--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00001 Date: 09/10/96 From: ERICA LONG Time: 06:18pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Spelling Hi Charles, EL>Why can a six year old spell tyrannosaurus rex? EL>Because they want to. CB> It appears that your point is that young writers can spell correctly CB> when they want to spell correctly. Is that an indication that you Human nature factor here. If you want to do something you will. In a healthy language charged environment children will learn to read and write. Content words, nouns and verbs are easier to see than filler words. If you don't have a lot of experience of language are you going to know the first time you write which *to* to write. All mine can tell you there are three *tos* and they can tell you that the sore on your leg is different to the saw that cuts but a couple would still be unable to tell me t says te. CB> Or is it your point that since they CB> can spell correctly, we should demand it of them all the time? In year one, I expect my spelling group (about fifteen children) to get their Friday spelling test correct each week and I expect them to apply their skills in story writing but the others are not ready yet - some are nearly, some are no where near and one won't be ready even by the end of the year. Regards, Erica. ... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Maximus/2 3.01 * Origin: Soft-Tech, Qld, Australia +61-7-3869-2666 (3:640/201) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00002 Date: 09/09/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 11:33pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 1 times) Subj: THE GAME OF LIFE SK>If you're interested in the specific rules, let me know. I'll look SK>them up and post them here. RM> I think that would help me envision the task to a better RM> extent, thanks... SK>OK, here they are: SK>1. Every empty cell with three living neighbors wil come to life in the SK>next generation. SK>2. Any cell with one or zero neighbors wil die of loneliness, while any SK>cell with four or more neighbors will die from overcrowding. SK>3. Any cell with two or three neighbors will live into the next SK>generation. SK>4. All births and deaths occur simulatneously. SK>So, for example, imagine the grid we are playing on is 8x8 and a living SK>cell is denoted with X and an empty cell is denoted with 0. The starting SK>grid is given as follows: SK>X00X0X00 00000XX0 SK>0000XX0X 0XOXOX00 SK>X0X00X00 00X00XX0 SK>0XX0X000 Then the next generation 00X0X000 SK>00X00XXX would be this: 00X0XXXX SK>0X00X00X 00000X0X SK>00000000 00000000 SK>X00000X0 00000000 Ok... I wasn't getting this at first, I was making it recursive and therefore more complicated... The unspoken rule: "No cell can come to life if it has 4 neighbors", was escaping me... I figured it didn't matter how many neighbors it HAD, only how many there were when it came to life... For example, the 5th symbol in the first row is surrounded by 4 X's, but by the time it comes to life, it would be surrounded by only 3 X's (and therefore "legal")... The simultaneity of events refers to EACH symbol as they are processed one at a time, not ALL symbols processed at the same time.... SK>Hope this helps! I think so?! ;-) ___ * MR/2 2.26 * I went window shopping...and bought OS/2 WARP! --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00003 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:10pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 2 times) Subj: Whole Language 2 RON MCDERMOTT spoke of WHOLE LANGUAGE 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08-96 Conducting observations over time RM>DT>will yield a great deal of data and such an approach to research RM>DT>is both necessary and acceptable. RM>I feel compelled to jump in here... "Research" MUST follow RM>strict criteria to be acceptable. To suggest that someone RM>just "watch" and then draw conclusions is a poor way of RM>conducting "research". This is not to say that one cannot RM>come up with valid ASSUMPTIONS based on such a process; RM>only that these ASSUMPTIONS would have to be verified by RM>real RESEARCH in order to be validated. We get far too RM>much of the "Well, I watched how my classes ran, and how RM>my kids responded, so the way to do things is...." Or ... RM>"I read this great book about how kids would really achieve RM>if we just asked them nicely". What it amounts to is that RM>someone just "feels" that something will work because it RM>SEEMS right... As teachers, we're often on the receiving RM>end of such "research" from administrators who have RM>attended some conference somewhere, and we all know how RM>that usually comes out... RM> RM>DT>Your own observations of children are research to a degree RM>DT>in-and-of -themselves and through these observations you have RM>DT>learned a great deal about your area of teaching. RM> RM>You're misusing the term - What we have done is to OBSERVE; RM>what remains is to form an hypothesis, design an experiment, RM>set up controls, collect data, repeat process several times RM>with different student samples. Along the way we may have