--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00006 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 06:35am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: 'Puter-Tech Curriculm Hi Carl, CB-> BA> Have you tried the robots? how do they work? CB-> BA> Are they expensive? CB->Yes, we had one robot that could be programmed to draw using LOGO, it CB->worked as well as the other robots-however the other robots could be fed CB->program and then take off on their own (RS-232 interface). The idea sounds wonderful, what an excellent way to have a hands on , programming experience, how much would a robot cost? where would I get one? how many would I need? Are there any other questions I ought to ask about it? Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it? --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00007 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 06:47am \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 3 times) Subj: 'PUTER-TECH CURRICULM Hi Shelia, SK->If you think that the colleges are going to require exposure to SK->programming as part of the undergraduate programs, I think you've got SK->another think coming (as my mother used to say) ;-) Yore Mom wuz likely a wize one. No Doubt. I don't really think that (evolving college requirements), I don't know what to think about it. I can speculate that they might require programming exposure sometine. Didn't they demand Latin and Greek as part of the basic core requirements at one time? They do change those things. But probably not in my lifetime SK->In my personal opinion, if there is a topic (not necessarily SK->programming) that we want all students exposed to, it needs to come in SK->elementary school or else early in high school. Some kids never make it SK->to college. Which leaves me in an elementary .. Where Watson ? I know that's not really answerable in any difinitive sence. I can only speculate and listen to the speculation of others. But that's fun too. Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * We all live in a yellow subroutine. --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00008 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 06:57am \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: 'puter-tech curriculm 1/ Hi Chuck, CB->I think that databases are easier to learn, overall, but in retrospect - CB->I might buy the idea of focusing on the spreadsheet because of the CB->graphing. Just keep the functions simple so that you don't lose the CB->slower kids - nothing worse than taking something that can be fun and CB->making it burdensome. I totally agree about the fun, I'm leaning toward the spreadsheet first (before the database) for the very reasons you express. CB->We use MS Works with the kids as well. We have a few licenses for CB->Office Pro for the staff - Powerpoint is a GREAT program for teachers to CB->build lessons around. CB->Have you had any contact with Hyperstudio? It's all the rage around CB->here - a great program which kids can use to write multi-media reports. CB->Originally written for the Mac, the newest version will be out for the CB->PC late this summer. I haven't any experience with it, I'll watch for it though. Thanks Chuck. Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * On a clear disk you can seek forever --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00009 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 07:21am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: Technology in Classroom Hi Carl, The object of the subject is subjective. I was responding to the thought that computers don't teach anything. No thing teaches anything if you want to get crazy about it. But I guess really I missed your point , at that point, when I pointed out ... CB-> BA> Change the word computers to books. CB-> BA> It's worth a chuckle. CB-> BA> Mind you I'm not implying that computers will serve the functions of CB-> BA> books any time in the forseeable future. Someone might well say that CB-> BA> books only provide answers too. Computers like books are only tools. And you replied.. CB->Hmmm--think about this--how many teachers do you know that have a phone None, but they (we) all ought too. Wow, what a tool! CB->their classroom? How many teachers ever had access to equipment for filming CB->and showing 16mm films, film strips, slides, etc.. Do all of the teachers Slides, perhaps. the others, nope. CB->at your school have access to video taping equipment? How many know how Funny, we all know that we need a video camera, and have spoken for one, But at this time if it's used at my school, it's because of the teacher's private investment, or that of a parent , which those individuals allow the school to use. It will not allways be this way. CB->edit a tape? How many computers does each room in your school have? What 2 in each classroom, more in some. CB->are schools going to do when the standards for equipment change? remember CB->all those Apple IIs out there). What happens when Netscape decides to set CB->the standards and schools can't afford the upgrade? We make due with what we have untill we can get better , what else can we do? CB->What I am saying is that all of us in education need to be aware that there CB->is a bunch of hype out there, and we need to be sure the $ is spent CB->improving education. I agree , but, not everything is hype. Some things are evolving. We have to do the best we can with what we have and what we know. CB->We have heard that this is the information age and that information brokers CB->have power-yet this is not true. Politicians have power because they know CB->how to use information-yet often they are not the best informed. Who would disagree with that? Only polititions I'd guess. I just hope for the best results of what I (in my limited view) can effect given what is given. Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound? --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00010 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 07:33am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: Technology in Classroom Hi Carl, CB->Students need to know that: CB->"Learning is work CB-> " is commitment CB-> " is building knowledge CB-> " is creating ideas" Wonderfully expressed. and very important for teachers to communicate to their students. I think I'm gonna make a poster of it for September. Think I'll add ... asking questions There may be more too ... as I stew ...'till classes ensue CB-> _Silicon Snake Oil_ by Clifford Stoll Hey is this the name of the book that this stuff came from ? This is excellent! Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00011 Date: 08/07/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 07:46am \/To: KATHLEEN WEAVER (Read 3 times) Subj: 'Puter-Tech Curriculm Hi Kathleen, KW->Replying to a message of Sheila King to Bob Anderson: KW-> SK> texts don't look so hot. I know the turtles may not be that nspiring KW-> SK> either, but it is a chance to do something other than mathematical KW-> SK> computations and string manipulation. KW->Yeah, but they are being examined on mathematical computations and string KW->manipulation also. HEAVILY! KW->I tried introducing graphpics last year, early. Many of my students went KW->off on that tangent instead of being focused on things required for the tes I'm confused (not an unusual thing here) can you spell this out a bit more? Did the children know what they were going to be evaluated on? KW->The good news, is that the long int free response case study, is an ideal KW->case study, you can start with it almost immediately in the school year, KW->and give small doses, unlike the previous case study, which could really KW->only be understood after having everything. Also gives you the opportunity KW->to introduce abstraction early. What? Huh? Good news is good, I guess. Can you slow this down a little, Please. What are we talking about (long int case study indeed) Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is umop apisdn --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00012 Date: 08/04/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 07:45pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 4 times) Subj: Single Sex Classes Quotes are taken from a message written by Dan to Rick on 07/31/96... DT>Like my previous post pointed out. One reason for the all-male class DT>would be to eliminate the distractions the opposite sex would have. From "The American Teacher", a publication of the AFT, November, 1995. ===================================================================== "Do Single-sex Classes Cheat Girls?" "In the belief that girls need special help to keep up with their male peers in math and science, an increasing number of schools have turned to female-only classrooms. It turns out, however, that this approach might end up reinforcing gender stereotypes, according to a recent review of gender-based education in a recent issue of "The Harvard Education Letter." "A growing number of researchers are arguing that by setting up special girls-only math and science classrooms, schools send the message to girls that they suffer from learning deficiencies in these subjects. Even co-author of the widely publicized American Association of University study, "How Schools Shortchange Girls," acknowledges that single-sex classes may be "undermining rather than empowering" girls." "University of Michigan researcher Valerie Lee calls single-sex classrooms "a terrible idea" in the Harvard newsletter. While agreeing that there is a gender gap in schools, Lee points out that it cuts both ways: Her new study shows that girls enjoy a significant advantage over boys where it counts most - in engagement with academics (for example, positive academic behaviors, attendance, being prepared for class). She finds that girls tend to be better readers, while boys perform better in math and science, but none of the differences are large." "Lee and other researchers who criticize single-sex classrooms argue that the solution is tO improve instruction for all students. That means de-emphasizing traditional techniques like lectures and question-and-answer as well as downplaying the role of competition in favor of more cooperation. In science, boys and girls alike respond enthusiastically to more "girl-friendly" approaches such as observation, experiments and research in the community that can make the material come alive." "A Narrowly Gender-Based Model of Learning May End Up Cheating All Students" appears in the July/August 1995 issue of the Harvard Education Letter. ======================================================================== I'm not sure that there is anything that can be said to convince you that creating single-sex classes is sexism, for we are just playing with the words. BUT, the article which I've quoted above should give you cause to wonder about the impact such classes might have and why they may not be such a good idea. Chuck Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* A book worth banning is a book worth reading. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00013 Date: 08/04/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 08:02pm \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Standards Reprinted with the permission of the American Federation of Teachers http:/www.aft.org Welcome to the AFT's Defining World Class Standards Series In 1989, a historic meeting took place in Charlottesville, Virginia. The nation's governors and the President came together to collectively address the need for fundamental changes and improvements in our schools. The result was a commitment to a set of six national education goals that would propel our education system into the 21st century. Two of those goals indirectly called for the setting of rigorous, "world class" academic standards for our students, standards that would drive everything else we do in our schools. Why the emphasis on making our education standards "world class"? The President and governors fully recognized the link between students' performance and success in school and the contributions they will ultimately make to their communities and the nation as a whole. In order for the United States to remain internationally competitive - and for American families to raise their standard of living - businesses must be able to