigger question for some is "Why have students who cannot spell many words correctly write at all?" Some believe that students should first learn correct conventions of writing before they attempt to write anything. Of course, this is not my view. LP>LP>>As a student, I was never corrected on certain words & STILL have LP>LP>>problems remembering how to spell responsi/responsability. I LP>LP>>KNOW it's responsi, but I WANT to spell it responsa, because LP>LP>>that's the way I **always** did it & I never got it marked wrong. LP>LP>>Oh, well. Certain words still give me trouble and I did not grow up with invented spelling. I don't think invented spelling is the issue. It seems to me that the issue is that when students are doing something incorrect, teachers have a repsonsibility to try and help those students learn how to do "it" correctly. This would be true for any area of learning I would think. For me, students should learn how to do something correctly when they can cognitively handle the information and apply it. For example: I teach chess. I see mistakes being made all the time. I don't correct each mistake because some chess concepts and strategies are way over the heads of even some of my more experienced players. But as my players are ready for more abstract concepts, (discovered checks, forks, combinations, pawn structure, related squares, king opposition and end game technique) then I present the information. When I see mistakes being made that should not be made, I go over the concept again. LP> DT> Great Leona...but approximated spellings are not learned LP> DT> spellings and do NOT have to be unlearned. Most people LP> DT> misunderstand this point and many seem to ignore it altogether. LP> LP>No, Dan, I wasn't ignoring it. I DO think that approximated LP>spellings can be learned & retained in the student's memory as being LP>correct, hence the example of my own experience. We are both correct. Maybe we define approximated spelling differently? LP>I was making the point that if a correction isn't made at SOME period LP>in a student's life, I fully agree with you here and I believe it should start early. I think that anytime a student publishes his/her work that all spelling errors should be corrected by then. I wouldn't begin this too early in the child's writing experiences but I would begin correcting *some* errors in the 1st grade. The higher the grade level, the higher my expectations would be for correct spelling. Also, words that a student frequently misspells, especially words they should know at their grade level, I would expect to see these words spelled correctly in rough drafts. the student could end up in a situation similar LP>to that in which one of my 8th graders found himself last year: he LP>named his grafitti tagging team the SSK (Siko Skatin' Krew.) No one LP>ever bothered telling him that "psycho" starts with a silent p. LP>Needless to say, my 7th period class reamed him publicly which, LP>altho' he denied it, embarrassed him when it was pointed out by the LP>students that he was emblazoning his spelling error on walls around LP>downtown. I won't even address the k for krew. The fact that the other students knew how to spell these words could indicate that this particular student was one who did not work at improving his spelling -- (you know...like in the previous post). I'm not sure invented spelling can be blamed for this. However, I do agree that when students routinely misspell certain words, it is our job to provide them with spelling strategies so that they can become proficient spellers. LP>I'm sure you'll feel impelled to reply since this seems to be a LP>crusade for you, Is that a bad thing? Actually I rather like debating these issues since I learn so much from what others have to say. I truly believe in what I have said regarding Whole Language and spelling..but without the view point of others I can not fully examine my beliefs. If I only spoke to those whose viewpoints were similar to mine.....well...you know what I'd get. I'm wondering how to get my Togolese girls to learn to spell this ridiculous language. Huked on fonics? Appreciated what you had to say.....it is good food for thought and I will munch on it some more. Dan --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00004 Date: 11/22/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:30pm \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: FAILING UP TO 14% LP> The last parental phone call I made (Tuesday am) was spent listening LP> to LP> a father literally ranting about how I've made a BIG mistake, NO LP> teacher LP> should EVER fail a student & that ALL teachers are LAZY. Sounds like the phone calls my physics teacher got from parents who couldn't understand "why can't you teach my son G----- algebra"! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00005 Date: 11/22/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:35pm \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Privacy law LP> >> CB> Are you allowed to put student's work in your resume' LP> LP> >> I see _major_ legal problems in doing that! LP> LP> FERPA is mostly concerned with the release of sensitive records such LP> as LP> transcripts; it does not forbid the public admiring Johnny's 3rd LP> Grade LP> rendition of a house, nor does it mean that Johnny's name can't be LP> mentioned in public. That's fine, as long as Johnny's parents don't contend that the document released is indicative of Johnny's ability or possible mental problems...and I wouldn't bet my house on some parent claiming that Johnny's essay, attached to my resume in any form with Johnny's name, could expose Johnny to implicit "defamation" in the sense that it would hint at Johnny's mentality! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DFS00006 Date: 11/22/96 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 09:59pm \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Uniforms CB> Here, the parents have to vote for or against them. MS> I'm talking about _individual_ parental choice, MS> not a choice by 51% of parents that affects the MS> other 49%. Here, in my son's district, it is 75% that have to vote for it. In the schools that currently have uniform policy--it isn't manditory. Parents found out that clothing was much less expensive than the "in style" clothing. So a majority wear uniforms at these schools. --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105)