RM>to modify/improve the experimental process itself. Jumping RM>from observations which are unstructured, to conclusions, is RM>inadviseable... RM> RM>SK>However, in math instruction I'm fairly experienced, fairly RM>SK>opinionated, and have my ideas what works in the classroom and RM>SK>what doesn't. I don't think I am misusing anything. I am referring to qualitative research. Educational research is changing and is no longer dominated by measurement, operationalized definition, variables, and empirical fact. Qualitative research has a long history and is an approach that is gaining in popularity. It emphasizes inductive analysis, description, and the study of people's perceptions and has begun to play a more central role to educational research. Qualitative research techniques such as participant observations and indepth interviewing are respected and regularly employed in the social sciences, particularly in sociology and anthropology. It is slowly gaining acceptance in educational research. Slowly because education has a historical link with measurement and experimental design. Never- the-less, qualitative research is being used more and more frequently in education. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p Why isn't phonetically spelled that way? * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00004 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:16pm \/To: RUTH LEBLANC (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 RUTH LEBLANC spoke of The Real Story 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08-96 RL>Hi Dan, RL> RL>DT>I do like that grade level but there are times......I tried to RL> >switch last year to a 2nd grade but in the 8 years at my school, RL> >last year was the only year there was NO movement! RL> RL>Why did you choose 2nd grade? I think I would prefer 1st so I could RL>pick up where I left off the previous year. I'd love to do that - RL>especially once I implemented the Mathematics Their Way program. 2nd grade was the only place to move into. That was until that teacher decided to stick around for another year. So for the first time in 8 years there are no changes in our staff positions. I'm ok about it. I actually have a fun class of 27 and 23 kindergartners. I'm so tired though! :) RL> RL>DT>So for now I'm looking to improve on last year. I'm trying to go RL> >to more of a learning center approach and teach the students to be RL> >more self-directed in their learning. I think for now it will be RL> >the teacher directing the self-direction <:)> RL> RL>Exactly what do you do now that is different? Have you ever read RL>Bobbi Fisher's book Joyful Learning? Yes and I'm doing a re-read this year. In fact I began reading her book plus a few others. I have a friend who swears by RL>her philosophy, etc. She has her classroom set up into colour centres RL>with each colour standing for a different area. Each day she RL>introduces a different workjob for the children to do. The class RL>rotates around the centres during the week so that by the end of the RL>cycle they have worked in all the areas - that is the teacher RL>directed part. I do this....but it's difficult to teach the kids this routine. I have a saying outside my room that teaching kindergarten is like trying to hold a bathtub full of corks underwater all at once. She then has a period of time that they can have a RL>free choice of what they do and where they go at the centres - is RL>this more what you are after? I do all of this now but I want to design the room to run more efficiently and avoid so many (necessary?) transitions. RL>Does your district/board provide much direction in this area? I think RL>I have mentioned that I recently went to a workshop put on by my RL>Board on assessment and evaluation. I learned about rubrics and RL>portfolios and more about learning outcomes/reports. Like many districts, kindergarten doesn't get much attention so I'm pretty much on my own. Take care, Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p PROFESSOR: Someone who talks in somebody else's sleep. * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00005 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:21pm \/To: RUTH LEBLANC (Read 2 times) Subj: Math Their Way RUTH LEBLANC spoke of Math to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08-96 Ruth, There is a book and it's called Box it and Bag it. It is all math activities and there are illustrations and examples of how to make kits. It's a thick book just like the Math their way book. I'll write again and explain more. In the meantime, if you get ahold of the book let me know. Maybe we can share ideas. Dan RL>DT>I am still making my kits and it seems an endless task. I was RL>putting RL> >off much of the work with the hopes of a grade level change. RL>Now Im RL> >working to catch up on things.. RL> RL>So tell me more - what kind of things are you making? Is there a book RL>that goes with this course because I am sure I have heard of the RL>title? Are the activities just Math activities or for other areas as RL>well? RL>Looking forward to hearing more. RL> -Ruth- CMPQwk 1.42 445p ... Kids: They're not sleeping, they're recharging! * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00006 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:23pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Whole Language 2 SHEILA KING spoke of Re: Whole Language 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08-96 SK>-> One teacher I know has a sharing table where the children bring in SK>-> their sharing items and put them on the table for others to see. SK>-> The formula you present above seems like a great idea. I may give SK>-> it a try. SK> SK>Do keep in mind that it was for children who were in 2nd grade and SK>up. I'm not sure if something that "structured" will work in SK>kindergarten. SK> SK>Sheila Well Shelia, The kids are already bugging me about bringing stuff to "show." It's gonna be a long year! Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p Will Rogers never met Rush Limbaugh. * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00007 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:30pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 SHEILA KING spoke of The Real Story 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08-96 SK>-> CB>Don't you think that an electronic worksheet is still just a SK>-> CB>worksheet? I don't see the difference except that the SK>-> computer has CB>a little more color and sound. SK> SK>-> It's very different in my mind. It's interactive for one, it SK>-> offers a variety for two, it is entertaining for three, and it's SK>-> not boring for four, and it usually is a choice that is completely SK>-> left up to the child. SK> SK>While drill and practice on the computer _can_ be interactive, I've SK>seen very few such things that are very innovative in that respect. SK> SK>Basically, a worksheet is a worksheet is a worksheet, computer or no. I just don't agree and I think that if you visited my classroom and saw the programs I used you would see a big difference. I have seen some programs that have things like this: 34 23 +11 -- and the kids are supposed to add the digits and type in the answer. This is not the type of interactive computer (game) I am talking about. I have one for counting, learning abc's, first letter sounds, final consonant sounds, shapes, memory, typing, and the list goes on. The pictures are colorful and the programs are captivating. A work sheet isn't either. SK>It may be more interesting for your young students, since they may SK>have little experience with a computer. By the time a student gets to SK>their teen years, I bet there is little difference in the students SK>mind between them. This is probably true. I do know there are many good programs out there but I have not seen them. I would guess they exist though. To the degree that for upper grades they are nothing more than electronic work sheets I do not know, but I suppose you are right that to the older kids they represent little difference. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong... NOT! * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00008 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 07:48pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 2 times) Subj: Whole Language 2 1/3 SHEILA KING spoke of Whole Language 2 1/3 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-08- 96 SK>-> Like children who are engaged with language and learn to speak as SK>-> a result, children engaged with words can learn spelling SK>-> conventions more naturally. I am not speaking of osmosis but a SK>-> deliberate process of teaching spelling that is both meaningful SK>-> and natural to the child. SK> SK>I think, like the article I cross-posted from k12.chat.teacher SK>yesterday, that this is true for a great many students. Students who SK>already have internalized some of the phonetic rules of our language SK>would probably benefit to some extent from "inventive spelling". But SK>students who are still puzzled by the rules, who still are having SK>difficulty reading (possibly these are LD students?) would not get SK>far with inventive spelling? What do you think? I heard that for LD students more phonics is better. I think that was mentioned here by someone. I really haven't read anything about this. However I can only assume that children who engage in writing will spell using the phonetic knowledge they possess at the time. I would think that LD students can do this as well but I would have to defer to one more experienced in this area. SK> SK>-> Correct spelling, says Hillerich, should not be an academic topic SK>-> but belongs in the class of etiquette. SK> SK>That statement is a bit extreme for my taste. I think it is another SK>one of those "standards" that we let sink ever lower with each SK>succeeding generation. I think it still belongs as an academic SK>subject. I like what he says here... I would think that teaching spelling in the context of writing is appropriate. When I do free writing I do not worry about my spelling. However when I publish something that someone else would read I check my spelling. If I run into a word I am uncertain of the spelling I sometime look it up as I