hire youngsters with the knowledge and skills necessary to compete in today's global economy. And, increasingly, youth without these skills will find it difficult to get and keep jobs that pay decent wages. It is imperative, therefore, that our schools help students learn and achieve at levels comparable to those reached by students in our competitor nations. Unfortunately, international comparisons over the years have clearly shown that we are not bringing our students up to those levels. There is another reason, as well, to look at and be informed by internationally competitive standards. If we don't, there is a danger that those of us who have been involved so long in the struggle to raise student achievement will become prisoners of the status quo, unable to imagine youngsters achieving at higher levels than we are accustomed to. In this sense, our own experience can be limiting. The current emphasis on world class standards is designed to free us from these limitations and biases, and encourage us to learn from the experiences of other countries. By looking at what students in other nations are capable of accomplishing, we may aim higher when judging the potential of our own youngsters. Since the Charlottesville Summit, much attention has been paid to the challenge of setting world class standards. With the support of the Clinton Administration (and the Bush Administration before that), the U.S. Congress, the nation's governors, professional associations and the business community, some of the nation's most highly respected educators and scholars have begun to develop national standards for what students should be expected to learn in the core academic subjects. In addition, educators at the state, district and school levels are simultaneously organizing their own efforts to set world class standards for students. But what is a world class standard? Despite the frequent use of the term and the references to high achievement in other lands, there is, unfortunately, not much available to apprise us of what is actually expected of foreign students in particular subjects. How much do students in other countries learn? In what subjects? At what ages? How broad or narrow is the curriculum? What curriculum do elementary school students follow and what levels are they expected to reach to enable them to progress through the system? What requirements do high school students have to meet in order to graduate? What exams do they take? Are there different standards for college-bound and work-bound students? How do those expectations differ, and what portion of the student population is expected to meet each? These are just some of the questions that need to be answered if we are ever to understand what is expected of students overseas and thereby become informed judges of the standards now being developed in this country. In an effort to help fill the information void, answer some of the key questions, and better define what we mean by world class standards, the AFT is launching a new publication series. The Defining World Class Standards series will translate and make available to all who are interested the most revealing materials from countries where expectations for students are among the highest. The series will publish student assessments, curriculum materials and any other foreign documents that may help to illuminate what a world class standard is and bring substance to the current standards-setting discussions and activities. Over time, we hope to cover a variety of subject areas and grade levels, and we intend to focus on standards for both work-bound and college-bound students. The countries covered in each volume may vary, but we will always endeavor to choose those where the standards for students are rigorous. In addition to the primary source materials, our goal is to provide important contextual information that will help define the roles that the translated documents play in each country's education system. The materials and information we will publish in this series should serve as a valuable resource to anyone involved in setting or evaluating academic standards for students, whether at the national, state, local or school level. All of us will be wiser, more informed participants in discussions about standards if we are aware of what is demanded elsewhere. But it is our hope that the Defining World Class Standards series will serve an even wider audience. We expect that educators will want to use the materials to compare their expectations for their students with those of their counterparts overseas. Parents will also be interested in making similar comparisons. Business leaders will want to know what other countries expect of high school graduates and how well prepared they are to enter the workforce. Higher education faculty will be interested in the standards for college-bound students. In the end, we hope that this book and the others that will follow will not only be a resource, but a clarion call. Our goal is to generate broad awareness among educators and the general public that we are expecting too little of our students and that we need to work together to enact the kinds of reforms that will enable our schools to help all youngsters reach their maximum potential. ============================== Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* "Call it a hunch." -- Quasimodo --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00014 Date: 08/04/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 08:07pm \/To: ALL (Read 4 times) Subj: Where We Stand Reposted with the permission of the American Federation of Teachers http:/www.aft.org Where We Stand By Albert Shanker Disengaged Students Most people agree that the school reform movement has not succeeded in finding the answer to poor student achievement. A new book, BEYOND THE CLASSROOM, contends that it never will if we insist on looking only at what schools do--or don't do--and ignore the part that students and their attitudes and values play in the equation. But the first order of business for author Laurence Steinberg, a professor of developmental psychology at Temple University, and his co-authors, professors B. Bradford