--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500007 Date: 08/31/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 01:02pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: Whole Language 1 1/ Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <08/28/96>... DT>Dan, DT> DT>Your information is "roughly" correct. I teach in San Jose, California. DT>California does have the largest class sizes in the nation, I believe, DT>or close to it. Read, and noted. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* Your family's Coat-of-Arms ties in the back - is that normal? --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500008 Date: 08/31/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 01:10pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Whole Language 2 Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <08/27/96>... DT>I thought I posted the "true definition" a while ago. Ooops. I've pushed too hard, haven't I? I read what you posted and 5 or 6 messages back we agreed that there were many interpretations of the process. DT>There is no such thing as inventive spelling, not really. You're arguing a point I didn't make - I believe the term was coined by Ken Goodman - but if not, then by some other whole language theorist. DT>CB>And I haven't read a single article about whole language that DT>CB>suggests that better literature can't be a sound improvement on old DT>CB>teaching styles. DT> DT>You lead a sheltered life..... My wife says you are right. Some teachers in her school would like to see a return to Dick and Jane. I had no idea. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* A penny saved is ridiculous. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500009 Date: 09/01/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 09:31pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 4 times) Subj: Teaching Logic Responding to a message by Sheila, to Charles on <08/26/96>... SK>It does seem to make more sense to introduce symbolic logic earlier, SK>rather than later. I find it interesting that Kathleen Weaver felt she SK>never really understood it until she worked with "breadboards". An SK>interesting idea to use manipulatives to teach this concept. I've not heard of the "breadboards" before, but we do have a math teacher in our building who did study logic with electronic circuit boards a number of years ago, and he swears by the process. Problem is, like anything else, it takes a lot of time away from other topics and it seems more appropriate for an elective course (or so he says). SK>Did your daughter find it to be helpful? Did _she_ see the parallels? My daughter's worst subject in school was math (despite my spending hours with her every week - we did great on the assignments, but poorly on the tests ), so she's not a good example. Some of the other students who've come back to visit seem to like the parallels, but that's a very subjective analysis on my part. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* America is a mistake, a giant mistake! (Sigmund Freud) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500010 Date: 09/01/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 09:34pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <08/28/96>... DT>CB>The fact that there are also many who *do* teach those skills DT>CB>does not deny that there are many who don't. DT> DT>I must admit that I am beginning to see this picture as well. Thank you. That is what I am trying to get at. Whole language is a process that is not well defined and, when it includes the complete rejection of word-attack skills as a teaching strategy, it costs many children the chance to become good readers. Perhaps some of the confusion comes from the founders of the whole language process themselves... "The term "whole language" was coined by Dr. Kenneth Goodman of the University of Arizona in the early 1980's. Whole language developed into much more than just a reading program. It is an educational philosophy in its own right, like OBE. It attempts to cover the whole gamut of language learning, including reading, writing and speaking. Much of the philosophy is derived from that used in developmentally appropriate practices teaching. Parts of whole language have been shown to be of value, but the methods used for actually learning to read are a major point of debate. Goodman believed that learning written language occurs naturally, in the same way we acquire spoken language. He thought children could learn to read primarily by figuring out the meaning of words from an analysis of the context in which they occurred. Good readers don't read word by word, Goodman argued, "[t]hey construct meaning from the [entire] text. Indeed, accuracy is not an essential goal of reading" In the above paragraph, taken from a previously posted article, "What Is Whole Language?", it seems clear that Goodman's main focus is not on phonics instruction. DT>I think that work sheets tend to isolate specific skills and provide an DT>artificial experience. I think that you are using a very narrow definition of "work sheets," but even if I were to agree with you, the notion that teaching a subject by breaking complex processes down into specific skills, then assembling those skills into the whole (convergent thinking) is a legitimate instructional technique. Certainly, not all children learn best that way, but many do. I see nothing artificial about this process. DT>Children learn better through experiences that are meaningful. Don't we all . But if we only taught children what is meaningful to them at any given time and not what we know, as older and wiser adults, to be skills that they will need later in life, we might as well adopt the Illich plan of abandoning formal schooling and let everyone