--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00009 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 10:23am \/To: DONNA RANSDELL (Read 3 times) Subj: Notes from school to parent -> I am also very disgusted with the amount of commercialism in the -> school - tho I solved that problem this past year by sending a note -> to each of the children's teachers (with a CC: to the PTA President -> and the school principal) that I didn't want any notes coming home -> that did not deal directly with classroom, school, or school -> district. (No notes about commercial soccer clubs, no "free" coupons -> for things which are not really free. I got a very supportive phone -> call from the PTA president in return.) I am certainly against commercialism in the school, and don't seem to see the same thing you are seeing (i.e. promotional materials being sent home). I do see a great potential, though, for the school to inform about certain types of community activities, such as brownie troops or the local AYSO soccer tryouts or other things like that which I might otherwise have been unaware of. I am glad that our children's school does send home flyers about the local community Rec program and aforementioned items, etc... Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00010 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 10:28am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: 'PUTER-TECH CURRICULM -> SK> It will even run on old DOS machines in only 640K, although this -> does SK> sacrifice some of the performance. -> Thanks, I will go looking for this one!! I hope it is networkable, I -> hope to teach a little LOGO this year to my eighth grade students. If you can't locate it, let me know, although pointers from the Logo Foundations page point directly to it. I would be surprised if it is networkable. You could send e-mail directly to Brian Harvey at UC Berkeley to find out. It is not a very flashy program (what do you expect for free?). However, there is a Windows version of UCBLogo called MS Logo that does a bit more. Pointers to MS Logo (by George Mills) can also be found on the Logo Foundation's page. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00011 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 10:43am \/To: DALE HILL (Read 3 times) Subj: Single Sex Classes -> It's kind of funny in a way how we approach the P.E. classes, -> throughout elementary school we always had "recess" together, while -> not an organized gym class, boys and girls interacted and -> participated in a variety of activities with each other...I can -> personally remember one girl who was an incredible kick-ball player -> :) When we entered junior high and the 7th grade, it was boys-gym -> and girls-gym. We could see the girls on the other fields playing -> soccer just as we were, only we didn't play together. I don't know if "funny" is the word I would use to describe it. Maybe from the kids' point of view. But as adults, we know that after puberty sets in boys (on average) outstrip the girls in strength and size, and an appropriate PE curriculum is probably better designed for separate genders (in general). -> Hehehe personally I *never* agreed with the Home Ec/Wood Shop -> business! My mom taught me how to -> sew/cook/do dishes/knit/do laundry etc when I was about 10, at the -> same time I was learning how to run my grandpa's band saw/lathe/drill -> press and other power tools. I'm not saying I agreed with it. I'm just saying that taking courses like that didn't cause problems with people being able to function as normal adults in co-ed situations. -> I'm 34 now, so that will give you a sense of the time period I'm -> referring to. Same here. Although we didn't have any classes like that at the high school I attended. Then again, the physics class I took in high school had about 26 boys and two girls. Kind of wierd to be one of only two girls in the class. -> Fortunately alot of those role expectation type limitations are no -> longer present in the schools. Thank goodness. As I may have mentioned previously, in my calculus class this past year I had a ratio of two to one, girls to boys. Very strange, but pleasantly so. -> I just started bringing this echo into my BBS, so I missed the post -> you mention -- the one that started this thread. If you still have -> it, I'd be interested in reading it. You could netmail/email it to -> me if you'd rather not post it again. I don't usually repost articles, but I will this time since from what I've read, you don't seem to be the only one who's missed it. -> True enough, a few single-sex classes in a co-ed school *is* -> different, than if they were conducted exclusively in a single-sex -> school. I personally have difficulty seeing the benefit of either. -> Perhaps after reading the article you mention I may better understand -> the arguement for the single-sex classroom. I also have trouble understanding the possible benefit. It is just that I have read articles so many times in which research was conducted that purportedly showed this benefit. This past week I was at a teacher workshop, and one day at lunch Robert, another teacher from my school who also attended, brought up this question. He asked the rest of us (all women...about 4 or 5 of us) if we saw any benefit to single sex math classes for girls or if we believed this "research" that teachers tend to favor boys more than girls in the classroom by calling on them more often and praising them more. Not that we came to any conclusive position, but it seemed that we all have trouble understanding this purported phenomenon. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00012 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:00am \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: Single Sex Classes A repost of a message I had posted on 6-26-96 Sheila ------------ Date: 06-26-96 (17:37) Number: 3734 of 3984 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: SHEILA KING Subj: Single Sex Classes Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE (Echo) Conf: Educator (62) Read Type: GENERAL (R/O) Here is an interesting quote from the June 19, 1996 Daily Report Card. It is an interesting dilemma that through our efforts over the last few decades to create equality for all, we have now, through a series of legal decisions, backed ourselves into a corner such that, even when a particular program may be of great benefit to a large segment of our school population, we have difficulty to implement it without legal repurcussions. Sheila *******************(quoted material begins)************************* -> *2 SINGLE-SEX CLASSES: A RETURN TO THE TURN OF THE CENTURY? -> Public schools nationwide are experimenting with "sexual -> segregation, in the name of school reform," writes NEWSWEEK -> (Hancock and Kalb, 6/24). However, the reporters ponder whether -> same-sex classes will survive legal challenges and prove a -> successful education reform. -> The current trend toward single-sex classes came on the -> heels of a report issued four years ago by the American -> Association of University Women. The report claims that girls -> are being short-changed in schools and would benefit greatly from -> single-sex classes geared to their learning style. According to -> NEWSWEEK, the report was "meant to help improve coeducation, not -> dismantle it." While research suggests that single-sex schools -> foster confidence in girls, no long-term studies exist regarding -> single-sex classes in coeducational schools, notes the magazine. U -> of Maine professor Bonnie Wood claims that an all-girl -> algebra class offered at the high school in Presque Isle, Maine, -> produces girls who are twice as likely to enroll in advanced -> chemistry and college physics, reports the magazine. -> Single-sex education also may benefit boys. Marsteller -> Middle school, in Manassas, Va., offers single-sex classes in -> physics and English, claiming that separating the sexes -> eliminates distractions. Marsteller boys raised their average -> language arts scores by one grade after a only one term, writes the -> magazine. Robert Coleman Elementary in Baltimore, Md., -> introduced single-sex classes in order to instill discipline -> among the boys. -> But legal challenges could be on the horizon. The magazine -> reports that federal law does not allow segregation by sex in -> public schools, except for contact sports, human-sexuality and -> remedial classes. One middle school in Ventura, Calif., won a -> legal challenge by changing the name of its all-girl math class to -> Power Learning for Underrepresented Students (PLUS). No boys signed -> up. -> Some critics are concerned that single-sex classes will "set -> back the cause for gender equity," writes the magazine. Others claim -> girls and boys must learn to work together in preparation for a coed -> world. -> However, some teachers counter that single-sex classes work -> because they "let kids think with something besides their -> hormones," writes the magazine. NEWSWEEK: "Impressing the -> opposite sex is a 14-year-old's reason for being. Take away that -> pressure, and miracles happen." * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00013 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:06am \/To: JOHN FELTHAM (Read 3 times) Subj: Mail in EDUCATOR -> The mail started to flow again today. -> -> However, it is dated from 9th June to the 11th June. :-( I wondered where all the Aussies and Kiwis had gone! Hope you get this ironed out soon. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00014 Date: 07/16/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 11:19am \/To: CARL BOGARDUS (Read 3 times) Subj: Businesses Want Standards -> GP>forward that the "first step to solving our nation's education -> GP>problems is to substantially raise academic standards and verify -> GP>achievement through rigorous testing." Augustine also serves as -> Hmmm, so riqorous testing proves achievement? Or does it prove that -> students learned to take a test? Hmm. I don't know. I would think that knowing in advance that one is going to be tested on certain material (i.e. accountability) might give students more incentive to learn and retain the material? Schools in the U.S. that do not have exit exams do have problems with kids learning material just long enough to pass the current chapter test and then forgetting it promptly thereafter. While I understand your concern about "students learning to take a test," I also support high standards and rigorous evaluation. Maybe you are thinking only of multiple