--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00004 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:44am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Research -> The following information is gleaned from _Qualitative_ _Research_ -> _For_ _Education_ which is a Master's level text used at the -> University Of Portland in Oregon (and elsewhere). The authors are -> Robert Bagdan and Sari Knopp Biklen. Badgan has a Masters Degree in -> Education and a Ph.D in Sociology from Syracuse University. He also -> holds a dual -> professorship in Special Education and Sociology at Syracuse. He has -> authored other books on qualitative research and written for many -> professional publications. -> -> Biklen has her Ed.D in Education from the University of Massachusetts -> at Amherst. She teaches qualitative research workshops for graduate -> students and is director of the Education Design Group, a -> not-for-profit research and consulting firm. In addition to having -> done research for the Fleischmann Commission, she has also taught at -> Syracuse University. She too has written a book on qualitative -> research. -> -> If what these two educators have to say about qualitative research -> and it's use in education doesn't cause you to sit up and take -> notice, then I, a mere kindergarten teacher of 8 years with very -> little first hand research experience (especially of the type you -> describe....my research training was mostly qualitative) then this -> thread may as well end right here. Nothing *I* say to you will -> matter if don't acknowledge -> qualitative research approaches as valid. Ed.D in Education? Masters Degree in Education and Ph.D. in Sociology? Such credentials do not convince me that they really understand that mathematics of statistics. Programs that give degrees such as the ones you cite above do require some training in statistical methods, but it is not that substantial. It would be more meaningful to many of us here if the methods used by these Ed. degree researchers were analyzed by some mathematicians or statisticians and proclaimed as valid research methods. Sheila King --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00005 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:00pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: SPELLING "RESEARCH" -> I don't want to dissect this study....the goal was to document -> "spelling knowledge." Of special interest was to determine if -> invented spelling was predictive of word recognition. It was a -> strong predictor. Be careful. From what you posted of the study, I didn't see how they determined that their was any cause-effect relationship established. Certainly they observed a high correlation between students who used invented spelling and then later had good word recognition. But how can it be ascertained from a purely observational study whether students, in the absence of a traditional spelling program, and who therefore resort to their only alternative, invented spelling, wouldn't have had good word recognition anyhow? Perhaps what is really happening here is that students with a propensity for good word recognition resort to invented spelling in the absence of any other spelling program. From an observational case study you have NO WAY of determining the cause and effect relationship here, which has been a point that Ron McDermott tried to make to you unsuccessfully some time back. All you can glean from an observational study is that there is a high correlation between the two, and that it bears further investigation in a more highly structured and controlled experiment. If you believe that what you posted here indicates that invented spelling PREDICTS word recognition, then you mislead yourself. Sheila King --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00006 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:04pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 3 times) Subj: DETERMINING FORMULA FOR D -> Well... Ok.... I still find it difficult to accept a proof -> of nonexistence; I guess I'd have to see the basis for the -> proof (and understand it ). It has been "proven" that -> no physical object can attain, let alone, exceed the speed -> of light, but many of us hold out hope for some undiscovered -> loophole...... ;-) Please remember that proofs in mathematics are different in nature than "proofs" in science. It is indeed possible in math to prove non-existence. One of the things I will be working on with my calculus class next week is proving the non-existence of certain limits for particular functions. Mathematicians like proofs of non-existence, since they then know not to waste their time looking for something that doesn't exist! Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00007 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:08pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Fonix -> Thought this was rather funny and thought I'd share. -> -> Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC (now -> officially the European Union, or EU), the European Parliament has -> commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in -> communications between Government departments. You know, I saw this years ago when studying linguistics at the university back in the early 80's. Of course, it wasn't set in the context of the EEC storyline. Of course, it is quite funny. One of the things I always remember so well from my linguistics courses is the ever-popular "phonetic" spelling of the word "fish" as: ghoti where "gh" represents the "f" sound at the end of the word cough. "o" represent the short "i" sound as in the word "women" "ti" represents the "sh" sound as in the word "motion" I've trotted that example out in my math classes a few times when we somehow get off-topic. The students apparently really like that one. I had a kid who mentioned it to me one time in the hallway a couple of years AFTER he'd been in my class. He still remembered it. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00008 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:12pm \/To: RUTH LEBLANC (Read 3 times) Subj: WHERE WE STAND -> It seems that the latest grads get first crack at the jobs and for -> the rest it is a matter or who you know or where you are at the time. -> :( Unfortunately, I am neither a new grad of know enough of the right -> people or am in the right place at the right time. :( Ruth, Doesn't such a hiring practice (giving preference to the new grads) indicate to you that, contrary to what you wrote previously, it may be to your disadvantage to have such high qualifications? Sounds to me like they ARE practicing in your locale what others have suggested here: Saving money on teachers salaries by hiring those lower on the pay scale ladder! Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00009 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:15pm \/To: DONNA RANSDELL (Read 3 times) Subj: library - research -> Every week, my children are taken to the school library for a 25 -> minute "lesson". However, I'm not seeing any "lessons" taking place. -> I asked my girls, "how are books shelved in the library?" Answer: -> alphabetically. "What's the Dewey Decimal System?" No response. "How -> do you find books in the library on a certain subject?" Answer: Ask -> you, the library lady or my teacher. "What's a card catalog?" Hi Donna, After reading your message earlier this week, it aroused my curiousity about what IS going on in my child's school in this regard as well. As you know, my children also attend a California public school. I did know that my children were visiting the school library regularly (I wasn't sure if it was once a week, or once every other week). After questioning them I found out that: My fifth grade son does know what a card catalog is and how to use it to find books. Whether this is because it is part of the regular library instruction program, or because he asked to be shown, I am not sure. My third grade daughter has no idea what a card catalog is, or how to look up books. She relies on the "ask the librarian" method. Hope this helps. Sheila King --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00010 Date: 10/26/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 12:34pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Ed Research -> Do you check student notebooks? How so - on a daily basis, weekly, -> marking quarter? I check them at the quarter for certain courses, not for all the courses I teach. For instance, in AP Calculus, which is supposed to be a university/college level class, I do not check notebooks. These kids should already know how to take notes. However, I have re-instituted something this year in my AP Calculus and AP Comp Sci courses which I had done several years back, and that is this: In order to encourage them to keep a notebook in spite of the fact that I do not check or grade it, I give pop-quizzes on which open notes, but no textbook, are allowed. I imagine this would encourage the student to organize the notebook in the way that would be most useful to him/her. Also, if students in either of my AP courses come for help, I will usually ask them to flip to the pertinent section in their notes. If they have no notes, I will not help them. I tell them to go get the notes first, read them, read the book, and then come back to me for help. In my Honors Geometry course, which is about 1/3 freshman and 2/3 sophomores, I do check notebooks, at least at the beginning of the year. I will be checking them soon (in about two weeks) for the first quarter. Then I will be checking them again near the end of the first semester (some time in January). Whether I will continue to check them after that point remains to be seen. Last year I let it go after the first semester (I, too, hate checking the durn things. However, I see no point in complaining that kids don't know how to take notes if I don't in some way hold them accountable for it and teach it). I do think that some students devote a great deal of effort to keeping a notebook, and in a way it is a type of class participation, and such students appreciate being rewarded with a good grade for that effort, especially if they don't do as well on quizzes and tests. My notebook grade is worth a single quiz, so it's not much. I do find that the grading process is much swifter since I adopted a practice a several years back of using a grading rubrik. One of our English teachers showed me how she used a rubrik to grade essays, and got very little back-talk from her students regarding their grade, so I adapted the idea to notebooks, and it works well. I can grade a class set of about 30 notebooks in about 1 hour. Ok, maybe 1.5 hours... For my Intermediate Algebra class, however, (remedial second year algebra) I graded their notebooks last year EVERY quarter. I knew that if they ever got wind of the fact that I might not grade them, that note taking in class would cease. When I give notes and examples in class, I expect every student to take the examples and definitions down, and I pause to allow time for this. I find that roaming the aisles while they take the example down helps me to be more patient and wait, lets me see how much longer they need to copy the examples down, and encourages even the kids who sit in the back to take down the notes, since I am walking right past them, instead of thinking they can hide in the back and do whatever they want. -> I must be honest - I do so hate grading notebooks that I gave it up -> 20-years ago. I hate it too. There probably are years in my 13 year history when I didn't grade a one. I went back to it, though, because of the afore mentioned reasons. Also, it helps keep students on task during class if they are required to be taking notes. So it helps out in a lot of ways. Sheila King --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00011 Date: 10/20/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 08:51pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 In response to a message to Charles on <10/12/96>... DT>You say your a man of quantitative, scientific, verifiable, control DT>group research. I have read Nation at Risk. A rather massive volume, as I understand it. Written by an independent organization known as the Rand Corporation. DT>I have also read _The_ _Manufactured_ _Crisis_ by David Berliner DT>and Bruce Biddle. A number of people have recommended it to me, but I have not yet seen it in the local bookstores. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. DT>Interesting how when one looks closely at "results" from Nation DT>at Risk how interpretations can be altered to fit ones agenda. Any chance that Berliner and Biddle did some of the same? Usually statistics can be twisted around to suit almost any purpose. It takes a discriminating and unbiased reader to sort through the pros and cons. DT>I think you recently posted something from the AFT about voucher DT>or charter school results? I have not made up my mind on this DT>issue Charles. I am just a bit skeptical and have done some DT>investigating on my own. Have you gone beyond the Nation at Risk report? You lost me here, Dan. Did you make a couple of switches in issues you are referring to mid-papagraph? I'm not sure what you mean by "gone beyond the Nation at Risk." Since it was written in the mid-80's, I'd guess I have. DT>Have you examined the claims made in that report? Do you realize DT>there is little if any research evidence to support this report? No. DT>If there is, point me in the direction so I can DT>view it as well. Did the government conduct studies? If so, when, DT>where? I thought you read it? It was not produced by the government, so they wouldn't likely do any studies for the authors. The Rand Corporation has long supported public education, providing grants for research, scholarships for graduate work, etc. I suspect they'd do their own research - perhaps using some government statistics, where appropriate. DT>Interesting that you should mention the NAEP scores. The SAT scores DT>give us very little information (The SAT is a one shot, multiple-choice DT>test that is taken by high school seniors. The test assesses only DT>student's knowledge of a fixed set of topics in mathematics and English, DT>against the performance of standards of a group of _high_ _status,_ DT>mostly male, mostly Northeastern students who wanted to enter highly DT>selective colleges in 1941. (Manufactured Crisis p. 22) I didn't cite the decline in SAT scores as evidence that students in Japan score better on tests of educational excellence since the SAT isn't administered internationally. I, too, recognize the problem with a changing population of test-takers and the failure of the test designers to take social factors into account when analyzing data over the past 50 years. DT>But, the NAEP is a better source of data about academic DT>achievement. I am familiar with the tests - they have been administered in our building. DT>In general, the NAEP tests have shown very little change over the past DT>two decades. Okay, I've no argument there. The tests that are administered internationally are the IAEP exams and they show that American students score below students of 13 other industrialized nations. DT>Following the release of the 1991 NAEP scores, former Secretary of DT>Education Lamar Alexandar said that "today's children seem to know about DT>as much science and read about as well as their parents did at that age DT>about 20 years ago"; Interesting. If he says so, it is probably true. (BTW, William Bennett was the Secretary of Education who made the big splash about the report when it was released.) Part of the problem, as I understand it, is that most other nations have improved their delivery of education during that 20-year period and the U.S. has not. We used to score better on international exams and now we score lower. If Xerox were still producing copiers the same way today that they produced them 20-years ago, do you think they'd still be in business? DT>There's more where that came from. It is well-documented so should be DT>easily verified. My question is why would people accept the Nation at DT>Risk data at face value? Probably because there is quite a bit of evidence that American schools can do more to educate America's children. My argument isn't now, nor has it been, that American schools are going backwards in their ability to educate kids. My point is that schools have taken on the larger task of educating *all* children (in the 50's, half of the kids dropped out of school by the time they were 16) and we have made little progress in reaching that goal. We still educate at about the same level as we did in the 1950's and other nations have surged ahead of us. Nothing you've said refutes my point. DT>But I am made to wonder just how much of the Nation at Risk report was DT>politically motivated? Pretty difficult to assess that, I guess. I'm not sure if the Rand Corporation has any political leaning, either left or right. Maybe someone else here knows. DT>Schools can always strive to do better. But that fact doesn't mean they DT>are doing poorly. I guess that depends on your standards. DT>Read the book and then let's discuss its implications. They had a novel DT>approach in writing the book. They examined the evidence. Interesting, Dan. When it comes to whole language you argue that qualatative research is great - it proves your point. Here you seem to be arguing that such evidence is not good enough. Can't have it both ways. Chuck Beams cbeams@dreamscape.com http://www.dreamscape.com/cbeams ___ * UniQWK #5290* Another good day; the computer is still working! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00012 Date: 10/25/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 08:41am \/To: EVERETT HOUCK (Read 2 times) Subj: Where We Stand In response to a message to Charles on <10/09/96>... EH>I read your post on higher academic standards, but what about higher EH>standards for teachers. Here in Oklahoma you only have to EH>have a degree and pass a test which is about on a fifth or EH>sixth grade level. The are all too many colleges where you EH>can earn a degree just by paying for it. The standards of a EH>lot of colleges are lower also. This has resulted in EH>teachers who are teaching subjects in elementary school in EH>which they are not qualified. I have seen teachers EH>misprouncing words such as oblique, telling students that EH>caterpillars are insects because they have six legs, and EH>stating that the red in a thermometer is red mercury. They EH>teach Math by using a set method and reading it out of a EH>book. There is some degree of incompetence in every field - every year there are doctors being sued for malpractice, there are building contractors sued for failure to build homes or buildings that are not in compliance with standard building practices, and plumbers who walk away from a job where the faucet still leaks. You will never eliminate the element of human imperfection from any field of endeavor. I would only be impressed with your comments if you were able to demonstrate that the degree of incompetence was significantly higher in the teaching profession than in other professions. EH>There needs to be higher standards for teachers and EH>students alike and unions need to quit blocking the removal EH>of teachers who do not meet those standards. What standards? Yours? Godliness? Are you prepared to pay higher salaries to attract better teacher candidates than we get now, or do you want to reduce salaries and still get better quality? How do you intend to do it? Do you really think that administrators are only hiring the worst teacher candidates and that there are thousands of qualified teachers waiting in the wings to take these jobs when the incompetent teachers are fired? When an administrator has a job to fill, one assumes he hires the best candidate he/she can get and those that aren't hired are worse candidates. The administrator has to fill the job - has to have a teacher in that classroom - so what are they to do when the best candidate isn't good enough but there's nobody any better to hire? There are millions of teachers in this country - some are not going to be the best. I don't know about any state other than New York, but here there is a means for districts to remove incompetent teachers. The tenure hearing in NY is well defined and charges were brought up against 310 teachers in the past two years. Of those cases, 26 teachers were found guilty, 79 chose an alternative process (provided for by law) to the hearing, 82 cases were settled before the actual hearing, 115 are still pending, 3 teachers resigned immediately and 5 cases were consolidated with other charges. This, of course, does not include teachers such as the several in our district who were encouraged to retire last year, and another who quit without a fight, in exchange for a decent recommendation. Do you know the process for tenure dismissal in your state? Do you have any idea how many teachers have been brought up on charges and the resolution of those charges? More often than not, the problem with incompetent teachers is the incompetent administrators and school board members who allow those teachers to keep teaching. EH>For all their rhetoric, the AFT still represents teachers regardless of EH>their qualifications to teach. The AFT is worse than Bob EH>Dole, because even though he may be wrong he is standing up EH>for what he believe and not saying one thing and doing EH>another. Funny thing about the AFT - we tend to support the legal rights of our members. I can't see any injustice in that. The AFT affiliate in New York State worked hand in glove with the New York State School Board's Association just two years ago to redesign and streamline the hearing process for dismissal of tenured teachers. We know that bad teachers make all teachers look bad, but we still believe that the removal of tenure would not produce any better quality in the teaching ranks. In fact, there would most likely be mass firings of experienced teachers in favor of younger, cheaper and less able teachers. Good, experienced teachers would be forced to leave the field as they would be unable to maintain employment, get raises or promotions, and the massive turnovers in the field due to constant cost reduction moves would feed an entire army of inexperienced, barely capable teachers. I don't really think you have a very good grasp of the issue. You have bought into a shallow, poorly thought out attack on a profession that deserves better than the derision heaped on it by Bob Dole, and the polls indicate the public's displeasure with such thinking. Chuck Beams cbeams@dreamscape.com http://www.dreamscape.com/cbeams ___ * UniQWK #5290* And on the 8th day God said, "OK Murphy, you take over" --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEW00013 Date: 10/25/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 11:48pm \/To: ERICA LONG (Read 1 times) Subj: RE: SPELLING RM> Now... The approximated spelling "problem" which many here RM> refer to is NOT a natural development; it is the result of RM> a concerted effort, not to improve spelling, but to promote RM> early writing. EL> Ah but it is and THE point is that it lasts a very short time. As I said above, the "problem" many here cite is NOT the same thing as what you and Dan refer to; it is an outgrowth of an attempt to promote early writing, and an attempt to avoid decreasing self-esteeme. It is the continuation of, often in the absence of any attempt at correction, invented spelling. Dan picked up on what I meant here - This is NOT the temporary missteps of a starting speller, which is what you and Dan are discussing.... RM> The question, to me, is WHY are we pushing RM> for early writing? Are we seeing improved writing as a RM> result? Are we seeing greater literacy, reading levels, EL> Are you then going to stop every child who picks up a pencil EL> simply because they haven't been to school yet? Most early EL> writers are copying good role models (probably mum and dad EL> and older siblings) so they think they are writing too... Again, I'm not referring to kids who "pick up a pencil" and want to write; I'm referring to an entire class of students who are "encouraged" to write regardless of their ability to do so, or to spell properly, and who are not really corrected in their spelling... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * "I believe OS/2...to be the most important OS...of all time" - Bill Gates, 1987 --- PCBoard (R) v15.3 (OS/2) 2 * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302)