fend for him/herself. DT>If I want to teach spelling I can provide a list of spelling words, DT>test, study, and then retest. I was taught in college that this is the DT>best way to teach spelling. But children who score well on spelling DT>tests don't always spell correctly on written work. Are you sure that they don't at least spell *better* than those who do orly? DT>However if I want to teach the long or shout vowel sounds, consonant DT>digraphs. We could read a story such as *Where* *The* *Wild* DT>*Things* *Are* by Marice Sendack and use it for phonics and word DT>studies. This sort of activity is far more meaningful and lasting DT>than a spelling test. (I equate this with a work sheet) You say this as if they were exclusionary practices. Why can't you do both? We did when I was in school. Maybe there's some value in each. Again, a good subject for some research. DT>Children who don't understand this concept yet will draw lines from a DT>letter to a picture with no understanding of what they are doing. They DT>have learned nothing. Is there a teacher in the classroom? For those who did the matching and understood it, they had a skill reinforced (and certainly one does not want to over do the practice of skills the children have already mastered). For those who *didn't* understand the process, then it's time for the teacher to sit one-on-one with the child to do some further instruction. Thanks for your posting. I didn't ask for a clarification just so I could rip apart everything you had to say - certainly if we have teachers who teach children to read without any word attack skills, there were previously some who badly overused the drill and work sheet approach. My position is simply that there is nothing wrong with the occasional work sheet, whether it's on a sheet of paper or on a computer, for practice, reinforcement and evaluation. To deny this as a tool is to limit your instructional options and reduce your effectiveness. DT>ok...Im done now... I don't think so. ;-) When I logged in to grab this mail, it looked like you had several more messages in the packet to me. ___ * UniQWK #5290* 'twit *.*' typed the moderator, smiling... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500011 Date: 09/01/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 09:40pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: Whole Language 1 1/ Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <08/29/96>... DT>Action Reading is a program that one can purchase for use in the home. DT>It is marketed on TV's ubiquitous commercials. They are a phonics based DT>program and they are in the business of selling a product (which they DT>believe in) and making some money. I would hardly consider them a DT>reliable source for information regarding Whole Language. I've not seen their ads. Perhaps this is a regional program? But, two follow-ups: 1)Only a small part of what I quoted came from them, and only the extent to which it supported other information I posted, 2) the fact that an organization has a stake in the issue makes what they say suspect, but does not make it incorrect. John Saxxon produces a math textbook series for schools and has, nearly single-handedly, taken on the NCTM and their new standards. Although he has a very strong stake in the dispute, more and more schools are adopting his traditional drill-and-kill programs, as the results are remarkable. DT>The American Federation of Teacher, which is on record of opposing WL, DT>is a smaller? teacher's union. I don't believe that the NEA holds to DT>the same positions regarding WL. Why would one be so impressed with DT>what they have to say (The AFT)? This is a topic which I could spout off on for hours. I use a lot of AFT information because I am a member and a local president within that organization. But you are right - they are a smaller organization than the NEA, only about 600,000 members. Does that disqualify them? About 10 years ago, in the face of reports such as "A Nation at Risk" that criticized American schools for falling behind the schools of other nations, the AFT formed the first educational research department of any significance, outside of the department of education. The research arm of the organization has been collecting, recording and evaluating educational research for quite some time now, and every other year they sponsor a Quest conference for members to instruct them in the newest techniques supported by research. The NEA has just this year changed its focus and opened its own research center for education, so they are a bit behind but should be up to speed very soon. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but the AFT and the NEA have been holding serious merger talks - wouldn't be a surprise if the merger occured within a year or two. But that's beside the point. If you're unaware or unimpressed with the prestige of the research branch of the AFT, nothing I can say will change your mind. DT>Marvel away....you need to get away from the idea that WL is a process. DT>It is not and never has been. Semantics. Any group of lessons taught utilizing the "philosophy" automatically assigns a process to it. DT>You must have more faith in the opinions of a relatively obscure DT>teacher's union than you do in what whole-language theorists have to say DT>on the matter. What makes their claims more credible then the WL DT>theorists themselves? Cheap shot at the AFT, which I'll ignore. As for the claims of the theorists, read back a message or two to see what I quoted about Goodman. DT>According to whom?? Kenneth Goodman's research studied the process of DT>reading from a psycholinguistic perspective. I understand, and also previously posted the following... "Whole language's emphasis on context was also undermined when the "Journal of Educational Psychology" published a study challenging the oft-cited 1965 experiment conducted by Ken Goodman. In the original experiment, he had found that children made 60 to 80 percent more errors when reading words out of context than when reading them in context. However, those who repeated the experiment determined that Goodman had failed to distinguish properly between good and poor readers. It was only the younger and poorer readers who made significantly more errors reading words out of context. Good readers were able to read words well whether in or out of context. Goodman had used only poor readers in his experiment and had no control group." The AFT research department did not claim there wasn't any research to support whole language, they said that there wasn't any research that was well constructed. DT>He was interested in the relationship between thought and language DT>(psyche and linguistics) as it applies to reading. He described DT>reading not as a letter by letter, word by word decoding process, but DT>rather a "psycholinguistic guessing game (Goodman 1982 p33) whereby DT>the reader uses graphophonic, syntatic, and semantic clues DT>simultaneously to construct meaning from print. I agree that is what he stated and have quoted passages stating much the me. DT>Other educators and psycholinguists conducted their own studies of the DT>reading process, and these not only verified but expanded on Goodman's DT>initial research (Clay, 1972; Ferreiro, 1986; Y. Goodman, 1986; Harste, DT>Woodward, & Burke, 1984; Taylor, 1983) Ah, you've got me there. I've no idea what these refer to nor any way to get to a library where I might find them. I'll make a bit of an effort to track these through our school library, though we start school next week with no librarian. Our librarian retired in June and the first one they hired has quit already. ___ * UniQWK #5290* Do people rap on your head and say "Hello? Anybody home?" --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500012 Date: 09/02/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 12:35pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: Whole Language 3 Responding to a message by Dan, to Charles on <08/29/96>... DT>It not my purpose here to "convert" anyone to WL but to challenge what I DT>consider misconceptions regarding the theory. I would be interest in DT>learning more of Great Britain's WL woes. About a year ago, an article on whole language appeared in Teacher Magazine. I saved it out someplace, but can no longer find it. It used a lot of data from Great Britain, which is abandoning whole language after a ten-year national experiment. As with California, reading scores in GB declined consistently throughout the experiment and the national curriculum now requires heavy doses of phonics. (I'll keep looking for the article.) DT>I do not think WL is a fad and believe it is here to stay. I understand that. DT>As for the evidence against it mounting, time will tell. Yep - can't argue with that. DT>I do believe that we discussed the relative confidence we can place DT>in any research that attempts to isolate a single factor as a cause DT>of this or that. At least Ron and I did. DT>In California's case, WL is merely an excuse for a poorly run educational DT>system complicated by the diversity of its student population and DT>unmanageable class size. Possibly. But that's an awfully large cross-section of America to assume that everyone is incompetent, but the process is terrific. DT>I would like to add that I think it is healthy to have one's view DT>challenged and that you (as well as others) have challenged mine DT>regarding WL. I do not operate in blind faith here and am investigating DT>some of the criticisms you presented a bit further. I am in now way an DT>expert (as in know-it-all) but I do try to honestly communicate all-I- DT>know (or all-I-understand). I am not an expert either - only a perennial cynic. DT>We can drop the WL thing, continue, or pick a specific WL concept (such DT>as --inventive spelling--) which I think is very misunderstood as well. DT>Even Rush Limbaugh has lambasted the practice. I ask you, is he an DT>expert on spelling pedagogy? I'm listening and responding. Wherever the topics in this echo go, I usually follow. Rush Limbaugh is an even worse cynic than I - he hates everything both liberal and conservative and he appeals to the very worst attributes of human nature. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* A big lie is more plausible than truth. (E. Hemingway) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500013 Date: 09/02/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 12:43pm \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Where We Stand Reposted with permission of the American Federation of Teachers http://www.aft.org Where We Stand by Albert Shanker Knotted Rugs The murder of Iqbal Masih, a year ago this week, forced many Americans to look at a problem they would have preferred to avoid: child labor in developing countries. Iqbal was a world-famous human rights activist. He was also a young Pakistani boy whose mother had sold him to a rug maker when he was four. Iqbal eventually freed himself, and by the time he was murdered, at the age of twelve, he had helped free 3,000 other bonded child laborers. That is probably why he was murdered. But many millions of children in Pakistan, India, and other developing nations continue to work as gemstone polishers, glass blowers, and makers of matches, fireworks, clothing and hand-knotted rugs, often in conditions that are unspeakable. Children who knot rugs are crowded into filthy, poorly lit shops that have minimal ventilation for as many as 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. They are often chained