Brown of the University of Wisconsin and Sanford M. Dornbusch of Stanford, is to demolish the claims of school reform critics who say we don't really have any problems with student achievement. According to education reform "revisionists" like David Berliner, Bruce Biddle, and Gerald Bracey, declining test scores are just a myth and the poor performance of U.S. students in international comparisons is a statistical freak. They say there is nothing wrong with the achievement of our students--or if there is, it is mainly poor minority students who are in trouble. This kind of stuff is being well received by educators all over the country who are tired of hearing bad news, but Steinberg and his collaborators give it the short shrift it deserves. They point out that SAT scores dropped for everyone--not just poor, minority kids--and NAEP scores remain flat. Furthermore, scandalously few students achieve top NAEP levels, which are not very demanding--including middle class students, who are supposed to be doing just fine. As for the international comparisons of student achievement, Steinberg, Brown, and Dornbusch say they reveal once again the relative weakness of our high-achieving students: Comparisons of even our BEST students with those from other nations are discouraging. Indeed, in mathematics and science, our top students know less than students in other industrialized countries who are considered merely average by their countries' standards. BEYOND THE CLASSROOM's main argument is with people who say that poor student achievement is chiefly--or even entirely--the fault of the schools. Believing that student attitudes are bound to influence student performance, Steinberg and his colleagues administered questionnaires to 20,000 students over a three-year period to get a detailed picture of students' values and their lives, inside and outside of school. The sample mirrored the general population, with 40 percent of the students drawn from ethnic minorities. The researchers also conducted focus groups and individual interviews with 600 students and 500 sets of parents. Steinberg and his colleagues found that there is a pervasive pressure for students to do the minimum necessary to get by. As they put it, "Not only is there little room in most schools for the academically oriented, there is substantial peer pressure on students to underachieve." Students reported that they were afraid to try to do a good job in school for fear of what their friends would think, and they said their friends laughed at students who worked hard. Academic achievement was so little valued that when asked which crowd they would like to be part of, many more students chose the "druggies" (one in six) than the "brains" (one in ten). The brains didn't think much of their position, either; half wished they were in a different crowd. As a result, many students said they go to school to hang out with their friends and "do not take school, or their studies, seriously." Their out-of-school activities mirror their in-school attitudes. Homework? Students spend, on average, four hours per week on it. (Compare this with four hours per day spent by students in other industrialized democracies.) And half of those questioned said they dont bother with homework assignments at all. Few read for pleasure, but two-thirds have after-school jobs involving more than 15 hours a week. To compensate, many said they take easier classes; others admitted to being so tired that they were unable to do their schoolwork. As far as students can see, their attitudes toward academic achievement are right in line with those of the adult world. Students believe that their parents are largely indifferent to how well their children do in school. And they can't help but get that message from most colleges and employers. Are the schools blameless? Of course not. But as this book makes clear, it is absurd and dangerous to hold the schools entirely responsible. As long as we do, we will be not be able to see the problem clearly--or find its remedy. These comments only scratch the surface of BEYOND THE CLASSROOM. The discussion on ethnicity and achievement, which pulls together many of the book's themes, is particularly valuable. So are the suggestions about what we should do to deal with the problem of student disengagement. I'll return to them in a later column. BEYOND THE CLASSROOM will be published by Simon and Schuster on June 4, 1996. =========================== Chuck Beams Fidonet - 1:2608/70 cbeams@future.dreamscape.com ___ * UniQWK #5290* 'twit *.*' typed the moderator, smiling... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DCD00015 Date: 08/06/96 From: CHARLES BEAMS Time: 06:23pm \/To: STEVE AMBROSINI (Read 4 times) Subj: 'puter-tech curriculm Quotes are taken from a message written by Steve to Charles on 08/04/96... SA>CB> However, the thrust of this discussion has actually SA>CB> been about the inclusion of programming instruction in SA>CB> a 6th grade computer literacy course. SA> SA>It should replace foreign language. I have heard of colleges offering programming as an alternative to foreign language instruction, but I've not heard of similar options at the K-12 level. Here in New York all students are required to take two years of foreign language by the end of grade nine and programming is NOT an acceptable replacement. Are you aware of any middle schools/high schools offering this as an option? SA>CB> If that's the way he said it, then indeed that is an ignorant SA>CB> assumption, but you show your own bias in the following statement... SA> SA>SA> Having a BS in Computer Science, I was totally floored. SA> SA>So, understanding true computer science makes my argument biased and somehow SA>unacceptable? Can't a math teacher argue the benefits if SA>math? You do not read my statements literally, do you? At no time did I say that your argument was unacceptable - only that it was biased. And I have no problem with agreeing to the fact that most math teachers will be biased about the amount of time THEIR subject receives in a school program. The difference really lies with those who are NOT biased - i.e, the general non-teaching public. At this