choice/standardized tests, which do tend to be more the "learning to take a test" type of things. Then again, maybe the authors of the article I quoted were thinking of the same things. I personally prefer some type of free-response questions in which the student must demonstrate their thinking and justify their response. -> Business has been great at telling educators where failings are, yet -> they are slow to help when they could (and in many cases it would be -> to their advantage). Very few businesses look beyond the bottom line -> and plan very far into the future-this is why many of them fail or -> are not as successful as they could be. The greed of CEOs is a great -> example. I suppose this is something to keep in mind as well. While it has been _somewhat_ encouraging to see the recent interest among many segments of the population in improving education by raising standards, the manifestations of this concern resulting in boards of governors or boards of business who are telling educators what we should do hasn't exactly left a warm feeling in the pit of my stomach. What do governors and business(wo)men know about the day-to-day acrobatics of educating children in a classroom setting? Also, I do question the wisdom of assuming that the endproduct of a high school diploma should be a student who is ready for the business world. I don't think that is the number one priority of our ed system, while it certainly is a worthwhile goal. -> GP> The report concludes that "the transformation of standards -> GP>from rhetoric to reality does not occur by decree from above." -> GP>It holds that parents, educators and students must "adopt, adapt -> GP>and take ownership of their standards, and they must believe them -> GP>to be worth striving for." -> Great, after stating what businesses can do to set standards for -> educators - it concludes with what should have been the beginning -> statement, and even then it has a flaw - the standards will not be -> adopted, adapted, and owned by parents, educators, and students, the -> standards have to come from them, not from business - most educators -> I know are quite familiar with what most businesses need in the way -> of employees. A good point you make about the order of the report needing to be reversed. I am a bit curious about your statement that most educators know what businesses need in the way of employees. Would you elaborate on that? -> Business needs to understand that regardless of the education of the -> incoming employee, constant training, empowering employees in -> decision-making processes, and building trust are items that need to -> be developed at all levels of any businesses (including education). -> Until educators and parents feel that they have a say in what goes -> on, not much changes. Well said. If businesses think they are going to get ready-made employees from the schools that require no maintenance, they are deluding themselves. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBL00015 Date: 07/16/96 From: LEONA PAYNE Time: 10:15pm \/To: VIRGINIA BLALOCK (Read 2 times) Subj: Re: DISCIPLINE MS>> Or just cutting class, which is _definitely_ considered as being a MS>> "discipline problem" at the HS level! MS>> Absenteeism due to excessive partying is the biggest discipline MS>> problem college profs face. VB> When I was in college, most profs just gave no credit for work for VB> these students and went on with teaching those students that went to VB> class. Unlike high school, college students are more considered VB> adults and are not as coddled. Hey, if ditching by hangover is the biggest problem professors see (or *don't see* since the students aren't there,) for crying out loud, give me loads of college students!!! Occasionally, I'm grateful that certain less than enthusiastic learners choose to manifest themselves physically elsewhere. The only thing I really used to hate about ditchers is all the paperwork I had to fill out when a kid was AWOL. A City of Phoenix program has eliminated much of that for us. Funny thing, **every** post-secondary school I've attended here in AZ (junior college, university, grad school) has stressed its attendance policy prior to registration. The profs almost always list attendance & punctuality as comprising part of the grade & detail how the number will affect the final grade. Two summers ago, one prof even counted tardiness to lower grades. The only classes I took at ASU as an undergrad in which attendance wasn't even taken were a couple of education lectures which had close to 300 students enrolled. All the others took roll & counted it. According to the syllabus of the last class I took, the prof lowered the final grade by one letter grade for being absent more than once (we had nine class meetings of 5 hours each.) And FWIW, I NEVER saw a single student demonstrate evidence, by word or deed, of being intoxicated. Leona Payne ... The truth may be out there, but some folks are avoiding it like the plague. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194 * Origin: The Union Jack BBS, Phoenix, AZ, USA. (602) 274-9921 (1:114/260) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBM00000 Date: 07/17/96 From: DAL JENCSO Time: 01:06am \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 3 times) Subj: Girl Can't Escape S 01/02 LP> "So how do you stop boys from trying to grab the teacher's at LP> You can't, David Sadker says, but teachers can run their clas LP> better, whatever its structure, with more equitable teaching. LP> distinction is between managing a class and teaching a class, LP> Myra Sadker says teachers and administrators can improve a gi LP> education, and therefore her self-esteem and her future by ju LP> following a few simple steps: LP> The real progress in fighting sexism in schools, the Sadkers LP> says, is occurring in independant schools. Public schools, LP> except for the isolated cases they hear about, are not LP> addressing the problem. Lots of sides to this topic. The AAUW used Sadkers' research to draw conclusions that are disputed by others..... I find the research on sex based brain differences fascinating. The notion that girls are not being treated fairly is politically correct, but open to some dispute. Please consider the following: From Christina Hoff Sommers _Who Stole Feminism_, p.163): "...gender inequity in the form of teacher inattention to girls is what the Sadkers' research is all about, and many Wellesley conclusions stand or fall with their expertise and probity. The Sadkers, who collected data from more than one hundred fourth-, sixth, and eighth-grade classes, reportedly found that boys did not merely get more reprimands but received feedback of all kinds: 'Classrooms were characterized by a more general environment of inequity: there were the *haves* and *have nots* of teacher attention.... Male students received more remediation, criticism, and praise than female students.' "How much is that? I wondered. And how well, if at all, is the disparity in attention correlated with a disparity in student achievement? I was curious to read the Sadkers' research papers. The Wellesley Report leads readers to the _Phi Delta Kappan_ for technical details on the Sadkers' findings. But the _Phi Delta Kappan_ is not a research journal, and the Sadkers' publications in it are very short -- less than four pages each, including illustrations and cartoons - - and merely restate the Sadkers' claims without giving details concerning the research that backs them up. "In two exhaustive searches in the education data base (ERIC), I was unable to find peer-reviewed, scholarly articles by the Sadkers in which their data and their claims on classroom interactions are laid out. The Sadkers themselves make no reference to such articles in the Wellesley Report, nor in their 1991 review of the literature on gender bias in the _Review of Research in Education_, not in _Failing at Fairness_. The Wellesley Report does refer readers to the final reports on the Sadkers' unpublished studies on classroom inequities. The Sadkers did two of these, in 1984 and 1985, both supported by government grants. The first is called _Year Three: Final Report, Promoting Effectiveness in Classroom Instruction....the other is called _Final Report: Faculty Development for Effectiveness and Equity in College Teaching.... Since the conclusions of the Wellesley Report rely on studies like these, I was determined to get hold of them. But I found it even harder to get my hands on them than on the AAUW's research on self-esteem." Sommers: "The 1985 study seems to have vanished altogether. After exhaustive library and computer searches, I called the Department of Education, which informed me it no longer had a copy. The librarian at the Widener Library at Harvard University did a computer search as thorough and high-tech as any I have ever seen. Finally, she requested it from the Library of Congress. "If they do not have it, no one does," she said -- and they did not. "In the meantime, one of my undergraduate assistants called David Sadker himself to ask how to find it. He told her that *he* did not have a copy and urged her to have a look at the article in the _Phi Delta Kappan_. We had come full circle." Sommers: "I did find the other study: _Year Three: Final Report, Promoting Effectiveness in Classroom Instruction_. It was available in the Education Library at Harvard.... Holding the 189 pages photocopied from the microfilm, I wondered if I might be the only person in the world -- besides the Sadkers and some of their graduate students -- to have looked at its contents. Yet it contains the data behind the contention, now on the tip of many politicians tongues, that girls are suffering from an attention gap that seriously compromises education. Sommers: "What had the Sadkers found? They and their assistants visited hundreds of elementary classrooms and observed the teachers' interactions with students. They identified four types of teacher comments: <*> Continued in the next message... --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GC * Origin: Hafa Adai Exchange Lexington Park MD 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBM00001 Date: 07/17/96 From: DAL JENCSO Time: 01:06am \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 3 times) Subj: Girl Can't Escape S 02/02 Continued from the previous message... <*> praise ("Good answer"), acceptance ("Okay"), remediation ("Give it another try...") and criticism ("Wrong"). They determined that fewer than 5 percent of teachers' interactions constituted criticism. Praise