--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00044 Date: 04/23/98 From: PERRY HOLLEY Time: 06:50pm \/To: MARK DAVY (Read 0 times) Subj: Goliath 2 MD> ST> Is this "Supreme" character Superman himself, or some "Phoenix" MD> ST> entity that possessed him? MD> MD> I think he is supposed to be the "not-damnably-nice" version of MD> Superman. Heck, the first time I even saw (the original) Supreme, MD> he slaughtered a room full of kidnappers without flinching. Gory! MD> {shudders} I think there are three or four Supremes out right now: MD> Supreme, Kid Supreme, Lady Supreme, Supreme II... MD> I am not sure, for I don't follow the book. The characters in Image MD> Comics are notorious for being "over-the-top" powerful, but they MD> tend to make up for it by how completely MESSED IN THE HEAD they MD> are. {grins, shudders} That's how Supreme started out (Superman with an attitude), but Alan Moore completely revamped the character (around issue #40, I believe... ignore all the pre-Moore issues, they reek), and now the book has a lot of the charm of the 1960's Superman, but without the dopey stories. --- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - (Unregistered) * Origin: WILD TURKEY BBS * Doors, Doors, Doors (1:133/5012.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00045 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:06pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Superman's Super Brain -> Hi, Stephen. -> -> ST> WHAT??? Then why call him "Superman" if he doesn't have the -> brains ST> to go with the appelation? -> -> That would be true if it was only his super-brain which made him -> Superman. I would hope that's not the case. As with ANYBODY, the brain makes you as much a person as any other part of the body, and the fact that they never quite developed that aspect of Superman when he WAS all-powerful is what makes this new development all the more lamentable! -> RR> I kinda Like Supreme.. But Not as another Superman.. I read it -> for RR> Fu -> -> ST> Couldn't bring myself to read it! After that fiasco with "the -> ST> Death of Superman" at the hand of Doomsday. -> -> It may have been a fiasco... but IMO, it was a well-done fiasco. -> All the hype and speculation aside, it was a decent story which re- -> emphasized for me anyway, just what it is that makes Superman the -> greatest super-hero of all time. -> Did you ever read the old "imaginary Sotry" from the early sixties? THAT was the way to handle the death of La Supes!! The final panel was a heartbreaker. Also, Supes was very near death in the classic "Superman VS. Muhammad Ali" giant issue story from 1972. That was also handled better, drawn better, and dramatically had more impact. -> -> ST> Storylines like this were handled MUCH better back in the heydays -> ST> of the Silver Age! -> -> How so? See above. -> RR> Which would have indone a lot of the stuff in this reality.. Like -> RR> him being all that much of a Brain.. able to workout almost -> RR> anything.. like Not build Robots now.. -> -> ST> WHAT??? Then why call him "Superman" if he doesn't have the brain -> ST> with the appelation? -> -> RR> They think it makes him more "Human" to the readers? -> -> ST> All it does is turn him into another super-strong dunderhead. -> ST> When Supes was super-EVERYTHING, he spurred the imagination!! -> THIS -> ST> guy is just "Rocky" in a cape! -> -> Hardly. I guess I just don't share your enthusiasm for all- -> powerful characters (Phoenix was another you've recently lamented the -> loss of). The truth is that although I never disputed his right to -> be in the original JLA (pre-Crisis)... I never had much use for the -> Silver Age Superman on his own. IMO, characters which are that -> omnipotent just aren't interesting. Hokey weaknesses (Kryptonite in -> it's rainbow of flavours) and such have to be invented just so your -> average run-of-the-mill villain can make a good accounting of -> him/herself for 22 pages. The fact John Byrne's revamped Superman -> was not all-powerful and all-knowing is actually what got me to try -> & to enjoy reading about the Man Of Steel's adventures... and not -> just 'cuz a particular villain was appearing (which was always the -> case pre- Crisis). Buddy, that's what made Supes.....SUPES!! -> -> Talk to you later. -> -> David --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00046 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:11pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Phoenix -> Hi, Stephen. -> -> PH> Originally, they weren't going to kill her... just completely -> PH> depower her after the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jim -> PH> Shooter felt that this was a cop-out (she had murdered billions o -> PH> sentient beings, after all), and had Claremont & Byrne change the -> PH> ending. -> -> ST> Don't you HATE corporate decisions....? -> -> But... was it a corporate decision to have Phoenix destroy an -> entire solar system... or was that a writer decision? For Jean Grey -> to continue to live, a "corporate decision" would have had to have -> been made with regards to stopping that "point of no return" event -> too. Otherwise, Jean could never be a hero again. Why not? -> Also... it's all well and good for somebody to come along 20 -> years after the fact and second guess the writers of that story, but -> riddle me this, Batman... do you think that story would've had the -> impact it did... or be as reveared by fans as it is if events hadn't -> gone exactly the way they did? IF Phoenix hadn't killed herself on -> the moon (and instead, chosen to undergo the super-lobotomy) OR IF -> Phoenix hadn't destroyed that populated solar system (which would -> not, IMO, have made her death necessary at all), would we even be -> talking about "The Dark Phoenix Saga" at all? IMO, it'd probably be -> still have been a good story... but it wouldn't stand out from the -> other Claremont/Byrne/Austin issues. -> -> Talk to you later. -> -> David And your point is....? --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00047 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:13pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Superman/Supreme -> Hi, Stephen. -> -> RR> I kinda Like Supreme.. But Not as another Superman.. I read it -> for RR> Fu -> -> ST> Couldn't bring myself to read it! After that fiasco with "the -> ST> Death of Superman" at the hand of Doomsday. I knew I'd be -> ST> disappointed. Storylines like this were handled MUCH better back -> ST> in the heydays of the Silver Age! -> -> RR> True.. which is Just what they are trying for in Supremes book... -> -> ST> Is this "Supreme" character Superman himself, or some "Phoenix" -> ST> like entity that possessed him? -> -> I hope Supreme isn't Superman... for Rob Liefeld & Awesome Comics -> sake... I mean look what happened to poor old Captain Marvel when -> he was published by Fawcett. 8) -> -> Talk to you later. -> -> David Uh....isn't Supreme the recently discontinued silver-suited Superman? Or do I have egg on my face? --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00048 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:21pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: X-Men 137 -> Hi, Stephen. -> -> ST> That's RIGHT!! I forgot about the Comic's Code Authority!! I -> ST> remember reading its manifesto a long time ago, and I distinctly -> ST> remember it saying that a villain HAD to meet his or her just -> ST> desserts if a noteworthy crime was committed!! -> -> ST> But still, they wouldn't have even HAD to kill her off if -> ST> Claremont hadn't had her devouring that planet and its -> inhabitants -> ST> to begin with!! -> -> ST> And you could always ascribe it to Jason Wyngarde's noxious hold -> ST> over her, as well, getting her off the hook!! -> -> You're right. If Chris Claremont had not chosen to have Phoenix -> murder the inhabitants of that planet or the starship crews, it would -> not have been necessary for Phoenix to die. In that case, all Jean -> would have had to do was submit to a power-lobotomy and she and -> Cyclops could've continued their lives together (until fan-pressure -> gave Jean her powers back... and Phoenix/Dark Phoenix returned). -> IMO, the story wouldn't have had the impact that it did if that'd -> happened... but it was an option they had. So why didn't they USE it!! WHY KILL OFF ONE THE BEST CHARACTERS EVER CREATED FOR COMICS?!?!!! -> However, to lay the blame for Dark Phoenix and her actions at -> Mastermind's feet... I think that would've been a huge cop-out on -> Marvel & Chris Claremont's part. The "power corrupts and absolute -> power corrupts absolutely" message the story had would've been lost -> if the "corrupted" character can just be absolved of her -> responsibility like that. Y'know, I've heard a lot of people blame However, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that Wyngarde's influence DID bring about the Dark Phoenix! I even think they may have been a reference to it in the Byrne issues.... -> Yoko Ono for the break-up of the Beatles... but I tend to think that -> she didn't do anything which wouldn't have happened in the then-near -> future anyhow... and the same goes for Phoenix too. Professor -> Xavier may have put mental dampeners in Jean's mind to keep her from -> fully utilizing her Phoenix powers... but I think it was only a -> matter of time before she would've overcome them all on her own. -> Mastermind just hastened that process along a little. Ah so. --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00049 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:32pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Favorite Legionnaire -> Hi, Stephen. -> -> DH> I've got a question. Is there any reason you can think of as to -> DH> why Superboy & The Legion Of Super-heroes #232 is so hard to -> find. -> DH> Currently, I'm 2 issues away from having from -> -> ST> Yes, it's a classic and in-demand issue....hence, there's probabl -> ST> been a rush on it! (That, and it's over twenty years old!!) -> -> I've had no problems locating more copies of the issues -> surrounding #232 than I could possibly want (which fortunately for me -> is only 1 copy...)... but nobody ever seems to have #232. Do you -> know why it's an "in-demand" issue? I know Lightning Lad & Saturn -> Girl were married in one of those huge Treasury Edition-size books DC -> & Marvel were so fond of back in the '70s... so what happened in that -> issue that makes it such a classic? Well, let me see, one of the Legion is suspected of murder by his own best friends. If I'm not mistaken, it was also Stalrin's only LEgion story, and to top it all off, there were some naughty scenes involving Ultra Boy and the victim....racy stuff for the folks at DC, even in their revolutionary seventies days! -> -> ST> Some GREAT Keith giffen stories from before he went cartoonish! -> -> DH> Actually, it was the Giffen era which got me interested in the -> DH> Legion on a fairly full-time basis. Even after his art style -> DH> changed, there were some really good stories being published... -> DH> but I still preferred the way his artwork looked early in his -> DH> Legion career to his later (and current) stuff. -> -> ST> Yes...I'd love to know what possessed him, (and it happened so -> ST> suddenly when he WAS possessed,) to change styles so abruptly and -> ST> completely...expediency? -> -> I remember a while ago (maybe as far back as a decade), I was in -> a comic store and was discussing Giffen's change in style with the -> owner. He told me that neither of Giffen's art-styles was entirely -> his own... at least originally. Being the skeptic I am, he ended up -> having to pull out examples of both styles out of his comic bins to -> convince me. I couldn't believe it... but there it was... I -> have to admit, I do like a lot of Giffen's DC work. His Ambush Bug -> and Heckler were a lot of fun to read. Best thing to happen tothe Legion since Sherman! -> -> DH> You're right, the story did feature one of Triplicate Girl's -> DH> "selves" being killed by Computo (if I remember correctly, didn't -> DH> the 2nd body "buy the farm" in a battle with the Time Trapper in -> DH> LSH (Vol. 3) #45?). I own a copy of the first part... and am -> DH> still looking for part 2 (although I have read the story when it -> DH> was reprinted elsewhere). The Annual, by contrast, featured a -> DH> great story of the Legion having to combat their own hi-tech -> DH> headquarters (which had been taken over by Computo... who'd taken -> DH> up residence in the mind of Invisible Kid II's younger sister). -> -> ST> Heh...that's when you COULD follow Legion stories! I'd be lost -> ST> today. -> -> Ironically though, it'd be a whole lot easier and less-expensive -> to follow the current Legion books. I don't think the rebooted -> Legion team has been around for 50 issues yet... so that'd mean -> there's less than 100 issues to buy to be completely up-to-date with -> what's been going on... Compared to the lengthy run the old -> Legion had in "Adventure Comics", the back-up features in "Action -> Comics", their usurpation of the pre-Crisis Superboy's series and -> the 2 series which came after that anyway... Whichever era folks -> prefer, they've both had more than their share of great and classic -> stories, IMO. -> Talk to you later. -> -> David I'll have to look into THIS as well...(Man, my bank account's going to SUFFER!!) --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00050 Date: 04/23/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 08:33pm \/To: PERRY HOLLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Goliath 2 -> ST> ST> ST> The original Phoenix was the embodiment of characters lik -> ST> ST> ST> Silver Surfer, Ego, Thor and such, in a female vessel.... -> ST> ST> ST> into Dark Phoenix, she saved the universe, defeated the e -> ST> ST> ST> Shi'ar Empire, and did quite a few other things that prov -> ST> ST> ST> her six or seven year tenure. Why would you kill off such -> ST> ST> ST> and plot device?! -> ST> ST> PH> -> ST> ST> PH> Originally, they weren't going to kill her... just comple -> ST> ST> PH> her after the events of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jim Shoot -> ST> ST> PH> this was a cop-out (she had murdered billions of sentient -> ST> ST> PH> all), and had Claremont & Byrne change the ending. -> ST> ST> -> ST> ST> Don't you HATE corporate decisions....? -> ST> PH> -> ST> PH> Not in this case... in fact, this is one of the few times I'v -> ST> PH> with one of Shooter's editiorial decisions. The original pla -> ST> PH> ending *was* a cop-out, and the revised ending was much more -> ST> PH> and moving, IMO. -> ST> -> ST> I don't know whether it was a COP OUT, but it WOULD have been a b -> ST> to treat a character that had been overwhelmingly positive and ge -> ST> nature for twenty years up to that time, don't you think....? -> -> Perhaps, but at the point when she murdered a bazillion aliens, there -> was really no other way to go... a slap on the wrist and loss of her -> psychic abilities just doesn't cut it. OTOH, if you re-edit the -> story to where she never kills the aliens, then it's a whole 'nother -> ball game. -> -> (Trivia question: the alien race that Dark Phoenix murdered (the -> D'bari, I believe) showed up in one other Marvel comic... what was -> it?) -> --- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - (Unregistered) -> * Origin: WILD TURKEY BBS * Doors, Doors, Doors (1:133/5012.0) --- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.40j * Origin: Fidonet * Storm Front BBS (215)788-4662 v.34+ (1:273/216) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00051 Date: 04/23/98 From: ROBERT RICHARDS Time: 03:02pm \/To: MARK DAVY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Heroes For Harding On Mon 20-Apr-1998 11:26 , Mark Davy said to Stephen Turner: MD> I still hate the fact that the "weak link" in the team *conveniently* MD> happens to be the main Nubian character in the book. Then again, as MD> Danny's best friend, he does make for the most appropriate target MD> for "The Master" (otherwise known as Eshu) to work on. Oh well, not MD> as if I can rewrite the storyline in anything other than fan-fiction. By Now, you have seen that Luke did Not actualy betray his Friends.. I wonder if we will ever find out the Connection the Master had with his father ough. Robert Richards - Sysop Alpha's Attic Robert.Richards@attic.rook.wa.com --- CNet/3 * Origin: Alpha's Attic - Tacoma WA - (253)272-8083 (1:138/258) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00052 Date: 04/23/98 From: ROBERT RICHARDS Time: 03:13pm \/To: DAVE JANSEN (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Avengers Vol.1,#4 On Thu 23-Apr-1998 4:14 , Dave Jansen said to Perry Holley: DJ> THAT, is the issue that the alien appeired in, who turned the avengers DJ> to stone.Cap captured him, made him turn them back, freed his ship with DJ> thors help, to return home, presumably to die at phoeinxs hands. Basicly what I said.... Robert Richards - Sysop Alpha's Attic Robert.Richards@attic.rook.wa.com --- CNet/3 * Origin: Alpha's Attic - Tacoma WA - (253)272-8083 (1:138/258) Hmm, Hows about a change of the original torchs flame color to blue? Then he could be the blue blaze! I predect, that inasmuch as he was marvels 2nd mutant character,that his partner toro will eventually be revived.Like.How MANY times has the mad thinker escaped death? I always hated those issues where an old character, not seen for 15-20 years, is brought back, then snuffed in the same issue. I loved Sub-Mariner 14,June 1969 where subby fought what he first thought was the original torch, then who was reveiled as toro.I bought it, thinking it was Johnny Storm he was facing from the cover.It was a BIG suprise to find that it was toro.It wouldnt take much effort to think up a story to acount for his survival, re-capture by the thinker,& put in cold storage as an emergency weapon, down the line. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.1d * Origin: The Playhouse TC's Gaming BBS/www.phouse.com/698.3748 (1:282/4059) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00053 Date: 04/24/98 From: DAVE JANSEN Time: 01:54am \/To: ROBERT RICHARDS (Read 0 times) Subj: Original torch Hmm, Hows about a change of the original torchs flame color to blue? Then he could be the blue blaze! I predect, that inasmuch as he was marvels 2nd mutant character,that his partner toro will eventually be revived.Like.How MANY times has the mad thinker escaped death? I always hated those issues where an old character, not seen for 15-20 years, is brought back, then snuffed in the same issue. I loved Sub-Mariner 14,June 1969 where subby fought what he first thought was the original torch, then who was reveiled as toro.I bought it, thinking it was Johnny Storm he was facing from the cover.It was a BIG suprise to find that it was toro.It wouldnt take much effort to think up a story to acount for his survival, re-capture by the thinker,& put in cold storage as an emergency weapon, down the line. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.1d * Origin: The Playhouse TC's Gaming BBS/www.phouse.com/698.3748 (1:282/4059)