--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00009 Date: 09/29/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 02:36pm \/To: DAL JENCSO (Read 2 times) Subj: Whole Language 1 1/ Responding to a message by Dal, to Charles on <09/22/96>... DJ>Charles, how about a address or phone number for AFT. I've DJ>wanted to sign up for quite some time. Thanks. American Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO 555 New Jersey Ave., N.W. Washington, D.C. 20001-2079 Ph: 202 879 4430 Although I'm not sure about your ability to join - normally one joins by affiliating a local labor organization. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00010 Date: 10/06/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 04:09pm \/To: LISA MCINTOSH (Read 2 times) Subj: Ann Landers letter Responding to a message by Lisa, to Charles on <09/15/96>... LM>LM>From my own experience I can tell you that the person had this a LM>LM>little messed up. What is actually the case is that if a teacher LM>LM>feels that a child might need treatment for a disability (be it ADD LM>LM>or LD or whatever) then the school is responsible for the TESTING for LM>LM>diagnosis, not the treatment itself. ^^^^^^^ LM> ^^^^^^^ LM>CB> This might well be a state law local to Alabama. I'm not aware of LM>CB>our schools paying for the medical diagnosis of our students. LM> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LM> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ LM>I didn't say that the school was responsible for paying for the LM>"medical diagnosis". Only a doctor can make a medical diagnosis. A LM>doctor must base this diagnosis on something though, and the TESTS LM>that a school sytem's psychomotrist administers is what the doctor LM>uses to make the diagnosis. We do not use psychomotrists in our district, though our school psychologists are able to do some testing. Apparently I read your post a little too quickly and assumed you were talking about testing at some level beyond what is done in the schools. I think the phrase "testing for diagnosis", in particular, left me confused. I discussed this with our school psychologist and she indicated that the school's responsibility is guided in large part by the district's committee on the handicapped. It was her opinion that, if a parent requested testing, the matter would be brought to the committee by an administrator or guidance counselor. If the committee felt that testing was warranted, then testing would be arranged through the building psychologist or an outside lab (depending on whether or not we had the tools/experience to do the testing in-house). It was our psychologist's understanding that the committee had the right to deny district responsibility for testing if the facts did not warrant the expense. LM>The whole fiasco referenced above had a large part in our decision to LM>school our children at home. In this setting he does not require LM>medication. There can be no more complete an education than one done well at home. Were it only that we all had the time to do one-on-one instruction. The parent must be the child's advocate and with schools designed for cost-effectiveness rather than protection of the individual, parents must be involved with their children's education if they want the best for them. Unfortunately, just as there are good public school teachers and there are bad, there are also parents who do a good job of home schooling and some who don't do so well. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* A child is a curly, dimpled lunatic (RW Emerson). --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00011 Date: 10/06/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 04:41pm \/To: ALL (Read 2 times) Subj: Where We Stand Reposted withh permission of the American Federation of Teachers http://www.aft.org Where We Stand by Albert Shanker The Real Solution Anyone who tuned in to the Republican convention heard Bob Dole (and others) say that teacher unions are the big obstacle to improving the public schools. No one talked about the need for higher academic standards, a stronger curriculum, better textbooks--or about getting students to work harder. Just get rid of the unions and the education problem will be solved. A few days before Bob Dole's acceptance speech, the American Federation of Teachers released a report that gives a much more useful picture of what's wrong with the schools and what can be done to improve them. Making Standards Matter 1996 is the second annual AFT review of academic standards in the 50 states. What did we find? The overwhelming majority of states believe that school reform must begin with higher academic standards. However, many of the standards that states have proposed are not clear and specific enough; and, for the most part, there are no consequences for failing to meet the standards. First, the good news. Forty-eight states and the District of Columbia are committed to setting statewide academic standards (only Iowa and Wyoming do not plan to do so). This is encouraging, especially given congressional opposition to the Clinton administration's standards program, Goals 2000. Congress may not be committed to raising academic standards, but the rest of the country is. Yet while most states are working to develop higher academic standards, only 15 have standards in the core subjects--English, math, history, and science--that could form the basis for a rigorous curriculum. The reason is that many of the standards are vague and general and lacking in content. Take this middle-school math standard from Nebraska: "Students should be able to discover and develop formulas." Which formulas? The standard does not say. A social studies standard from Massachusetts suffers from a similar fuzziness: "Students will explain how a variety of factors can lead to the outcome of an event." Unless they make clear which mathematical formulas students should master and which events in history students should learn about, standards will be useless. They won't offer teachers guidance about the material they need to cover or tell parents what they should expect their children to learn. Indeed, standards like these will offer little improvement over the system we now have. This will be a tragedy for all our students but particularly for those in inner-city schools because they are the ones who stand to benefit most from a challenging curriculum. In his new book, _The Schools We Need_ (Doubleday, 1996), E.D. Hirsch, Jr., says that giving all children a chance to study the same high-quality curriculum is a "civil rights" issue, and I think he is absolutely correct. It's not enough to make sure that youngsters have a seat in a public school; they should be guaranteed access to a curriculum that is rich in substance and gives them the knowledge they will need to participate and prosper in American society. Most students today, particularly those in poor neighborhoods, don't study such a curriculum. Strong, content-based standards are their best hope. There's another reason state standards need to be clearer and more content-specific. Americans are the most mobile people on earth. This means, according to one study, that one out of every five students switches schools each year; and the rates are much higher in the inner-city. When youngsters change schools, they also change curriculums. Teachers try hard to bring new students up to speed, but this takes time away from the other students, and some youngsters never catch up. Teachers ought to know, at the beginning of each year, that wherever their students have come from, they have studied the same material. Vague standards will not provide that consistency. Developing standards that are clear, specific and sufficiently grounded in academic content is hard work. It means making tough decisions about what is essential--and what has to be left out. It is far easier, in the name of teacher flexibility or local control, to duck these decisions. But taking the path of least resistance is not doing children or teachers any favors. The states are off to a promising start. The majority have developed good standards in at least one subject, and some have exemplary standards that others can look to as models. But states need to do more than raise standards; they must also be encouraged to attach stakes to these standards. Students need to know that the hard work they put in will count--both in school, for promotion and graduation, and when they look for a job or apply for entrance to a college. Otherwise, the highest standards and the richest curriculum are unlikely to solve our problems. So far, fewer than half of the states have plans to make students accountable for meeting standards. The standards movement is making progress, but there is still much work to do. If Bob Dole were smart, he would stop blaming teachers for the problems in the schools, and join us in the fight to raise standards. (To order Making Standards Matter 1996, send $10 to AFT Order Dept., 555 New Jersey Ave., N.W., Washington, DC 20001, and ask for item 265.) Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* Any twit can understand computers, and many do. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00012 Date: 10/06/96 From: RICK PEDLEY Time: 07:59pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: whole language 2 -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Rick Pedley <=- RP> EL> Isn't a dictionary the best spelling book? RP> RP>But you'd have to know it was "phoneme" and not "foneme" to find it RP>in the phirst place :) But to answer your question, no, _spelling_ RP>books are the best spelling books. DT> The research on spelling instruction is in more agreement than in any DT> other area of the curriculum. This research does _not_ support what DT> you have stated and in fact, states just the opposite. I don't care about your research. I can see the results of educational methods used in the last 15 years in the _teachers_ now entering the work force. As a rule, _they_ can't spell worth a damn either. And now they're passing along their ignorance to another generation. The same thing has happened in math BTW: kids aren't being made to memorize multiplication tables to the degree they were twenty years ago, and it is a perfect analogy to the lack of spelling instruction and its consquences. Because they can't multiply 7 by 8 in their heads, they have trouble factoring x^2 + 15x + 56, in addition to the actual task at hand, learning to factor polynomials. I don't care about the research you quote because it is almost impossible to validate it. Show me _reproducable_ results from controlled experiments performed by unbiased researchers well- schooled in the "scientific method", and then you might have some- thing. The research you quote is based merely on statistics gleaned from pre-existing data, in pre-existing learning environments. Experi- ments need to be set up in a controlled environment for proper research to take place. Meanwhile, I'll trust the conclusions based on my own observations, which have served me well thus far. fRenz do'nt lit thuR frEnz yooZ hol lanWij DT> In 1966 a study was conducted by Hanna (and others) regarding the DT> relationship between symbol and sound in English. They programmed a DT> computer with more than 300 rules. They then tested the computer's DT> ability to spell 17,000 English words and found the computer could DT> spell with 84 percent accuracy. So what? We're not teaching computers, we're teaching human beings. More invalid research. The subject might as well have been a squirrel. DT> ****************************** DT> * * DT> * ,~~~~.___. spelin * DT> * / | . \ maid * DT> * ( ) 0 e-z * ^^^^^^ Yeah, that pretty much says it all. coffeerp@adan.kingston.net ] COFFEE MUG SOFTWARE ] ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 --- InterEcho 1.18 * Origin: CrossRoads * Kingston, Ont. * (613) 545-3745 (1:249/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00013 Date: 10/06/96 From: RICK PEDLEY Time: 07:59pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 1 times) Subj: Busy-ness -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Leona Payne <=- LP>As a student, I was never corrected on certain words & STILL have LP>problems remembering how to spell responsi/responsability. I KNOW LP>it's responsi, but I WANT to spell it responsa, because that's the LP>way I **always** did it & I never got it marked wrong. Oh, well. DT> Great Leona...but approximated spellings are not learned spellings and DT> do NOT have to be unlearned. Most people misunderstand this point and DT> many seem to ignore it altogether. And many see your claim as the bunk it really is. If a kid spells "cheese" as "cheez" every single time, he "knows" to spell it this way and therefore he has learned to spell it this way. At some point (but perhaps never), the correct spelling will have to be taught him, and then he'll have to unlearn the wrong spelling he has been permitted to use by teachers with lazy intellects. coffeerp@adan.kingston.net ] COFFEE MUG SOFTWARE ] ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 --- InterEcho 1.18 * Origin: CrossRoads * Kingston, Ont. * (613) 545-3745 (1:249/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00014 Date: 10/04/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:25pm \/To: RICK PEDLEY (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Quote w/o comment RP> But all that extra education may work against you, in that boards RP> will RP> shop around for less qualified teachers who'll do the same job for RP> less That's why some states, like this one, have so many "out-of-field" teachers who teach subjects they aren't certified in! To hire only those certified in the fields they'd teach would either require a bonus for hard-to-fill subjects or a major across-the-board raise to the pay required to get people to teach math, physical sciences, and computers. (It would also require many districts here to offer "supplements" like richer districts do to be competitive with them.) --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00015 Date: 10/03/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:49pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Where We Stand CB> CB> We Americans tend to expect very little of our CB> CB> children. We expect them to CB> CB> be spoiled and cynical. We allow them to be CB> CB> precocious in some ways and CB> CB> babies in others. Then we criticize them for being CB> CB> shallow and selfish. The CB> CB> students from Quincy should make us think again. CB> CB> They were not moved by CB> CB> Iqbal because he had the glamor of a rock singer CB> CB> The last section should hit every teacher and parent hard - we do not CB> expect as much from our youngsters as they are capable of doing. Don't you see the bad side of this feel-good story? Parents don't send their kids to public schools and pay taxes to have their kids be a captive audience for political purposes like being guilt-tripped about Third World poverty. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00016 Date: 10/03/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 11:54pm \/To: LISA MCINTOSH (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: SSI for ADHD LM> What I was referring to was the rash of people who asked for testing LM> when it became common knowledge that some ADHD children are eligible LM> for a SSI check. The "welfare reform" law just tightened SSI eligibility a lot. Expect to see a marked drop in abusive SSI applications, whether for children or for adults. Under the "welfare reform" law, aliens are now ineligible. That alone will cause about a 7% drop in SSI filings for alleged disability. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00017 Date: 10/04/96 From: LEONA PAYNE Time: 10:09pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: busy-ness Hello, I haven't been very active here lately (altho' I have been keeping up with most of what's been happening in the echo.) For what it's worth in regard to the invented spelling issue...I seem to remember being told in some university pedagogy class that it takes an average of only two to three repetitions to learn something, but it takes an average of 27-30 reps to UNlearn something incorrectly learned. As a student, I was never corrected on certain words & STILL have problems remembering how to spell responsi/responsability. I KNOW it's responsi, but I WANT to spell it responsa, because that's the way I **always** did it & I never got it marked wrong. Oh, well. As far as how I've been keeping busy the past week (which is all I can really remember well enough to relate,) Monday, a newschannel came to my classroom & 7th Period & I were on Phoenix TV news at 6 pm. The channel was covering a story about the state mandated foreign language requirement for elementary schools (districts here are trying to get it rescinded because they [lying scum] claim that it costs $300,000 to implement a program & that they can't find qualified teachers. Tuesday, I spent researching WHY there aren't enough qualified teachers (the universities encourage language majors to get secondary ed degrees rather than elementary ed degrees & those pursuing ed degrees would find that the course necessary to give them elementary foreign language certification isn't offered by the universities.) I also need to find out how much my district is spending because I'll bet a buck it ain't any $300,000. Wednesday, I found out that I was getting two new students from Africa who don't speak English & I spent Thursday trying to obtain information about their country as well as explaining to the Powers-That-Be in administration that, since 2 years ago the district decided Leona is not a bilingual educator (in spite of speaking three languages,) Leona would not be qualified to offer ESL services to these students, nor would she be translating anything unless the same arrangement extended to the Spanish translator would be available. The Powers didn't bite. Today, the two girls showed up, 13 & 14 years old. They are from Togo. They speak no English whatsoever, only French. They were really nervous & practically every African-American student in the school was trying to meet them, as well as a goodly number of the other ethnic groups. This was difficult because of the no English thing. These poor girls have only been in the States for a week. We had to explain what pizza, hamburgers, corn dogs & the salad bar are for their lunch choices because they hadn't ever before experienced those foods. I had a feeling they weren't really impressed with the pizza & hamburgers they chose. Now to my point. Are there any educators out there, most especially Canadian ones, who can help me obtain materials/curricula for teaching English to French speaking students? I will not be teaching them myself as I teach French as a foreign language, but our ESL & bilingual teachers do not speak French (or at least speak very little) & they will be starting at ground zero with these two babies. Help. Leona Payne ... Graduate of the Uncle Fester School of Etiquette. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. (602) 274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DEC00018 Date: 10/05/96 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 12:48am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 2 times) Subj: Spelling... Dan Triplett On (02 Oct 96) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan BM> appears that you and I, at least, will have to agree to disagree. DT> No....I don't think we can leave it at that. I don't think we simply DT> disagree....I think we just don't fully understand each other's point DT> of view. Okay. Since this thread started you have provide a LOT of additional information on what you do in your classroom. What you say you are doing is not what I have seen. You have said, or implied, that creative spelling leads to acquisition of spelling skills and that you'd rather not stifle the child's creativity when making these exploratory attempts. (ok so far?) DT> At least I didn't get the connection you were trying to DT> make. I don't see that there is a connection between creative spelling and teaching spelling. I don't agree that simply exposing a child to something means that they are going to learn anything about it. I am basing my opinion (and that's all it is really) on what I have seen taking place locally and what 1st and 2nd grade teachers locally are saying. I don't think you can convince me that no matter how "language rich" a classroom is that any child is going to pick it up just because it's there - yes I know this not the way you say WL is supposed to work and isn't what you do. In this school system's 52 elementary schools with 2 or 3 half-day classes of 20 - 23 kids each very little of what you describe takes place. Have I visited each of these 67 schools - no I haven't. What I did was read and re-read the K curriculum, discuss it with teachers and other parents. The only ones even half heartedly defending it were mostly K teachers. I've heard kindergarten teachers brag about one or two kids they have that are really taking off and just flying through everything. Much like you did in one of your posts. I think that is just great but what about the others who aren't getting it, who may be just as confused in June as they were in September? These are the kids the 1st grade teachers are most concerned about and the ones they have to work the hardest with to bring up to speed. Chuck has said it best...kids are sent to school to learn. All the high sounding educational theory in the world isn't worth a hill of beans if it isn't applied in such a way that all kids learn. I once had an undergrad prof (with over 30 years experience in public school classrooms) present to us what she called the "potato theory" of education. It goes something like this...you can send a potato to school and "expose" it to all manner of things bright and beautiful. Exposure isn't going to change that potato, it's still going to be just what it started out as - a potato. You can send a child to school and expose it to all manner of things bright and beautiful but if you are not actively teaching that child it might just as well be the potato. DT> I thought Chuck was saying ... until they have some grasp of the DT> fundamentals. He likened it to learning a sport ... although the DT> analogy is interesting, it doesn't fit here. At least it doesn't DT> fit for me. Chuck speaks from a middle school perspective, I speak from a parent and teacher's perspective. I understood his analogy and thought it fit quite well. Drill and practice isn't very fashionable any more but it worked way back when and it still works now. Children need to be made to understand that their only reason for being in school is to learn, not to be "socialized" or have their egos stroked or learn how to "feel good about themselves". They get all the socialization they need during the 17 - 18 hours a day they are not in school Mon - Fri (not to mention weekends, holidays and summer); let Mom and Dad do the ego stroking when needed. If the kid is learning and progressing in school they will feel "good" about it, if they are not then what can schools possibly be teaching them to feel good about?? I could easily get into a rant on THIS one. Bob ... He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5)