--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00005 Date: 08/25/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 08:58am \/To: RICK PEDLEY (Read 3 times) Subj: The Real Story 2 RICK PEDLEY spoke of The real story 2 to DAN TRIPLETT on 08-21-96 RP> DT> Remembering that it is young children we are trying to teach RP> DT> these skills to is important. Some of our language structure, RP> DT> especially the irregular spelling of some words, is very RP> DT> confusing. RP>But 26 letters and 42 phonemes should be a snap compared with what RP>most Chinese kids have to learn! Even all the exceptions to the rules RP>in English could be easily memorized, and _were_ when I was a kid. RP>The whole system has gone wimpy. I don't understand how what Chinese children have to learn is a reasonable argument regarding anything concerning American education. I think you may be referring to the number of Chinese symbols that need to be learned vrs the few in America. The comparison you offer cannot be regarded as proof for your argument that American children *should* be able to learn to read in a snap. Chinese writing is vastly different than English. I'm not sure an adequate comparison can be made. What Chinese children have to learn has no relationship on what or how American children learn nor how difficult (or easy) that learning may be. I cannot comment on the state of Chinese education or the difficulty of the written language since I don't have any data. I do know they have a 30% illiteracy rate (approximately). You say that reading is simply a matter of memorizing phonics and then one can read. Not true. You say that when you were a kid that children memorized in a *snap* all the sounds, all the blends, all the exceptions, and that since then (since you went to school) the system has detoriated (gone wimpy) to a point where children are not being taught to read. Again not true. I am also inferring that you suggest that this lack of learning to read is not a soceital issue; it is merely an educational one. Teachers aren't doing their job -- the system is failing. I don't agree. I think that we have clearly seen how the system of the past has failed many students. I do not know your age but it would be interesting to dig up the data on the reading difficulties of your day. I think you would be surprised to find out that there were many children who had a great deal of difficulty learning to read. Learning to read is not simply a matter of memorizing phonics. A study recently (sorry I don't know more details) where children who were taught phonics were tested on their reading ability. Many could not read because they lacked the skill to blend the sounds together. They knew the sounds individually but could not produce the words associated with those sounds. There are many components to successful reading (phonemic awareness, sounds, vocabulary, general language development in the individual, exposure to print, left to right movement, blending, sight words, [others may add to this list]). It is not, and never has been a "snap" and the history of American education and the teaching of reading would show a completely different story. It is important to consider the societal changes that are influencing education today. I don't want to consider all of them in this post, but I think it is important to recognize that what goes on in our homes, neighborhoods, state and country greatly effects what goes on in our schools. Perhaps the most important factors that assist (or detract from) education in this country are the home and what goes on there, and technology and how it influences our attitudes toward learning. I will write more about this next time if you need additional information to help you see that for _many_ children learning to do anything, including and perhaps especially reading, is anything but a *snap.* CMPQwk 1.42 445p Clinton -- The Carter of the 90's * ++++++ * _ /| ACK! \'o.O' / =(__)+ U --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00006 Date: 08/25/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 07:55pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Alaskan CB> This is great! Of course those of us in our little town are trying to CB> figure out why there are so many Alaskan vehicles here throughout the CB> year. CB> More than our fair share . I think that the rural to suburb schools CB> are CB> better than those of larger population areas. Somehow I think that is CB> true CB> in all rural states in the west. Or here in North Carolina, where the rural schools tend to have far less discipline problems. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00007 Date: 08/25/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 07:57pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: For your info... BM> In Colorado, a Jefferson County School Superintendent has removed a BM> highly-praised video from the curriculum, after a student complained. BM> "The Miracle of Life" was pulled by Superintendent Wayne Carle, BM> following the objection by a student who insisted that a section of BM> the video presented evolution as a fact -- something which, he BM> insists, contradicts his religious beliefs. In this state, districts that have been open with parents in advance of adopting any particular sex-ed curriculum materials typically have few controversies, but ones that keep parents in the dark have endless hostility. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00008 Date: 08/25/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 08:01pm \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Vouchers BM> Voucher aid to private religious schools violates the constitutional BM> separation of church and state, a Wisconsin state court has held. BM> In an Aug. 15 ruling, Dane County Circuit Judge Paul Higginbotham BM> rejected BM> a BM> request to begin a voucher program approved by the legislature that BM> would BM> pay BM> for tuition at religious schools. "This is a tremendous victory for BM> church-state BM> separation and public schools," said Barry Lynn, executive director BM> of BM> Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "This means BM> Wisconsin BM> taxpayers will not be forced to pay for religious instruction." Likely _real_ outcome: the working-class parents who were grateful that the vouchers had given them the opportunity for their kids to go to better schools (that they otherwise couldn't afford) will no longer support tax referendums or higher public school spending, so that they will have as much of their own money as possible to afford parochial school. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00009 Date: 08/25/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 01:09pm \/To: ERICA LONG (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Whole Lang. 2 -> SK> Arrgh! Accuracy is not an essential goal of reading? I would -> think -> No! (Qualified Statement) Do real readers read for accuracy or -> comprehension? Even five year olds who are almost readers go past -> that stilted word by word style and when they begin to fly they don't -> stop to correct a substitution ie a the for an a. I've thought a lot about this message of yours since I read it over a week ago. I think that there are several issues here, and it's not so simple to say "yes, we read for accuracy" or "no, we don't read for accuracy". I do understand what you're saying about a "five year old...when they begin to fly..." I've seen that occur in my own daughter. She cannot read as fast orally as she can silently (she is seven, soon eight, going into third grade). When she does her oral reading, which last year she was assigned every night (often she had her free choice of what to read), I notice that when the story gets moving along she will try to pick up the speed of her reading (probably because she wants to see what is going to happen next) and she does get "sloppy" about the words she says. She will substitute similar words, or omit words. She gets the general gist of the story, if she goes on like this, however she will sometimes miss out on minor plot details and subtleties. I gave up on correcting her over every such error long ago, because it did not make the reading enjoyable for us. It became tedious. But I think it IS important that she realize that she isn't reading exactly what is on the page, so I do correct some of the errors, or point it out when we've gotten to the bottom of a page, just so that she is aware of it. -> Good readers skip words because they are fast and don't need to read -> every word. Study this the next time you read. Are you really reading -> every single word or do your eyes bounce over the text? I did study this, this past week. I've been reading _The Hundred Secret Senses_ by Amy Tan. For the most part, I read every single word. Then again, I find that using myself as an example, especially for things about education and the learning process, tends to not support conclusions about the general population. But, last night, as I was nearing the end of the book, I do find myself skipping ahead, sometimes skipping over almost entire paragraphs, wanting to find out what will happen in the end. And when I read some of the newsgroups on the Internet, I will skim some of the posts and not read every single word. So, I finally decided, that the way I read depends on the context of the reading activity that I am engaged in. If I'm reading for my own personal pleasure and enjoyment, I am at my own discretion as to how accurately I read. I can afford to skip over words if I like (I know this is a commonly taught speed reading technique, but I've never been comfortable with it myself), or even whole sentences and paragraphs. OTOH, if I'm reading a memo or report for work, if I'm reading study material for a course I'm taking, then I probably shouldn't be skipping over words, because even a single word omitted CAN affect the meaning of the material I'm reading. I imagine that with the young children you are working with, that you would classify almost all of your activities as reading for enjoyment, and so skipping words seems OK in that context, as long as the general meaning is preserved, seems OK. I certainly understand about the fine line between encouragement and discouragement, in trying to get students to learn something difficult (yes, even in secondary mathematics, I have to deal with this!). But my question is this: Eventually, it will become important for a student to HAVE THE ABILITY to read every single word in a document. Maybe this doesn't occur until fourth or fifth grade, as they study more complicated social issues. I don't know. But eventually, I am certain that it does come. If a student has been allowed, until that time, to skip over words, approximate the meaning of written material, substitute similar words, and the like, won't it be difficult to all of a sudden get that kid to (1) read accurately, considering every word on the page, and (2) appreciate why it is sometimes important to read for accuracy? When should a student be held accountable for reading each word on the page accurately and interpreting it correctly? I'm sure that their first reading class is not the appropriate place to nitpick, but it has to come somewhere. Letting kids get by with sloppy, inaccurate reading skills past their third year of being readers is doing the student a disservice, IMO. -> As for your daughter and spelling. Doesn't the hidden curriculum -> teach that what we allow, we teach? I would say, yes, what we allow, we teach. Then, I think that the teacher allowing incorrect spelling taught my daughter that it was OK to spell incorrectly. I don't think she was able to distinguish well between when it was allowed (journal) and when it wasn't appropriate (homework...at least in my opinion, I'm not sure what the teacher's official stand on spelling for nightly homework was. I expect that she simply didn't have time to check all these papers over, and counted on the parents to do