--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00016 Date: 08/12/96 From: PAUL SAYAN Time: 08:20am \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Single Sex Classes CB>LP>I, too, felt mostly neutral about both of the gender based articles I CB>LP>posted, until I started getting arguments from people trying to pick CB>LP>them apart. I then went back & reread them to find myself agreeing hat CB>LP>females ARE put under pressure to behave a certain way. CB>LP> CB>LP>Look at this echo, for instance. CB>That comment intrigues me no end. What am I supposed to be looking at CB>in this echo? What pressures are us "Male - crunting types" putting on the female types in this echo? Keep your stick on the Ice, Paul * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! --- TriDog 6.1 * Origin: Resurrection Bay BBS Seward, Alaska 907-224-8919 (1:3550/602) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00017 Date: 08/12/96 From: PAUL SAYAN Time: 08:22am \/To: VIRGINIA BLALOCK (Read 3 times) Subj: Discipline VB>Paul Sayan was proclaiming to Virginia Blalock about VB> Discipline on 07-30-96 10:52: VB> VB> I went to two colleges, and there were attendance records taken in VB> VB> most of the classes I went to. But unlike high school, if a kid is VB> VB> not there enough, he simply gets an F or INCOMPLETE and the prof goes VB> VB> on. VB> PS> The university I went to lost about a third of its student VB> PS> population in the first year. I have no idea what that stat is, now. VB> What year were most of the kids? I know that freshman year is VB> usually difficult for many, and perhaps that might be part of it. BINGO! You are a winner! The freshman! Somehow, I don't think the movie "Animal House" helped college attendence. Keep your stick on the Ice, Paul * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is umop apisdn --- TriDog 6.1 * Origin: Resurrection Bay BBS Seward, Alaska 907-224-8919 (1:3550/602) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00018 Date: 08/12/96 From: PAUL SAYAN Time: 08:32am \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Illegal Immigrants MS>PS> MS>PS> So I guess the real question here is "Are there citizens of MS>PS> this MS>PS> MS>PS> country, or any specific State in the Union who can be denied MS>PS> MS>PS> services MS>PS> MS>PS> normally allowed to all?" MS>PS> MS> Yes. MS> Of course there are American citizens with no entitlement to a given MS>service. MS>School attendance is limited to those legally residing in a school MS>attendance zone. Are there zones that have no schools, therefore the State has no obligation to provide schooling? Not even in Alaska does this occur. MS>A kid can have been born in a school district and he has no MS>"right" to attend the schools there if his parents move abroad...so the id MS>deported parents would have no legal "right" to go to school in the town his MS>parents were deported from, even if the kid is an American citizen born to t MS>illegals. School district do not consider where a child was born in terms of if they can attend school. They consider where the child resides. Assuming - refocusing on the question - the child is an American citizen, they have a right to attend school in the school where they live until the are legally expelled or have graduated. Keep your stick on the Ice, Paul * SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? --- TriDog 6.1 * Origin: Resurrection Bay BBS Seward, Alaska 907-224-8919 (1:3550/602) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00019 Date: 08/12/96 From: PAUL SAYAN Time: 08:39am \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Welfare Reform MS> Because the _aliens_ being denied welfare under the welfare-reform ill MS>not "citizens"! MS> Also, congress has the authority to decide what categories of people are MS>eligible for welfare, generally. (For instance, congress can require all MS>school-age heads of households seeking AFDC to live with their parents. MS>Congress can determine the income thresholds for welfare eligibility.) nd MS>absent some kind of _constitutionally_-prohibited discrimination like racism MS>sexism, it's allowed. In terms of denying the right of legally born U.S citizens to attend school based on the non - citizenship of parents, how long is that practice going to hold up? In Seward, we have the State's hardest prison( Spring Creek Correctional Institution ). Many of the convicts have their families move to Seward, and guess who gets to teach them? Why not place these folks into the same classification as citizens with non - citizen parents? In fact, what is to stop the government from going beyond denying schooling to these folks? How about the right to use the roads, hospitols(public), electrical services, roads, police protection, right to go to chruch, right of free speech,etc...? Where is the line drawn? Keep your stick on the Ice, Paul * SLMR 2.1a * Ressurection Bay BBS - Seward, Ak --- TriDog 6.1 * Origin: Resurrection Bay BBS Seward, Alaska 907-224-8919 (1:3550/602) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00020 Date: 08/13/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 07:09pm \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Professional Development From the August 8, 1996 Daily Report Card: -> *1 TAKING CHARGE: TEACHERS AND PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT -> America's teachers find they have little time and -> opportunity to gain valuable professional development -> experiences, according to a survey of more than 800 teachers -> nationwide. "Teachers Take Charge of Their Learning: -> Transforming Professional Development for Student Success" was -> released by the National Foundation for the Improvement of -> Education, a group founded by the National Education Association. -> The report also advances the notion that the