write but usually I just write knowing that when I edit (using my trusty spell checker) I will catch errors. I am sure you have noticed that some of my posts had errors here and there. Some words were mistyped (like hole instead of hold) and it passed spell check. I do try to "edit" and correct grammatical errors.....keeping a keen eye out for that misplaced modifier. I think this logically can fall into the area of etiquette. One of the arguments against making spelling an academic subject is that it becomes isolated and separate from the writing process. It needs to be taught in conjunction with writing. SK>-> He goes on to describe word lists and how to use them. It's an SK>-> interesting book and I don't think he is coming from a SK>-> whole-language perspective. He has word lists, pretest and test, SK>-> word studies, recording of spelling progress. I would think that SK>-> these are ideas we would all agree on. SK> SK>Yes, I'm surprised that you mention such an approach. It sounds very SK>traditional to me? Actually it is but not all traditional ideas are discarded by WL proponents. At least not this one. I am in favor of what is best for kids and I am trying to figure out just what that is. I believe I am on the right track with WL. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p Windows isn't CrippleWare -- it's "Functionally Challenged". * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00009 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 08:18pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 2 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 CHARLES BEAMS spoke of The Real Story 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-07-96 CB>Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <09/05/96>... CB>I guess we're actually arguing about the word "meaningful" here. You CB>probably are actually referring to providing "meaning" for the math CB>concept, and you are *NOT* actually implying that cutting a pie in CB>half is "meaningful" for the child, right? The illustration of is what I think could be meaningful. But it may be as you said, nothing more than something of interest. I would think that an overhead attribute block could illustrate part to whole as well. But when I say meaningful I am referring to providing meaning for the math concept. I think one way of doing that is to provide concrete examples for abstract concepts. CB>When we use a pie to illustrate the fraction 1/2, is that meaningful CB>to a child? I see it as something less important than that - CB>perhaps something of interest, but not meaningful. In order to make CB>something meaningful to a child, we would have to be teaching them CB>things that were significant in their lives - for example, how to CB>eat. How to remove and replace a brake lining would be meaningful CB>to an auto-mechanic, but it would NOT be meaningful to me. CB> CB>Is there actually a way to engage every learner by using the same CB>examples? That pie might bore a few of the kids quite quickly - and CB>how many pies are you going to cut up as you show halves, thirds, CB>quarters, fifths, sixths, etc.? A ruler is a practical example of CB>using fractions, but is it meaningful to kids? I've seen very few CB>that like measurement. I don't think using the same example over and over again is a good idea. I agree with you that that could be boring. Maybe it could be said that the use of work sheets over and over again could be boring for the same reason? CB>DT>.DT>If I want to teach spelling I can provide a list of spelling CB>DT>.DT>words, test, study, and then retest. I was taught in college CB>DT>.DT>that this is the best way to teach spelling. But children CB>DT>.DT>who score well on spelling tests don't always spell correctly CB>DT>.DT>on written work. CB>DT>CB>Are you sure that they don't at least spell *better* than those CB>DT>CB>who do poorly? CB>DT>They may, but the point is that this approach, which seems to CB>DT>teach spelling, falls short. What is the goal of these spelling CB>DT>tests if not to teach children how to spell correctly for their CB>DT>written work. CB>Yes, the point is to teach children to spell correctly for their CB>written work, but that doesn't mean you're going to get perfection. CB>I don't know if the research exists, but I would still like to know CB>if those children who study spelling in a formal manner don't spell CB>more words correctly in their written work than do children who CB>*don't* get formal spelling lessons. And another question - is CB>there a difference in the reading skills between the two groups? Those are good questions. I'll see what I can dig up. I think there is probably some research out there that has something to say on the matter. Are you familiar with the Riggs corporation? I have seen their name on the internet in connection with spelling and phonics. CB>DT>Here is where we part company. If a child can do the work sheet, CB>DT>then they know the skill. Doing the work sheet is a waste of CB>DT>time. This child needs enrichment and not from a work sheet. CB> CB>You're right - we do part company here. There is nothing wrong with CB>practice and reinforcement. A skill learned today might well be CB>forgotten three days hence without additional practice (short and CB>long term memories function differently). In your class, when a CB>child recognizes the letter A, are you suggesting that you never ask CB>him to do it again because he knows it? I would reinforce concepts (and I do) without the use of a work sheet. Same result (maybe better) better method (IMNSHO). CB>DT>The child who cannot do the task shouldn't do the work sheet CB>DT>either because it is beyond their level of comprehension. CB> CB>Let me get this straight. Just above you say that a child doing some CB>work they already know how to do is a waste of time. Now you're CB>saying that asking a child to do some work they don't know how to do CB>is a waste of time. Yes.....that is what I am saying...except I am not saying that the child shouldn't learn the concept. Only that a child will not learn the concept from a work sheet. Why bother then? The only thing I can figure here is that you CB>have a single-minded idea of what a work-sheet is and you are CB>holding on to that notion with a bulldog's determination. CB>In my mind, work-sheets (sheets of paper with work on them) are not CB>inherently bad. Agreed... Some are badly written, but others provide drill and CB>practice that reinforces skills for long-term memory development, CB>others provide the path to learning development (guiding a child CB>through a library project, for example), and still others may CB>challenge a child to seek out information (getting help from a CB>parent or adult). I think I have said I favor many of these... At the middle school level, I give homework most CB>every night (quite often in the form of a worksheet) and it serves CB>child lots of purposes - it tests the on his recall of the work done CB>child that day in class, it may push the into looking in his notes CB>or his textbook to review a process he learned and has forgotten, or CB>it might just help the child remember the information/process for a CB>little bit longer as we build on that same skill the next day. CB> CB>The process I use was tried and tested long before I became a teacher CB>and my best guess is that it will last long after I'm retired. CB> CB>DT>But I am speaking of this specific kind of work sheet and am not CB>DT>saying ALL work sheets. Just ALL work worksheets of this type. CB> CB>All work sheets of *which* type? You do not distinguish, but I'm not CB>sure I'm going to agree with you anyway. I thought I had distinguished in an earlier post. I don't think we could fully agree on this topic because I teach the little ones and you teach older students. My perspective is somewhat limited by my experience. I know many teachers today CB>try to avoid the overkill, once popular, of giving the kids a steady CB>diet of "seat work" work-sheets, but I see no difference between CB>that and assigning a dozen pages out of a book to attack or three CB>"pages" of computer work. And I suppose that in many ways you are probably right. Perhaps a balance is appropriate. I can avoid work sheets altogether in my grade level. There is nothing that I need to teach a kindergarten child that I cannot teach them without using work sheets. The upper grades may be a different matter. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p Silly wabbit.....QWKs are for QWKidds. * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DDF00010 Date: 09/10/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 08:23pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Whole Language 2 CHARLES BEAMS spoke of Re: Whole Language 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 09-07-96 CB>Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <09/04/96>... CB> CB>DT>Yes...and some writers still use the term. I think "transitional" CB>DT>is more accurate and is the term used in a recent workshop I CB>DT>attended. Transitional suggests a temporary situation which is CB>DT>what invented spelling really is -- temporary. The teacher CB>DT>doesn't leave the learning up to osmosis either. Spelling, like CB>DT>other aspects of writing, is a very important part of the editing CB>DT>process. CB>Okay, color me dumb, but how can the kids edit their spelling when CB>they're not taught how to spell? It's the teachable moment. A child can be taught to use the dictionary. Frequently misspelled words can be corrected using a child's individual word card bank. If I had a 2nd grade classroom and we were in the editing stage, I would make a major effort to teach children look up questionable words. I would read their written work and note errors. There is a suggested procedure to follow but I'm not sure of the exact steps. I'm the chief editor, I correct the work drawing attention to errors (like spelling, punctuation, capital letters). Then the work goes back for final copy. Seems like a good idea. I can also keep track of misspellings and work with individual students who show they need more help. Dan CMPQwk 1.42 445p ... "Nice landing...next time, put the wheels down first." * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256)