to their looms, and they risk being beaten or even killed if^ they try to escape. Many die anyway because of the horrible conditions under which they work. Manufacturers consider young children to be desirable "employees" because they work hard and put up with pay and conditions that adults would not tolerate. The children receive no more than a couple of cents a day for their work; many get nothing. A number of developing nations--India and Nepal, for example--have laws on the books banning child labor. Nevertheless, you hear some people using hard-nosed economic arguments to justify exploitation of children. They say that if child labor is what it takes to bolster the economy in a developing country, that's the price the country has to pay. And it's really nobody else's business anyway. But many of these countries also have very high unemployment among adults. Why shouldnt companies hire adults so that parents can support their children instead of having to sell them into bondage? However, we don't have to wait for the companies making hand-knotted rugs to get religion (or for countries that are dragging their feet to start enforcing their child labor laws). These rugs are an important export item, and people who buy them can have a big say about the conditions under which they are made. The traditional weapon used by people who want to protest economic injustice is the boycott: Don't buy the product. But a boycott only punishes, and it often punishes those who act responsibly as well as those who don't. An Indian child advocate named Kailash Satyarthi had a better idea. He established a nonprofit foundation that allows consumers to identify and buy hand-knotted rugs that are not made with child labor. Rugmark, as the foundation is called, inspects companies that apply for certification and vouches for the fact that they are not using child labor to make their hand-knotted rugs. Inspectors also pay surprise visits to Rugmark-certified companies to make sure they continue to abide by their commitment to use adult labor only. Consumers can recognize Rugmark rugs by a label that only they will carry (see below). Rugmark, which is now two years old, has signed up and certified 15 percent of the companies producing hand-knotted rugs in India. A number of others are moving toward certification, but the process is complicated and many carpet makers are understandably hostile to the idea of losing a cheap, excellent, and plentiful supply of labor. So far, the total production of Rugmark rugs has gone to Germany, where the country's largest mail order firm and several large department stores have agreed to carry them. But Rugmark has recently opened up shop in Nepal, with the support of 70 percent of the carpet manufacturers there. These rugs will soon be available for import to the U.S. It's up to American consumers to start talking to stores and catalog companies that carry hand-knotted rugs. They should let the businesses know that they do not want rugs made by children, and they should urge them to put pressure on the importers they deal with. This coming week, the first Rugmark-certified rugs imported to the U.S. will be auctioned off at a ceremony commemorating the anniversary of Iqbal Masih's death last year. If American consumers do their part, these rugs should be the first of many. For more information about the Rugmark campaign and the availability of Rugmark-certified rugs, contact the Child Labor Coalition c/o the National Consumers League, 1701 K St., N.W., Washington, DC 20006; tel. 202-835-3323. Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* And on the 8th day God said, "OK Murphy, you take over" --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500014 Date: 09/02/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 12:45pm \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Morals From _The New York Teacher_, March 4, 1996 "What's Wrong with this Picture!" "Consider two trends from a survey of 3,351 high -achieving high-school students nationwide. According to a Who's Who Among American High School Students, the students think the "decline of moral and social values" is the greatest crisis confronting the nation, and the number one problem facing teen-agers. Meanwhile, 76 percent of the students admitted cheating on homework, and 39 percent said they had cheated on a test. Nearly 9 out of 10 said cheating was common, few students are caught cheating, and only 5% are punished." Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* Old MacDonald had a computer with an EIA I/O... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500015 Date: 09/03/96 From: PENNY NEROMILIOTIS Time: 04:29pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: Science in the Curriculum Hi Carl, thanks for your reply which I believe I will find really helpful. In 4 weeks I will be a fully qualified Primary Education teacher so when I have my own classroom I definatly will take your advice and approach local businesses about donating material and providing instructors. There's nothing more useful for a teacher then an extra set of hands and extra knowledge in the classroom. Your suggestions on extension ideas were great also. THANKS! Your right about girls and Science Education but unfortunatly here , it is an issue. It was only today that I got to see the new Gender Equity kit for Science, sad isn't it? Once again, thenks heaps! Regards Penny. PS. Where are you writing from? --- FMail 0.94 * Origin: Sydney Education BBS - Sydney University (3:712/628) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DD500016 Date: 09/03/96 From: MARK FOSTER Time: 08:03am \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 3 times) Subj: LOGO HK> This message was crossposted here from K12_Tech_Ed by Sheila King: