--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC200035 Date: 07/31/96 From: BOB ANDERSON Time: 03:43am \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 2 times) Subj: 'Puter-Tech Curriculm Hi Shelia, SK->-> I did - and I've taught LOGO to 5th and 6th graders and felt that for SK->-> many of them it was difficult and frustrating. It frustrated many SK->-> more of the children than did learning how to use the applications. SK->This is an interesting observation. I wonder I Bob Anderson is reading SK->here any more. I haven't seen any comments from him recently. He's the SK->one who started this thread (sort of?) by asking advice for a computer SK->course he is going to teach, and such remarks based on practical SK->experience would probably be quite helpful for him. I've caught up with the mail backlog up to here, and I have to say that huck surely speaks with some authority I am definately going to take a wait and see attitude about it. If there is interest I might consider his suggestion of a lunch club. But it has a large IF to it. Peace Bob --- * SLMR 2.1a * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: FidoNet: Divinity BBS *Springvale,Me* 207-490-5844 (1:326/422.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300000 Date: 08/01/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 05:16pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: IVAN ILLICH -=> Quoting Ron McDermott to Michael Martinez <=- RM> The current system attempts to do the same thing; I was RM> under the impression that "weeding out" was something bad RM> that the current system does that Illich's system DIDN'T RM> do? The difference is that in illich's system, it's natural and doesn't infringe on people's freedom. That's what's bad about the current system- it forces it on people. The educational system is a consumer product more than anything. It's bought, sold and marketed in the same way as all consumer products. It's presented to make you _think_ you need it. RM> BTW, I haven't yet seen anything to indicate a "system" for RM> educating the masses inherent in what you've posted on RM> Illich... What, exactly, does he propose be done? You should read his book. It's takes too long for me to repeat it, and he does a better job. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300001 Date: 08/01/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 05:20pm \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: Ivan Illich -=> Quoting Carl Bogardus to Michael Martinez <=- MM> Illich's system really is the best way to promote learning. Education MM> doesn't promote learning. It just forces pre-decided concepts on MM> people, the current fads, and weeds out those students who aren't MM> adept at this kind of "learning". CB> Well, I don't think the system will promote learning. I don't think CB> you have been around kids very much. Very few will be self-motivated CB> enough to chase after self-education to the extent you describe. My Everyone always brings up this point. But I ask you, what is the problem with not being motivated enough? It's the parents' responsiblity to teach their kids what they need to survive, as it always has been before school was ever invented. But why should schools force the teaching of other skills, on kids who aren't interested? What has anyone learned in high school that they use today? I didn't learn _anything_ in high school that I need to know or use today. CB> Parents sometime are victims to the latest fads CB> also. Mexico practices this kind of learning after 8th grade-however CB> it is only the more wealthy families that can afford schooling or CB> tutors or "expert teachers". Then there's the autonomous university in Mexico City which is free, or very cheap. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300002 Date: 08/01/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 05:33pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: IVAN ILLICH 1/3 -=> Quoting Ron McDermott to Michael Martinez <=- RM> Which is not what your statement up top is saying; if you RM> are eliminating people that don't hack it, then you are RM> certifying that the others DID.... a lot more people are eliminated then ones that make it. Which shows how unfair it is. MM>But, under a different system of learning, where it's easy for you MM>to learn what _you're_ interested in, these very same students would MM>be much more excited, they would learn much more and they would MM>effectively acquire the skills that they want, _when_ they want. RM> Yes, but much more of WHAT, and after they've learned it, RM> was it good for anything? It's good for something if they are interested in it, yes. You're missing the point that these same people drop out of school now as it stands, or are excluded from the school system after high school. RM> How many would get really good RM> at grammar, math, science, I wonder? Who says those are things that we all must pursue? How many students get good at them _now_? Not many. Believe me, even at the college level. Why are math and science touted so much, as opposed to other things? Because math and science are WHAT DRIVES OUR INDUSTRY AND OUR MILITARY, and makes us a leading force in the world. I guarantee you if math and science weren't necessary to make cars, television, tanks, and computers, you would be mentioning art, history and theology instead. MM>If they want to goof off when they're young, that's fine, but the MM>opportunity will be there whenever they want it, and they don't MM>need to provide proof of some diploma to use it. RM> Maybe I'm not following this.... Let them goof off for RM> however many years they want, and then when they're 25 or RM> so, they'll take time off from work and family to learn? If they want. Or when they're 45 or 60. In a non-schooled system, there will be plenty, better quality opportunities for them to learn at work, etc. without "taking time off". It won't be a big, old deal to "go to school" where you have to take time off for an entire semester. RM> Why is it that I doubt this will work? Because you haven't thought about it. RM> And how is the RM> opportunity to learn going to be any more available than RM> it is now? They can go to school young or old right now. Because it won't be a _funded institution_ which monopolizes the market. MM>Exactly. But they don't have the same opportunities for employment MM>or in the academic system that someone with a degree does. RM> Depends on their credentials... Teaching degrees are RM> customarily waived in the case of occupational education, RM> for example... Occupational education excludes a lot of other areas where I think they should be able to teach what they want, unhindered. How many people do you know who are teaching college who didn't go to college? I don't know any. You see, it's a cliquish thing, it's a club with the power to exclude whoever doesn't pass its approval. But the problem is, it's the only club that's funded in a major way with government funds, it's the only one that officially endorsed. RM> Hmmm.... Do not the people exclude themselves to a large RM> extent? MM>Absolutely not. RM> This is a silly response, and ignores the fact that many RM> people simply refuse to make an effort to succeed. They're refusing to succeed in a _predesigned_, prefabricated, narrow system. That's just not fair. If they make the choice not to succeed in an open, opportunity-rich system, then that's fine. I won't defend them. But they are not given the choice. The educational system we are involved in, is quite culturally-specific. We turn our noses on the American Indians because they don't take advantage of their offers of free education. But they didn't ask for our educational system. They didn't ask for our schools. They're way of thinking is very different, AND NOT INFERIOR, to our European way of thinking. Schools are a European thing. So we should force this on everyone, and deny them any other opportunity to learn? Do you begin to see how narrow our educational system is? Not only is it narrow, it is inherently inflexible. We cannot make it any less narrow. RM> Your argument casts people as helpless victims of outside RM> forces over which they have no control. This is simply not RM> a realistic point of view, in most respects. It's not that they're helpless victims, it's that they (we) are given a very narrow range of things to select from. Very narrow. You either play by the rules, or you forfeit your opportunities. Do you think that's fair? Do you think that it promotes learning? It doesn't. It _restricts_ learning. RM> Most things in this life require that you meet some RM> qualification or other, and that has to be certified by RM> some sort of documentation or other... That has been the case only very recently. It's a 20th century phenomenon. We survived and thrived as a human race for thousands of years without that being the case. RM> way it is... Are you telling me that you would accept a RM> doctor, lawyer, financial adviser, etc for your needs and RM> not expect (require) some sort of references? Yes. RM> I find that hard to accept... Why? MM>I don't think anyone learns _anything_ in high school. RM> Uh huh.... Well you just cleared that up for all of us. Do you mind explaining yourself, please? MM>Now, most people in our country learn all they need to know from MM>they're own lives, not from school. RM> I'd question whether this is true.... Question away. The fact is, what do you need to learn in school that is essential for you to live, marry and raise a family? -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300003 Date: 08/01/96 From: MICHAEL MARTINEZ Time: 05:59pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: IVAN ILLICH 2/3 -=> Quoting Ron McDermott to Michael Martinez <=- RM> Without the training I received IN school, I would not be RM> working in my present occupation. Seems to me that it was RM> necessary for MY survival?! MM>If you didn't go to school, you'd be surviving by doing something MM>else, I guarantee you that. RM> Yep, the government seems perfectly willing to ensure that RM> I wouldn't starve, and I guess I could live in a tent or RM> something, maybe beg... This is beginning to sound a bit RM> like the early Christians - You know, consider the Lillies RM> of the field who neither toil.... and yet GOD provides for RM> them.... That's the only other option you can think of, government welfare? What about working as a mechanic, a driver, cleaning houses, painting, trading in the black market, being a chef or a cook, ... ? RM> I learned SOME stuff from my family, and SOME of the stuff RM> that people learn from THEIR families is hurtful! MM>Weeding out people is not the definition of learning. RM> No... It's the consequence of FAILING to learn... Only according to today's educational-system definition of learning, which does not define learning, it defines an institution and its product. RM> We are NOT the only species which has a language; whales and RM> dolphins come immediately to mind as having one. Honeybees RM> have a limited, but quite effective "language" which conveys RM> the concept of distance and heading to a food source. Etc. Those aren't languages, those are the infexible uses of animal symbols. To learn about language, I recommend reading Noam Chomsky, _Reflections on Language_. -michael --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] * Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx[512]462-1776 (1:382/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300004 Date: 08/02/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: PAUL SAYAN (Read 2 times) Subj: ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS MS>If so, it is only because of lax enforcement of the immigration laws. MS>If Daddy and Mommy are deported, the children of the illegal MS>immigrants are not likely to remain. RM>It might be germaine at this point to mention that children RM>born here are US citizens, and I imagine that there are a RM>great many children of illegal aliens who are, in fact, US RM>citizens..... PS>So I guess the real question here is "Are there citizens of this PS>country, or any specific State in the Union who can be denied services PS>normally allowed to all?" I imagine there are a lot of lawyers around with time on their hands who would be only too happy to pursue this on the behalf of said children... Maybe this is a plot by Matt to drum up some business...... ;-) ___ * MR/2 2.26 * See the Future; See OS/2. Be the Future; Run OS/2. --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300005 Date: 08/02/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 2 times) Subj: ANN LANDERS LETTER LP> She further added that to do was to make a LP> diagnosis which would create liability for the district to pay for the LP> child's treatment. I argued with her on the basis that a) I am not a LP> doctor & thus am not offering a medical diagnosis BM> True but attention deficit and hyperactivity _are_ medical diagnoses BM> that can only be made by an MD. I don't doubt that you've probably BM> seen many ADD/ADHD kids and are very capable of identifying them it's BM> just not any teacher's place to tell a parent that in _those_ words. LP>I don't agree with your logic. I don't think Bob is just running logic by you; I think he is stating the prevailing medical (and legal) point of view. I may be wrong about that, but I know that Bob is actively involved in this area.... LP>I do not profess to be a medical doctor, therefore any opinion I offer LP>as to a child's possible condition can be only that: opinion. What LP>this woman was saying to me was that I cannot say the words "hyperactive," LP>"short attention span," or "you should take the child to be assessed." But you can certainly say the same thing in other ways... You ARE allowed to list the symptoms you observe and their results, for example, you are just not allowed to jump to the next level (a diagnosis).... I think this is silly also, and LOGICALLY, you're right; I doubt, however, that logic enters into this.... ;-) LP>Incidentally, once these kids are taking medication, the doctors are LP>quite happy to send 'round questionnaires asking me to rate the child's LP>behavior & describe symptoms. So, how have I suddenly become qualified? You've always been qualified as an OBSERVER, just not as a diagnostician; that's Bob's point... Have you run this past the school lawyer(s)? Might be worth bringing up to the union, etc for clarification.... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * OS/2 WARP...Opens up Windows, shuts up Gates. --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300006 Date: 08/02/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: PAUL SAYAN (Read 2 times) Subj: GIRL CAN'T ESCAPE PS>During my reserch project( a two year study that measured interactive PS>variables versus math computation abilities ) I found that the majority PS>of chronic behavior problems were boys, the majority of remedial PS>students were boys, and the minority of students in the gifted program PS>were boys. I would say that this agrees with my experience as well.. PS>Yet, the project revealed no statisical significance in learning growth PS>between girls and boys. How is the "learning growth" being assessed, and may we assume that this is not the same as LEVEL of learning? PS>This data is really weird, So far I haven't seen anything weird? PS>especially considering that the literature proved that girls generally PS>are two years more mature than boys. I'm not sure literature can "prove" anything; it can certainly STATE something.... I'm missing some pieces I guess.. From what you've said, I see nothing out of the ordinary; nothing "weird"... Am I missing some background somewhere? ___ * MR/2 2.26 * Win95: The Partly New, 24-bit, "couple-processing" Operating System --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300007 Date: 08/02/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: MICHAEL MARTINEZ (Read 2 times) Subj: IVAN ILLICH 1/2 MM>He also always defines his own words, the key words that he uses take MM>on his own meaning. That always raises flags with me... When someone defines his or her own terms, s/he usually does so in an attempt to stifle contrary opinions... What usually results is a string of conclusions, based on nothing more than personal opinion, which the writer DEFINED to be true! It's circular, and totally unconvincing.... MM>You guy have to remember, the changes he would like to see in society MM>and what he finds wrong with the modern industrial world, are ideals. That's clear; it's all pie-in-the-sky, utopian stuff which, imo, would be a disaster if attempted... MM>In advocating his ideas here in the echo, I'm sure I come across MM>sounding pretty radical too. GRIN... As an intellectual exercise, Illich is fine, it seems to me that, as a BLUEPRINT FOR CHANGE, Illich is impractical. MM>It says here on the back of the cover, "born in 1926 in Vienna, MM>Austria, and grew up in Europe. After pursuing studies in the MM>natural sciences, he obtained degress in history, philosophy, and MM>theology. Hmmm... What "degrees", from which institutions, and at what levels, I wonder? No doctorate I guess? MM>Illich has lived and worked all over the world: in 1950 as a parish MM>priest in New York City; THIS is interesting... I can see from whence the background derives.... MM>Why should you provide a certificate of graduation to learn something MM>or teach something that you want? It's ridiculous. DT> Explain this? MM>It's discriminatory. So is selecting a cut of meat from the butcher; so is picking a teacher or school (as you suggest)... This is a natural human function; we are inherently discriminating animals.... MM>Learning should be culturally endorsed, not institutionally endorsed. I'd agree with that; the problem is that US society really DOESN'T fully endorse learning, value it, OR encourage it! At best we get mixed signals.... MM>1. If you are a great surgeon somehow in spite of not learning to MM>read or write, no harm is done and people like you MM>2. If you are a miserable failure and end up killing a couple of MM>patients, you will quickly find yourself without any more patients MM>and somebody will likely decide to make sure that you are punished. But wouldn't this be discriminatory? Who are these people to judge the intrinsic worth of another? ;-) MM>This type of system is much better than a schooled-system, because MM>the outcomes are equally as good if not better, and it is a much MM>freer and fairer system. This statement may work for Illich elsewhere, but not here. It is not "better", because I refuse to accept that a priori. The "outcomes" are unknown, and I may, with EQUAL certainty, state unequivocally that they will be disasterous and lead to the ultimate extinction of mankind! Neither of us has any way of proving our statements.... It WOULD be freer; I'm not sure that it's "fairer", I'd be inclined to consider it "dumber"..... ;-) DT> I want to be a jet pilot too but I had to learn all this boring DT> aviation stuff about how to know where I was by reading instruments DT> and stuff like that. MM>There's plenty of good pilots around, especially from the older days, MM>who don't know math and never went to aviation school. Crop dusters, MM>private pilots, etc.. And they don't fly jets.... MM>Let's say you don't need any schooling or certification to fly a plane. MM>If you're so stupid as to attempt it without knowing anything about it, MM>you'll probably kill yourself. And, likely, many others in the process.... . --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DC300008 Date: 08/02/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 09:08am \/To: MICHAEL MARTINEZ (Read 2 times) Subj: IVAN ILLICH 2/2 MM>End of story. No loss or harm to society. If you kill a few other MM>people too, well they had the choice to fly with you. Or you landed on them unbidden... In the process, you maybe destroyed a school, hospital, etc costing hundreds of lives. Insurance companies were forced to pay out millions in claims, went bust, leaving thousands without insurance. The uninsured rioted, burning and looting a major city, leading to more deaths, more destruction, more insurance claims, more bankruptcies, and further violence... After 12 months of this, civilization collapsed and the cockroaches took over - See how much fun this conjecture stuff can be! MM>If you lie to them about your abilities, that's the chance they took. They're not allowed to ask; THAT would be discriminatory... MM>They could have just as easily gone to another pilot MM>who they've actually _seen_ flying a plane, or they're neighbors MM>told them that he had flown them before and he's reliable. It's word MM>of mouth. It's CREDENTIALS... Just a different form.... MM>Airline pilots flying drunk. Which your hypothetical pilot could do as well... MM>What's the difference, except that you don't _know_ he's flying drunk MM>because his certification and the power of the airline corporations MM>shield him from inquiry. This is nonsense... First of all, it wouldn't matter which siutuation applied, you STILL wouldn't know he's flying drunk, and if you didn't like the ride, you wouldn't come back. So far, no difference.... In one case, you're in the position of trusting the airline, in the other, you're in the position of trusting the pilot (or maybe, if you're lucky, people you know - It is HIGHLY unlikely, however, that people you know are going to be able to refer you to a specific pilot who will take you to Germany). Either way, you are put in a position of seeking certification of the pilot, and either way, a poor pilot can be found out, but might NOT be... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * For a good time, call 1-800-3IBMOS2 --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1a * Origin: The Dolphin BBS Pleasant Valley NY 914-635-3303 (1:2624/302)