teaching -> profession must "weav[e] continuous learning into the fabric of the -> teaching job as the foundation for large-scale improvement of student -> achievement in schools." "Schools can only be as good as the -> teachers in them," said NFIE Executive Director Judith Renyi. "This -> is something that all other so-called 'reform efforts' have missed," -> she added. -> -> Findings from the report include: almost three in four said -> they engage in professional growth to improve student -> achievement; 55% said they participate in professional -> development to improve their teaching skills; only 5% said they -> engaged in professional development to earn extra money. -> "Taking Charge" makes several recommendations including: -> help teachers take charge of their own learning; find time for -> continuous professional development; develop partnerships; and -> determine resources. -> "Teacher development is not just acquiring a degree and -> getting a teaching license; teacher development is about career- long -> learning," said Arthur Wise, chairman of the NFIE Board of Directors. -> He added: "One size does not fit all and that -> approach must be abandoned and replaced with school-based teacher -> learning that is focused on what students need to attain high -> standards of learning." -> Wise and Renyi said NFIE plans to implement the report's -> recommendations in sixteen model sites throughout the country and -> invites the profession and the public to join the effort. NFIE has -> received grants from The Carnegie COrporation of New York and other -> private funders to build high-quality and continuous -> learning into teachers' daily, weekly and year-long work. -> The program, "A Change in Course," will provide a total of -> $525,000 over three years in grants to union affiliates, subject- -> based teacher associations, teacher networks and centers, -> nonprofit consortia, alliances and partnerships that are -> representative of and led by teachers or their designated -> leaders, said Renyi. Letters of intent to apply must be -> postmarked by 1 November. For more information contact NFIE; -> 1201 Sixteenth Street NW; Washington, D.C. 20036-3207; 202/822- -> 7840. -> Copies of the report are available for $15.00, plus $3.00 -> shipping and handling from NFIE Publications; P.O. Box 509, West -> Haven, Conn. 06516. --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00021 Date: 08/12/96 From: KELVIN MICHAEL Time: 04:30pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: Graphing Calcs - OHP I have a several Casio 7000G-OHP Graphing Calculators for sale for $30 each. These are unused and are perfect for teachers and for presentations using an OVERHREAD PROJECTOR. If interested reply to the address in the tag- line below. Thanks, Kelvin Franko Bethlehem, PA ... E-Mail: kellyfranko@juno.com ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Father & Son*610-439-1509*Whitehall Pa (1:2607/112.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00022 Date: 08/13/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 10:41pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: book recommendation - history of reading22:41:1508/13/96 I'm reading an Illich book now, called IN the Vineyard of the Text. It's not a political commentary or anything like that. He's delving into what "reading" meant in the Middle Ages, compared to now. So far it's really good. THe book is devoted to a discussion of the _Didascalicon_ of Hugh of St. Victor. It takes you throught the journey that Hugh made in his book, and describes how it was a breakthrough kind of book in the 11th century. What's neat is how Illich describes the history of certain words. like, in talking about the word "symbol": "The Greek verb symballein means 'to bring or throw or put together.' It can mean the food which participants bring along for the festive table. It is a summary, a tally, or token which only in late antiquity acquires the meaning of semeion, which is sign. Significantly, symbolon came to mean signum in the writings of the late Greek Fathers, especially Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite ..." Vineyard of the Text was written a couple of years ago, and I would say it's a sequel to ABC: Alphabetization of the Popular Mind, which explores the transition from an oral culture to a written one. While Vineyard concentrates on the 11th century, ABC spans the whole range of history. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00023 Date: 08/14/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 12:32am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Ivan Illich -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=- MM>What I mean to say, is that SHOULD be the responsiblity of parents, MM>not strangers. There shouldn't be any laws interfering with that. DT> No matter how noble an idea that may sound, the reality is that in any DT> given society you will find many irresponsible parents who neglect DT> their children in many ways. Yes, so what's the point of trying to change that? It's a time-eternal thing. DT> If we simply left things up to parents with no laws governing their DT> parental responsibility children would be put at serious risk. No, only a small handful of children who have lousy parents. Most parents aren't lousy. We're here on Earth, aren't we? We survived tens of thousands of years, with no laws, different laws, opposing laws, changed laws ... DT> Regarding school attendance, without laws some parents would neglect DT> to send their kids to school. That's a good thing, not a bad thing! MM> DT> I am sure Illich has some ideas that can benefit education. But MM> DT> to suggest the whole system be dismantled and then restructured MM> DT> is not reality. MM>Actually he says there's no point in doing anything except MM>dismantling the entire