accounted for about 11 percent of interaction; 33 percent was remediation. The remainder (approximately 51-56 percent) was balanced acceptance." The Sadkers allege that boys get a larger share of the categories outside of bland acceptance. Sommers: "The exact number is difficult to determine from the data. In their many published articles, the Sadkers generally do not specify the actual size of the difference, but instead make claims about discrepancies without specifying them: 'Girls received less than their share in all categories.'" Sommers: "As I have noted, the Wellesley Report relies strongly on research by the Sadkers that purportedly found boys calling out eight times more often than girls, with boys being respectfully attended to, while the relatively few girls who called out were told to 'please raise your hands if you want to speak.' Professor Jere Brophy of Michigan State, who is perhaps the most prominent scholar working in the are of classroom interaction, is suspicious of the Sadkers' findings on call-outs. 'It is too extreme,' he says. 'It all depends on the neighborhood, the level of the class, and the teacher. Many teachers simply do not allow call-outs.' I asked him about the Sadkers' claim that boys get more careful and thoughtful teacher comments. According to Brophy, any differences that are showing up are negligibly slight. Did he see a link between the ways teachers interact with boys and girls and their overall achievement? 'No, and that is why I have never tried to make that much of the sex difference findings.'" Sommers: "For details of the Sadkers' findings, the Wellesley Report refers to research reported in a 1981 volume of a journal called _The Pointer_. _The Pointer_ is now defunct, but when I finally got to read the article I was surprised to see that what it said about classroom discipline in particular was not, in my view, at all indicative of bias against girls. This portion of _The Pointer_ article focuses not on 'call-outs', but on how teachers reprimand boys and girls differently, emphasizing that boys are disciplined more than girls. Here is what the Sadkers and their co-author, Dawn Thomas, found: 'Boys, particularly low-achieving boys, receive eight to ten times as many reprimands as do their female classmates....When both girls and boys are misbehaving equally, boys still receive more frequent discipline. research shows that when teachers are faced with disruptive behavior from both boys and girls, they are over three times as likely to reprimand the boys than the girls. Also, boys are more likely to get reprimanded in a harsh and public manner and to receive heavy penalties; girls are more likely to get reprimanded in a softer, private manner and to receive lighter penalties.'" The article says nothing about 'call-outs' and nothing about girls being told to raise their hands if they want to speak...." ......... End quotes * RM 1.31 3319 * --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GC * Origin: Hafa Adai Exchange Lexington Park MD 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBM00002 Date: 07/17/96 From: DAL JENCSO Time: 01:06am \/To: LEONA PAYNE (Read 3 times) Subj: Girls Can't Escape Sexism LP> play with blocks and toys in the math activity box. In colle LP> woman told them she was interested in signing up for an overc LP> class course, but in the first class the professor cut the ex LP> students by demanding that students who had ovaries had to le We can all point to outrageous instances. I heard an parks officer tell high school boys to forget about applying for a job- all slots were for minority women. LP> In middle school, girls face a critical juncture in LP> successful social and academic development, according to the LP> Sadlers. As do all kids. It's called puberty LP> There are many reasons for this. Years of sexist teaching LP> has piled up on the girls. And, "in middle school school, LP> it's self-esteem that goes f Who is doing this? Are the female teachers in elementary school pushing this sexist dogma? LP> these schools. They have concluded administrators pay more LP> attention to males dropping out of school, even though it is LP> more likely that boys, not girls, will return to school earn LP> their General Equivalency Degree. T I think that recent research points out that in the last few years girls are MORE successful that boys in school and college. LP> skewed. They may propose establishing all-male academies LP> even though that does nothing for girls. I believe the supreme court settled this issue. It is interesting to note that there are still a number of state funded single sex schools in America. LP> The Sadkers' book offers countless examples of teachers LP> calling on their male students more often than their female LP> counterparts. This may be because boys are more likely to LP> call out in class rather than politely raise their hands, as LP> girls are encouraged to do. Teachers also often give girls LP> negative or neutral feedback: but they praise, encourage, or LP> challenge the boys." See my previous post with C. H. Sommers critique of this. * RM 1.31 3319 * --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GC * Origin: Hafa Adai Exchange Lexington Park MD 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10)