--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00019 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAL JENCSO Time: 01:21am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: Off topic - I noticed your talking with Dave Brodman in forsale. He lives in my general area. Thought you'd like to know that he's one of the best vendors I've dealt with. This is for your general education and thus, on the edge of topical..... * RM 1.31 3319 * --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GI * Origin: BBS Networks bbsnets.com 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00020 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAL JENCSO Time: 01:21am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 CB> Perhaps it is the wide age range I have taught. I still have CB> troubles with the way WL is being taught here, many of us CB> recognize that it is being blamed for something that is CB> really out of the control of teachers -poor training and poor CB> support economically. I'm not sure that you can excuse WL results with "poor training and poor support economically." I think this is an assumption that needs to be explored/documented. I can supply some anecdotal information. My wife is a first grade teacher at a "Roots and Wings" school. It is one the national demonstration schools funded by NASDAC. The "Roots" program is a copy of Slavin's Success for All program. It incorporates elements of a phonics program (poorly) with a WL approach. Our supervisors are whole language converts. The school is completed the reading program pilot last year, therefore the teachers are allowed to modify the program to fit their needs. The math program is being piloted by some teachers (not my wife) and the program is being taught "by the book" after training. There is a coordinator to help implement the program and secure materials, etc. My wife is NOT a WL fan by any stretch of the imagination. She has incorporated elements of what the county calls WL into her bag of trick, but is a taskmaster who pounds skills into little heads. She is typically given the kids with the lowest placement in reading. Her tone is firm and kind and her voice is always level. Her classroom houses an outdated IBM lab (our cost, my job to keep it going), a small stage with canopy, a reading bench, exercise cycle, hamsters, fish, chickens (at times), frogs, salamanders, etc. Parents fight to get their kids into her class. The fridge is plastered with the "I love you" notes. Two days ago my wife came home and said that the new county supervisor (BTW, one fallout of always being on the edge of reform is that supervisors appear and disappear with great speed) wandered into her classroom. The super stayed for an hour. Now they want to video my wife and make demonstration tapes to show others how it should be done. The request will be politely declined. They are trying to make sense of the results of the school data. Other teachers who support WL are doing the program to a "T". One, also a first grade teacher who has the higher reading group, does the reading program by the book. Her kids informed my wife's class that they were "reading" after the first day of school and showed a folded paper book from which they read. They are flying through the reading series and the kids with experience (from home) as well as those with talent and doing pretty well. Others, however, and starting to run into trouble. These kids can't sound out unfamiliar words. They all depend to a large degree on memorizing sight words. By the end of the year, my wife's group will be reading on at least the same level, if not higher than the other group (some kids who have the talent, but no experience soar in her reading group). However, the difference becomes more apparent when the kids have to actually read for meaning. The other classes are often "prepared" for the reading test- somehow the words used often become spelling words. When faced with unfamiliar word they cannot easily decode them. My long winded point is that teaching is not only an art, but that often we don't see the whole picture. Perhaps WL fails because people do exactly what they are trained/told to do with the materials provided. Climbing down off the soap box..... Glad the wind is diminishing on the Bay, I'll get busy on the water and stop my blast of hot air in here * RM 1.31 3319 * --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GI * Origin: BBS Networks bbsnets.com 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00021 Date: 10/05/96 From: FRANK TOPPING Time: 12:11pm \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Where We Stand You were commenting on the visit of 12 year old Iqbal Masih to an American classroom I believe: MS> Guilt-tripping a captive audience of students is a MS> totally inappropriate use of public schools and public MS> school students. What guilt tripping? Severe abuse of child labor is a _very_ serious problem. Little people who don't see the larger picture and are only concerned with amassing wealth - no mater the means - of course are not concerned; as you have evidenced they even get upset at raising concious awareness (educating) about any such situation. ...even a global current events topic that involves one of their peers! I can't think of a more exciting exchange for the children. MS> I can't think of this same public school having MS> provided a similar forum to an American 12-year-old MS> equally dedicated to his cause, particularly a MS> conservative cause. Would this school have allowed its MS> students to be used as a captive audience for a 12-year- MS> old Bircher wanting to get the U.S. out of the UN? Barbara Walters, on _20-20_ the other night, did a tremendous job of exposing the heart and sole of pilars of "conservative causes". Showing the nation the "Christmas Party" video tape that the leadership of the Republican Party produced out of the National HQ Office was absolutely *wonderful* !!! MS> If public schools are to keep the allegiance of the MS> public, they can't afford to be places promoting trendy MS> causes to a captive audience of guilt-tripped students. Teachers are not these small people, Matt. It's their responsibility to introduce their students to a broad variety of experiences and to encourage the children to develop critical thinking skills on these issues. ...not to indoctrinate but rather to teach them how to evaluate for themselves. I, personally, like you, wish it were otherwise. I'd like for them to explain the Republican platform on Family values they espouse and then show the "Christmas Party" tape to the kids studying government in later HS years. ...seriously. It'd be a wonderful expose' on how shallow the RP is. In case you missed it (an official publication) it was gross to say the least. ...every class of minorities was debased -- as were working people in general. Constantly portraying themselves as "the boss" in employment situations they had such scenes as a female set of shoes "toes down and wiggling wildly" protruding from beneath a desk modesty panel as "the boss" was going into "climax" in the executive chair in the usual position behind the desk. ..."getting head" obviously. Female employees were repeatedly attacked this way, as were Jewish contributors to the party (the "cash stereotype" yaknow) and every other minority they could fit in. Family values? ....where??? ...what it showed is that they will espouse anything to forward their cause of greed -- milk it to death -- and then turn around and "eat their young". Pretty good, Matt. Long tape and she showed *plenty*. :) :) :) Your Party, huh. I'm sure glad that the majority of teachers across the nation aren't among these little people. ...rather proud of 'em as a matter of fact. Y'all have a nice day, now. ...might ponder where the RP picked up the label of "conservative" while you're at it. That was gutter trash, plain and simple. Of course, a young, white, female lawyer tried to explain it all away. Now I get it. I just figured out the connection; why you're in the Republican Party. ...a total lack of principles seems to be the common factor between the two groups - Lawyers and Republicans. ...a lot of the higher ideals of gracious people are going to shoot right over your head. ...speaking of head -- you'd do good to get a copy of that tape if you or your dad has the horsepower. ...if it's not too much like simply looking at silvered glass. ...run it a few times -- or a few dozen. Ponder what kind of people would produce that kind of stuff. I don't think anyone in this conference would produce that kind of material. ...looks like we've selected America's teachers from the best cut of people and you're just part of the group that's unwilling to realize their true value and compensate them for their worth. Enjoy the debates this weekend. After he left his wife cold -- and especially after the Baba WaWa tape expose' -- I'll sure bet that "gifted Bob" doesn't bring up "family values" and "character" at all. Y'all shot yourselves right in the foot -- *big time*. ...thought you were "slicker" than that. ...Just remember: We're feeling your pain. :) :) :) -frank:) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Sacramento Peace Child! Sacramento CA (916)451-0282 (1:203/451) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00022 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 10:14am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 CARL BOGARDUS spoke of The Real Story 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 10-03-96 CB>Perhaps it is the wide age range I have taught. I still have troubles CB>with the way WL is being taught here, many of us recognize that it CB>is being blamed for something that is really out of the control of CB>teachers -poor training and poor support economically. Yet there are so many other factors that contribute to a child's quality education (or lack there of). Home involvement has a great deal to do with a child's success in school. Children who are read to at home, children who are "taught" values at home, children who come from homes that show an obvious value toward education and our schools stand a better chance and are usually the brighter kids. Children who come from dysfunctional homes are usually a bit dysfunctional themselves (and many time they are extremely dysfunctional). I have seen many many examples of this myself. Typically (must be over 90% just a guess) my brightest kids have all come from very stable home environments. And looking back at all the dysfunctional kids I have ever had, with some exceptions, those who were the most dysfunctional in school came from homes that were equally dysfunctional. Another factor is nutrition. I have kindergarten children who come to my classroom every day without having had breakfast. They complain about being hungry. I asked one 5 year old why he didn't eat breakfast. He told me that he got up late and didn't get ready on time. When his 4th grade brother came to pick him up that day I mentioned I was planning to call "mom" about breakfast. The 4th grader said "Don't call my mom, I'll get in trouble." I asked why he would get in trouble for his brother not eating breakfast. The 4th grader told me it was his responsibility to get his 5 year old brother up in the morning, get him dressed, and feed him breakfast, and get him to the bus on time. When I asked what "mom" was doing he told me she was "zzzzzzzzz." No wonder the schools have a breakfast program. This kid now eats at school everyday. Can't feed their brains until we feed their stomachs. CB> CB>As a little question, do you consider reading a skill? Is this a trick question? There are many skills required for a child (and adult) to be a successful reader. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p I'm not tense, just terribly alert! * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00023 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 11:07am \/To: RICK PEDLEY (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Whole Language 2 RICK PEDLEY spoke of Re: whole language 2 to ERICA LONG on 10-03-96 RP>-=> Quoting Erica Long to Charles Beams <=- RP> RP> EL> Isn't a dictionary the best spelling book? RP> RP>But you'd have to know it was "phoneme" and not "foneme" to find it RP>in the phirst place :) But to answer your question, no, _spelling_ RP>books are the best spelling books. I can still remember the red RP>spelling book I learned from in grades 1 and 2, 20 new words memor- RP>ized each week. The teacher would dictate the list every Friday and RP>then mark them. Worked for me, and to varying degrees most others RP>in the class. Those raised on phonics who still can't spell today RP>likely wouldn't have done better with any other method. The research on spelling instruction is in more agreement than in any other area of the curriculum. This research does _not_ support what you have stated and in fact, states just the opposite. The research is there but publishers haven't followed the research because if they did, they would have no reason to publish a book merely for spelling. To the publishers it is not a case of what's best for education, they are in a business to make money. Studies have shown that the average child knows how to spell 75 percent of the words at his or her grade level before they are to be studied (using the published workbooks). Why should a child waste time studying words they already know? All too often spelling just becomes busy work. Studies conducted in the early 1980's clearly demonstrated spelling deficiencies in students from nine-year-olds to 17-year-olds. Traditional spelling programs believe that we can teach generalizations to children that will enable them to spell words they haven't memorized for spelling. Neither research with children nor research on the nature of the English language supports this generalization theory. In 1966 a study was conducted by Hanna (and others) regarding the relationship between symbol and sound in English. They programmed a computer with more than 300 rules. They then tested the computer's ability to spell 17,000 English words and found the computer could spell with 84 percent accuracy. However upon closer inspection of this study, it was found that certain "manipulations" were made in order to achieve that 84 percent. The *schwa* sound, which is the most frequent vowel sound in English accounting for 25 percent of all vowel occurrences in running speech, is spelled about 22 different ways! It was discovered that the programmers asked the computer not to spell whole words, but to spell phoneme by phoneme. So for "mat" it was asked to spell /m/ /a/ /t/. When the 17,000 words were fed into the computer to spell the words whole, the computer was able to spell with only a 49 percent accuracy. I could go on here but I won't. Those that insist that the traditional method of spelling instruction is the most effective haven't looked at the data. I have said this before, it is probably better to toss those books away and teach spelling in ways that children *really* learn best. There are many references I could offer here but this one may be the best: Horn, Ernest, "Spelling," in Chester W. Harris (ed.) *Encyclopedia* *of* *Educational* *Research.* New York: The Macmillan Company, 1960, pp. 1337-54. A thorough summary of research on spelling, with its implications for instruction. Dan ****************************** * * * ,~~~~.___. spelin * * / | . \ maid * * ( ) 0 e-z * * \ /-, ,----' * * ==== // * * / \-'-; /---(0) * * / __ /-| / | * * =( ______| (_______ _| * * * ****************************** --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00024 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 12:39pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 2 times) Subj: Spelling... BOB MOYLAN spoke of Spelling... to DAN TRIPLETT on 10-05-96 BM>Dan Triplett On (02 Oct 96) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan BM> Okay. BM> Since this thread started you have provide a LOT of additional BM> information on what you do in your classroom. What you say you are BM> doing is not what I have seen. You have said, or implied, that BM> creative spelling leads to acquisition of spelling skills and that BM> you'd rather not stifle the child's creativity when making these BM> exploratory attempts. (ok so far?) Not exactly....I don't know that I implied that children "learn" spelling skills by being "creative" in their early spelling attempts. What I have said (or tried to say) is that approximated spellings are natural and a likely occurance in early childhood programs that have many writing experiences for children. I have stated that children do pass through these spelling stages and that they do learn correct spelling as they mature as writers. It has been suggested by research that approximated spellers do develop into accomplished spellers. The second part about creativity is correct. BM> DT> At least I didn't get the connection you were trying to BM> DT> make. BM> I don't see that there is a connection between creative spelling and BM> teaching spelling. The connection seems obvious to me..:) I don't agree that simply exposing a child to BM> something means that they are going to learn anything about it. I agree with this...I have stated that expecting children to learn by osmosis is not a WL concept. BM> I don't think you can convince me that no matter how "language rich" BM> a classroom is that any child is going to pick it up just because BM>it's there - yes I know this not the way you say WL is supposed to BM>work and isn't what you do. You are correct. It takes more than a "language rich" or "print rich" classroom environment to ensure success in language learning. However, these are two _Very_ _Important_ elements in WL. If instruction is left out, some children will learn anyway, but instruction is also very important here. I approach instruction very differently than one might think. I teach in the context of what we are doing at the moment. Phonics is not isolated but is taught using the child's language (thereby making it more meaningful). Studies have shown that children pick up alphabetic concepts when whole words are present (meaning is present) rather than isolating letters (abstract and meaningless to many children). BM> I've heard kindergarten BM>teachers brag about one or two kids they have that are really taking BM>off and just flying through everything. Much like you did in one of BM> your posts. I think that is just great but what about the others BM>who aren't getting it, who may be just as confused in June as they BM>were in September? The ones who are taking off and flying are the brightest ones and they are ahead of every one. It is the bell curve. Most of the kids are at grade level expectations. Those on the bottom are there because they, even with the added help I provide, are just a bit behind developmentally and no amount of instruction will teach a child a concept that he/she is not developmentally ready to comprehend. These kids need more work (expose and practice). Chuck has said it best...kids are sent to BM>school to learn. All the high sounding educational theory in the BM>world isn't worth a hill of beans if it isn't applied in such a way BM>that all kids learn. Agreed....so why would you insist of teaching in ways that are found to be inferior? I once had an undergrad prof (with over 30 BM>years experience in public school classrooms) present to us what she BM>called the "potato theory" of education. It goes something like BM>this...you can send a potato to school and "expose" it to all manner BM>of things bright and beautiful. Exposure isn't going to change that BM>potato, it's still going to be just what it started out as - a BM>potato. You can send a child to school and expose it to all manner BM>of things bright and beautiful but if you are not actively teaching BM>that child it might just as well be the potato. Cute -- but children aren't potatoes and unlike potatoes children _do_ learn from exposure to ideas and things, and they _do_ pick up concepts in the context of learning activities, and they _do_ change and grow simply because it is the nature of our brain to make sense of our world. I think it is the teacher's job to be a facilitator of learning. I must continually assess where each child is at, and provide learning experiences that *engage* the learner. If a child, like your potato, is just sitting and doing nothing (not engaged) then of course they won't learn much. I don't simply put a ABC chart on the wall and expect children to learn the ABC's as a result. We are "alphabet rich" in the classroom and I provide many many learning opportunities for every child. The idea that WL just puts ideas out there and we just cross our fingers hoping the kids will get it.....silly. BM> DT> I thought Chuck was saying ... until they have some grasp of the BM> DT> fundamentals. He likened it to learning a sport ... although BM> DT> the analogy is interesting, it doesn't fit here. At least it BM> DT> doesn't fit for me. BM> Chuck speaks from a middle school perspective, I speak from a BM> parent and teacher's perspective. I understood his analogy and BM> thought it fit quite well. Drill and practice isn't very BM>fashionable any more but it worked way back when and it still works BM>now. Research argues with you both..... BM> Children need to be made to understand that their only reason for BM> being in school is to learn, not to be "socialized" You don't think socialization skill require learning? Are you suggesting that children are only in school for learning academic concepts such as reading, writing, math, and science? Ahhhhhhh or have their BM>egos stroked or learn how to "feel good about themselves". This I agree with you on although I do believe that children need to know they are valued. Respect is very important and should be expected from student to teacher and teacher to student. Yes I am the adult and they must treat me with the respect due me. But they are worthy of respecting as well. Discipline comes before instruction. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p ... If you just have to have the last word, make it Good-Bye! * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: R-Squared BBS (1:352/28.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00025 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 12:49pm \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: busy-ness LEONA PAYNE spoke of busy-ness to ALL on 10-04-96 LP>Hello, LP>I haven't been very active here lately (altho' I have been keeping up LP>with most of what's been happening in the echo.) LP>For what it's worth in regard to the invented spelling issue...I seem LP>to remember being told in some university pedagogy class that it LP>takes an average of only two to three repetitions to learn something, LP>but it takes an average of 27-30 reps to UNlearn something LP>incorrectly learned. LP>As a student, I was never corrected on certain words & STILL have LP>problems remembering how to spell responsi/responsability. I KNOW LP>it's responsi, but I WANT to spell it responsa, because that's the LP>way I **always** did it & I never got it marked wrong. Oh, well. Great Leona...but approximated spellings are not learned spellings and do NOT have to be unlearned. Most people misunderstand this point and many seem to ignore it altogether. Dan... CMPQwk 1.42 445p ... According to my best recollection, I don't remember * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: R-Squared BBS (1:352/28.