time I think most of them would argue that being bilingual in a shrinking world is of some value, but programming for the general public is simply not as relevant and should be a course of study left up to individuals who are interested. SA>Use of applications has NOTHING to do with programming. SA>EVERY non computer class should be teaching applications SA>not computer science classes. I guess it Was Rick Pedley who argued that even people using applications can only use them effectively if they can program them. My mistake - I thought you were in agreement with that. SA>Are bot degrees required to teach other fields? Why cast SA>off those that have Computer Science degrees? WHy would SA>they be scared off? I'm NOT trying to cast them off - I think there is definitely a need for specialists. This year our district will be hiring a half-time, certified computer technician to manage our hardware and networks. I was curious as to how you envisioned the role of the certified computer teacher - and you now mention Computer Science. At what levels do you think we should teach this topic? SA>Why are you suggesting this thought at all? That would be totally idiotic. Well, you know me - just an idiot... Perhaps it was because, in your first post, you didn't specify the role you envisioned for the certified computer teacher and I was fishing for more information. I wasn't being sarcastic or challenging - I was just describing where MY thoughts were going. You continue to write very emotionally about this topic, characterizing me and my ideas as foolish (previous message) and now idiotic. I REALLY wish you would argue the issues and not characterize them or me. Please? SA>CB> I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I'd wager that that a SA>CB> significant portion (75% or more) of jobs done on computers across this SA>CB> nation on a daily basis are done at just that level. SA> SA>This is the type of thinking that keeps computers in the SA>sterile environment of the computer lab. I don't understand your comment here at all. How so? My personal opinion is that just the opposite would be true. If we can make more people comfortable with using computers, without giving them cause to fear that they have to learn to program just to type a letter to Grandma, then computers will come OUT of the lab. SA>CB> Programming is not required in order for the average end-user to be SA>CB> proficient with a computer. SA> SA>If all you want to turn out in your school are "average end- SA>users" then why teach marketing, statistics, any of the SA>sciences or history? Average end users don't know how to SA>think. I don't know how your schools work, but ours require that students take only enough math, science and history to be average end-users. Only those with a significant interest in and/or talent for mathematics, for example, are required to take advanced courses such as trig and calculus. I see the same sort of thing for computers - teach enough to everyone to make them proficient with the simple stuff, but allow those who wish to learn more to select electives. SA>Knitting is programming.... I don't see the parallel - can you explain how you think they are the same? SA>Daily planning is programming. I must admit, words seem to be getting in our way - I did NOT envision daily planning as computer programming. I had assumed our discussion was about using LOGO, BASIC or Pascal to write step-by-step instructions so as to get a computer to perform in a pre-determined manner. If, indeed, we are talking about teaching children to develop a daily plan for their activities, then I've been teaching it for 27 years. SA>Organized thought is programming. I don't think so. SA>The computer is becoming as common as a telephone, SA>television or use of a car. Don't you think that these are SA>of value too? As I understand it, only about 20% of all American homes have computers in them. Even if we argue that all of those computers are being used, I doubt that we could argue that computers are as common as telephones which are in probably over 90% of all U.S. households. Nor, do I believe, could you argue that anyone with the knowledge to use a telephone also has the knowledge to use a computer. SA>CB> As I said, I've seen many students who are simply turned off by the SA>CB> "logic, orderly thinking, refined argument and creativity" that you SA>CB> enjoy. SA> SA>Only if the instructors are still fording the chalk board style of teaching. Oh, baloney! I'm tired of being accused of being an inadequate teacher, even if indirectly, just because my view on programming differs from yours. Rick Pedley tried to pull the same argument and it is nothing more than a cheap shot by someone who has not provided a single shred of documentation or evidence to prove your point. I'm a highly respected teacher with 27 years of experience and can point to 5 or 6 years of on-the-job experience, even if it is anecdotal in nature, to backup my views. If you REALLY want to change my mind, go find some evidence that schools that mandate instruction in computer programming in the middle school produce an inordinate number of programmers as those children graduate to adulthood. SA>Only if you are going to make it as boring as possible. It SA>seems that that is the only way you see it. Baloney again. Why not insult me again to prove your point? For someone who seems to be so logical, it appears to me that the only way you think you can win this argument is to attack me personally. How could you possibly know if I am a good teacher or not? SA>Foreign languages are more of a waste of time, students are forced into SA>those. Perhaps you are right, but virtually every first world nation on earth requires their children to take a foreign language in school - and most do it MUCH better than the U.S. P.S. If I get any more messages from you as loaded with personal attacks as the last two have been, I will communicate with you no further. Either learn to argue the issues, or go away. Chuck ___ * UniQWK #5290* A friend in need is a pest indeed... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: The Hidey-Hole BBS, Pennellville, NY (315)668-8929 (1:2608/70)