system, and I agree with him. DT> It will never happen.....and I say to you that there is no point in DT> dismantling the entire system. I say to you that we have one of the DT> best educational systems in the world today. Does that mean it's good, or merely the best of something that's shoddy to start with? DT> the last year members of an American high school team in math out DT> scored team members from all other countries. We hear many bad things DT> about the state that our educational system is in and how it needs DT> fixing. I think we have a very good system and it produces some of DT> the greatest minds on this planet. Every country produces some of the greatest talent on the planet. Ramanijuan was born in obscurity in a village in India. Gabriel-Marquex was born in Columbia. Mafouz in Egypt. You know ... MM>Naturally. In fact, it doesn't allow for any of the changes that MM>Ilich or you or I would propose. DT> Then it doesn't make sense to argue these points in favor of a system DT> (Illich's) that could never materialize. I think it can materialize. MM> DT> So to suggest otherwise is a waste of time. MM>If you see a drowning person are you going to ignore him because it's MM>fate for him to be in there drowning? Yeah going against the system MM>is formidable. But it's worse to sit around doing nothing, cuz then MM>you're an accomplice in the atrocities. DT> I don't think the analogy fits. I don't agree with you that our DT> educational system is drowning...nor is it treading water. Rather it DT> is swimming well....like the ladies of the US team did in the Olympics DT> leaving the other countries behind in their wake. Then that's why you need to read Illich. REad _Deschooling Society_ and "In Lieu of Education". DT> I'm a trench worker Michael. I am on the front lines. Noam Chompsky, DT> Illich and others may have some things to say, good or bad, regarding DT> education in America and where it is today. Meanwhile I have 25 DT> energetic little 5 year olds who want to paint and draw flowers and DT> build towers and go pee. My focus is on how I can provide the best DT> educational experience for the ones in my care. When someone comes on DT> the educational scene (as Illich has and countless others before him DT> and countless others after him) with ideas that will "fix" all our DT> educational woes my reaction is "here we go again" and "I wonder what DT> we should make in art tomorrow?" Illich is a teacher, too, Dan. He teaches language in Cuernavaca, he runs learning projects, he's a professor at different colleges. Instead of dismissing him offhand, you should _read_ him and then decide if you want to dismiss him. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00024 Date: 08/14/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 12:43am \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Ivan Illich -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=- MM>But you're missing the point. You'd also be well-rounded without the MM>schooling and educational experience, in a non-schooled society. MM>You'd be learning from all kinds of teachers who have skills to offer MM>that are easily accessible and autonomous. DT> Not necessarily, I wouldn't have studied many of the thing required of DT> me to get certified. I studied many subjects because I had to take DT> required courses and along the way developed interests that otherwise DT> I never would have developed (most likely). You see the kinds of words you're using, though? "Certified" and things like that. We shouldn't have to be certified. Things should be easily accessible, like open-air marketplaces. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCJ00025 Date: 08/14/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 06:37pm \/To: MICHAEL MARTINEZ (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Ivan Illich MICHAEL MARTINEZ spoke of Re: Ivan Illich to DAN TRIPLETT on 08-14-96 MM> -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=- MM> DT> If we simply left things up to parents with no laws governing MM> DT> their parental responsibility children would be put at serious MM> DT> risk. MM>No, only a small handful of children who have lousy parents. Most MM>parents aren't lousy. We're here on Earth, aren't we? We survived MM>tens of thousands of years, with no laws, different laws, opposing MM>laws, changed laws ... So then you are saying in the interest of the total freedom of others it's ok with you if any number of children are put at serious risk, both educationally and emotionally, not to mention the risk of physical abuse that is not uncommon in many families? MM> MM> DT> Regarding school attendance, without laws some parents would MM> DT> neglect to send their kids to school. MM> MM>That's a good thing, not a bad thing! How is it a good thing that children would be neglected? If Illich supports this concept you can have it. MM> MM> MM> DT> I am sure Illich has some ideas that can benefit education. MM> MM> DT> But to suggest the whole system be dismantled and then MM> MM> DT> restructured is not reality. MM> MM> DT>I say to you that we have MM> DT> one of the best educational systems in the world today. MM> MM>Does that mean it's good, or merely the best of something that's MM>shoddy to start with? ~~~~~~ It's exactly this kind of language that will alienate those in education that you would like to have listen to you. When you say that our current system is shoddy you turn off the ears of many teachers, myself included, instead of getting them to listen. When people begin to cut down the educational system teachers take it personal. I should mention that such language is not appropriate for this forum and if you care to dialogue further regarding Illich I hope you will keep those remarks to yourself. Dan --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256)