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00026 Date: 10/05/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 04:46pm \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Spelling... DAN TRIPLETT spoke of Spelling... to BOB MOYLAN on 10-05-96 It has been suggested by DT>research that approximated spellers do develop into accomplished DT>spellers. Clarification on the above: Research doesn't merely suggest this but rather shows it to be true. Research has also shown that students who were allowed to approximate their spelling became more accomplished as spellers than students who were taught spelling using the more traditional method (which I have already said doesn't work). :) CMPQwk 1.42 445p ... If you just have to have the last word, make it Good-Bye! * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: R-Squared BBS (1:352/28.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00027 Date: 10/05/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 09:14pm \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: busy-ness LP> Monday, a newschannel came to my classroom & 7th Period & I were on LP> Phoenix TV news at 6 pm. The channel was covering a story about the LP> state mandated foreign language requirement for elementary schools LP> (districts here are trying to get it rescinded because they [lying LP> scum] LP> claim that it costs $300,000 to implement a program & that they can't LP> find qualified teachers. Districts here are finding it hard to staff foreign-language positions, too...and they're not demanding a similar requirement be rescinded. I think there is a genuine problem hiring people who are certified in foreign languages. LP> Tuesday, I spent researching WHY there aren't enough qualified LP> teachers LP> (the universities encourage language majors to get secondary ed LP> degrees LP> rather than elementary ed degrees Many might not _want_ to teach little kids, anyhow...or might lack the patience needed to endlessly spend one's days teaching third-graders "adios"! LP> Today, the two girls showed up, 13 & 14 years old. They are from LP> Togo. LP> They speak no English whatsoever, only French. They were really LP> nervous LP> & practically every African-American student in the school was trying LP> to LP> meet them, as well as a goodly number of the other ethnic groups. LP> This LP> was difficult because of the no English thing. These poor girls have LP> only been in the States for a week. We had to explain what pizza, LP> hamburgers, corn dogs & the salad bar are for their lunch choices LP> because they hadn't ever before experienced those foods. They'll learn fast. Food is probably the first thing someone wants to know how to get (like that prof who teaches French fluency in 3 weeks by taking college students to rural Quebec). LP> Now to my point. Are there any educators out there, most especially LP> Canadian ones, who can help me obtain materials/curricula for LP> teaching LP> English to French speaking students? A friend in Toronto tells me that Quebec is very anti-English as a matter of nationalistic pride, so don't be surprised if there aren't any! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00028 Date: 10/05/96 From: CARL BOGARDUS Time: 07:53pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 1 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 DT> Good question. One I don't have an answer for. I have heard from DT> middle-school teachers that 60% of the kids DT> entering 6th grade are not DT> reading at grade level. When I asked what they Our whole school is Title One reading. That means a significant portion of the students fall below the 25 percentile in their reading scores. When I taught Fifth, it was not unusual to have a reading spread from 1st to 12+, we did a lot of oral reading, outlining, vocabulary, etc. to work on their skills. Trouble is, these are not dumb kids, they would never qualify for special ed and there are no medical problems. DT> but Im sure there are many who do read below grade level. I am also DT> sure there are many who read at grade level or DT> above. What has made the DT> difference? I think home may be a factor. DT> I wonder if another factor is that (some schools? DT> many??) don't operate DT> with exit outcomes in mind. Isn't a good question "What should an DT> exiting (grade level) look like.?" "What are the DT> necessary skill levels DT> for an incoming (grade level) in math, science, reading, writing, DT> speaking, listening?? DT> Perhaps there is a greater need for connections from grade level to DT> grade level? (As in top-down design of goals and objectives) DT> What are districts doing to address some of the apparent skill DT> deficiencies they are seeing in some students? DT> Does this problem exist DT> everywhere? Is is exaggerated? What are the DT> _accurate_ statistics that DT> could help define the problem? I think you have hit pretty close to an answer. Home life for the vast majority of our students is not very good. Most are below poverty level and their situations are pretty desperate. Unemployment runs 12% or higher in this area and it is pretty constant. Many parents lack language skills and the knowledge that would help their children succeed. Our district has not had a curriculum that was workable for years. We are currently having a curriculum alignment project where each level, elementary, mid, and HS is meeting to decide what they want for their students at the exit level. Then everyone will meet together to align the three and make one unified curriculum. There has already been some fireworks within each group, so the final alignment should be interesting. I think the problem is wide-spread among lower income areas, but not among middle to upper income areas. Schools are strapped for money to spend on training and curriculum work and it shows. I think another BIG factor is lack of expectations among all parties involved. I have heard many comments about our students that are quite negative from both parents and teachers. Carl --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: VETLink #13 Las Cruces NM (505)523-2811 (1:305/105)