so, since we had to sign off completion of our daughter's homework each night, and since my daughter noticed that the teacher did not remark on incorrect spelling in nightly homework, she assumed that meant it was permissible.). -> Spelling is part of presentation, a skill that everyone should do -> their best at. John Feltham and I recently has a discussion with a -> university student on the K12 teacher chat echo about this point. I agree with you that spelling is part of presentation, and John Feltham has long been a stickler about spelling. ;-) Are you sure that discussion wasn't in the K12_Language Arts area? I read the K12_Teacher_Chat area, and don't recall seeing this discussion in there. -> If your daughter was in my class I'd be taking her aside while doing -> writing conferences and telling her how impressed I was at the way -> she gets the words right and using her as a role model etc etc. Why would you use her as a role model? For a student who is far above the average kid's ability in the class, it is easy to do well what the others are having difficulty with. She doesn't expend hardly any effort to do this. Using her as a role model only reinforces in her mind that she can expend little effort and be praised any way. An advanced student needs challenges. IMO, using her as a role model only causes bad feelings between her and other students who try much harder but cannot achieve that same level of success. Sometimes I have suspected that she does less well than she is able, in order to stand out less from the rest of the class (purposefully missing words on her spelling tests and such). Better to privately encourage her to work harder at her presentation, not just handwriting, but spelling as well. -> Are we teaching children to read every single syllable or language -> and literature and their fun and rhythm and games? I would say, we are teaching both (not being an elementary or a reading teacher). I can see how, in the first reading course a student takes, the emphasis might be more appropriately placed on language rather than isolated words, in order to encourage and stimulate enthusiasm for the reading process. (My children did attend a private school for a few years, where words were taught in isolation...a phonics method, similar to the McGuffy readers...a list of words on a page, practice sounding them out. I can't say I really liked this, but I can't dispute the fact that my kids are excellent readers and this may have helped.) Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00010 Date: 08/25/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 01:10pm \/To: KATHLEEN WEAVER (Read 3 times) Subj: AP Computer Science -> We used breadboards, with logic chips, and LEDS. Hooked up OR, AND, -> NOR, etc chips in various ways, According to your equation, your -> lights would light up differently. Seriously, I didn't get truth -> tables, etc. until I'd lit up a bunch of the little red lights. I've not heard of "breadboards" before. Where could I locate such items? Are you using these this year in your class? Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00011 Date: 08/25/96 From: DALE HILL Time: 07:33am \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: The Business Roundtable MS> "Downsizing" is a major trend in the Fortune 500, and it's showi MS> business doesn't see the individual employee as a resource to develo MS> It makes no sense for a business to push for policies that won't MS> in its current personnel policy. On the contrary, with downsizing, re-engineering (or whatever you want to call it this week) an organization (business, educational, military) had better be concerned about developing the individual. With fewer positions available, the ones left behind will undoubtedly shoulder greater responsibility and more expectations placed on them -- the organization must, therefore, carefully select its new hires. They will want competitive, competent and knowledgeable employees. With fewer openning, an organization can "afford" to be more selective. But then, how is employee development tied to an organization's postion on supporting the "academic standards" move within their community or state? Can you safely assume that because company XWZ doesn't have a strong in-house employee education program, that they can't/won't be interested in developing academic standards within their community? Heck, maybe they would come out of that standards process with some positive thoughts on how to institute or improve their own employee development program! Again, this sounds like a nifty research project: Who on this committee has a dismal (or nonexistent) employee development program? and secondly, what do they look for in a new hire? (have their expectations/standards gone up or down) MS> DH> Well gee, maybe some of 'em have kids?! MS> MS> Most executives either send their kids to private schools or to MS> suburban schools, in either case schools with good discipline and gr MS> scores. Their kids don't go to inner-city schools, reform of which MS> affect the education their kid gets. But wouldn't a consistent framework of standards be beneficial to all schools, both inner- and outer-city? Throughout the reading I've done to date, the move is for this framework, rather than to impose a complex, ridgid set of immovable standards on a district or individual school...there must be room at the local level for people to make it work (I've not read anything yet that advocates a "national standards-in-a-box" approach) I would expect support from the community on developing these standards would benefit all schools in the community. I guess it's important to step back a second and look at this guide for what it is --- a guide to help interested business people participate in this process of developing academic standards. Those that ignore the need for standards or dismiss the value of our educational system will not read it, will not participate in the process and will continue on as they have in the past. Those that are interested in the topic, value education, think they *may* have something to contribute have a tool to introduce them to the topic and whet their appetite for more. Reading this guide surely won't turn someone into a world class standards developer overnight, but it may enlighten someone enough to make them *care* about the issue of standards or some other aspect related to the education of our students (young and old). From there, who knows, maybe that person will become actively involved or maybe they'll just attend one more PTA meeting, or pay a little more attention to their kids math questions or ... its hard to imagine all the possiblities. Dale --- TriDog 10.0 * Origin: The SPECTRUM BBS * 701-280-2343 * Fargo, ND * (1:2808/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00012 Date: 08/25/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:45pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: National Curriculum -> Quotes are taken from a message written by Sheila to Charles on -> 08/11/96... -> SK>Of course, the College Board spends an enormous amount to train -> SK> these teachers on specific questions each year (I think 1.5 -> SK> days out of 2 work weeks is spent on the training before -> SK> the actual grading of the exams begins). What state is -> SK> going to be able to give that much training time to all the -> SK> teachers in their state? -> What college admissions officer wants to pour over volumes of essays -> and interdisciplinary projects to determine if a student has basic -> skills? What employer would do it? Although I agree with you, that it is not likely that college admissions personal, nor employers wish to even glance through multitudes of portfolios to decide on their candidate selections, the point I was (trying to) make was not quite related to that. I was suggesting some way of evaluating a portfolio down to a grade in a consistent fashion, similar to what is done in scoring the free response sections of the AP examinations. They do have a Studio Art AP course, in which the students submit portfolios of their work. I have no idea how this subject area is scored, but if it is similar to scoring in the other areas, grades are awarded very consistently. When a college receives a score from the College Board for a student who submitted a portfolio for the AP Studio Art course, the college does not see the student's portfolio, only the grade. (I believe it is possible for the school to order the students portfolio, or in some manner, borrow it for viewing, if they desire, but that requires some additional effort on the part of the university.) An additional barrier I see to achieving consistency in scoring portfolios across an entire state, is that the instructors will not all give similar assignments, they will not all have samples of the same type of work in their students portfolios. Unless, beforehand, the state gives some sort of detailed outline as to what type of work should be represented in the portfolio. -> How much does it tell the prospective college that the child was able -> to put together 3 well done essays and 4 projects - it says nothing -> about the student's average work or daily effort. True. I don't know. I can tell you that I personally am disenchanted with the idea of implementing portfolios. I see the arguments that advocates mention, about the student being able to see growth over time in their assignments. I do think that is valuable. However, it is SO much work. I tried to dabble a bit with portfolios last year in my Intermediate Algebra class (being reasonable, I selected only a single course to implement them in). Unfortunately, these were remedial students who were not well adapted to doing non-routine assignments. They didn't like writing essays or reflections. I had them do one project early in the year, which I liked, where they selected magazine articles or newspaper articles, etc.. in which they noted that math was being used. I felt that for this particular group of students it was important that they see math being used all around them. But all too quickly, I noted that I was falling behind in covering the curriculum. I had to keep pace with the other instructors teaching the same course. The students needed more intensive work in basic math skills that they should have had before my course. I got bogged down with the other courses I was teaching, the general rat-race of trying to keep up with grading papers, etc..., and the portfolios fell by the wayside. :-( At the workshop I attended in July for the Geometer's Sketchpad software from Key Curriculum Press, one of the presentors did give some very detailed suggestions on how she implemented and graded portfolios. Perhaps, in a couple of months when I have some time I might type up something about how she suggested using portfolios in a math class. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00013 Date: 08/25/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:49pm \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Where We Stand -> Although our teachers stress academic excellence and our state has -> the Regents exams to keep the kids on their toes, we have too many -> families who simply see no advantage in working hard enough in school -> to achieve at the AP level. So, you are saying that Al Shankers suggestion to raise standards by making greater participation in the AP program a goal in many states (he cites South Carolina as an example), would not work in your area? Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCV00014 Date: 08/26/96 From: KATHLEEN WEAVER Time: 06:43am \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 2 times) Subj: AP Computer Science Hello Sheila! Replying to a message of Sheila King to Kathleen Weaver: SK> I've not heard of "breadboards" before. Where could I locate such SK> items? Are you using these this year in your class? Radio Shack used to carry them. Kathleen --- FleetStreet 1.17+ * Origin: Texas K9 Police Assn BBS (1:124/4220)