--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBA00021 Date: 07/05/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 08:02pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 3 times) Subj: 'PUTER-TECH CURRICULM Ron McDermott wrote to Rick Pedley: -> My concern here stems from the way that things went in high school - -> Computer courses became just -> programming courses under the aegis of the math department. -> They then became another math class. Kids stayed away in -> droves. I think that for 6th graders you have to approach -> this the way one does when s/he is trying to get a child's -> interest: Make it fun first, THEN, if the child becomes -> "hooked", bring in the complications... I can appreciate your points. Somehow at our school we have managed to keep programming in a separate department from the math classes (although in early June when I found out I'd be teaching programming next year, the asst. principal suggested to me that we might want to change it to be included as part of the math dept. I told her I didn't think that was a good idea....). My first programming course at the university involved very little math, per se. Mostly turtle graphics, string manipulations. I hope to incorporate a lot ofthis approach in my class this fall. I think that Bob Anderson can have a LOT of FUN with his kids with the appropriate programming language and resources/lesson plans. There are some excellent resources for programming with elementary school kids that do approach it through the "fun" aspect, as you suggest. I'm going to post some of the things I found on the Web in another message to Bob. Sheila --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBA00022 Date: 07/05/96 From: SHEILA KING Time: 08:42pm \/To: BOB ANDERSON (Read 3 times) Subj: Teaching Programming??? Hi Bob, I sure hope you get this message. Hey, let me know if you don't. ;-) You had mentioned whether or not you should attempt programming in your computer course this Fall. I think it is an excellent suggestion given the computer set up you have. I would recommend that you use UCBLogo written at UC Berkeley by Brian Harvey. It's free and it's available for both Mac and PC platforms (and Unix as well, but I doubt you have any Unix machines!). If you have an internet account, there is a newsgroup comp.lang.logo which Brian Harvey reads and contributes to, so it is easy to get lots of help from either the author or other participants. (Matter of fact, I'm going to meet Brian next week when I'm up at Berkeley for the workshop I'm attending.) Searching the web last week for resources for Logo (I'm considering starting off my computer course this fall with a brief unit on turtle graphics) I found the ULTIMATE Logo resource. It is a site called the Logo Foundation. The following text is some of the material I have quoted from the source which makes persuasive arguments for teaching programming, and especially Logo. I recommend you visit that Web site. Good Luck, Sheila ******************(text file Why_Logo.txt follows)****************** The following info, plus LOTS more (including more justification for teaching programming, and specifically Logo, books, software--both commercial and share/freeware--videos, articles, newsletters and other links) can all be found at the Website for The Logo Foundation http://el.www.media.mit.edu/groups/logo-foundation/ Research on Logo: Effects and Efficacy by Douglas H. Clements and Julie S. Meredith State University of New York at Buffalo First grader Darius never talked aloud, was slow to complete his work, and had been placed in a "socialization group" to "draw him out of his shell." When the computer arrived, Darius spent nearly 90 minutes working with the Logo turtle on his first day. Immediately thereafter, his teacher noticed that he was completing seatwork without prompting. Then he would slide his seat over to the computer and watch others program in Logo. A bit later, he stood beside the computer, talking and making suggestions. When others had difficulties, he was quick to show them the solution. Soon, others started getting help with Logo from him. In brief, Darius moved up to the high reading group, skipping the third preprimer. He began completing twice as much work per day as he had previously. He participated eagerly during class discussions and--as a "crowning achievement"--was given a 10 minute "time out" because he wouldn't stop talking.1 Are such results merely happy circumstances, or replicable benefits of certain Logo environments? What does the research say? Logo research has a short but rich and varied history. While there is no one "effect" of Logo, there are many benefits and difficulties that should be researched. Fortunately, there has been enough research done to form a foundation on which we can build. This review will attempt to sample a few key topics within this foundation--mathematics, problem-solving, language and reading, and social/emotional development. Mathematics The Logo programming language was first developed to help children learn math.(2, 3<--a foot note reference which is not available in this file) Much of the literature on Logo has presumed that exposure to math concepts alone while using Logo increases math achievement. Research on this topic is inconclusive. Classroom observations have shown that children do use certain math concepts in Logo programming. Children as young as first grade apply such mathematical notions as number, arithmetic, estimation, measure, patterning, proportion, and symmetry to their Logo work.(4 footnt) Similar observations of intermediate grade children indicate that Logo may make it possible to explore some math concepts earlier than is currently believed. (5,6 footnt) Although traditional obstacles to understanding math concepts do not disappear, we should not underestimate the achievement of the children in Logo environments.(7,8 footnt)So, Logo enhances mathematics achievement. We don't know, however, whether any type of exposure leads to increased achievement, as measured by test scores. Some researchers report significant gains(9 footnt) and even dramatic learning changes for as many as 10% of students.(10 footnt) Others, though, reveal mixed results (11 footnt) or no significant differences between Logo and control groups .(12-15 footnt) Maybe Logo provides practice only with limited topics. Possibly achievement tests assess only limited areas of mathematical knowledge. Or perhaps the "exposure hypothesis" is not fully adequate, especially given the brief exposure provided by most of these studies. In contrast, exposure alone is not what the developers of Logo had in mind. They intended it to be used as a conceptual framework for learning math. As students program in Logo, they explore mathematical relationships. They play with angles, numbers, and variables. They think about their actions. This permits them to build up initial ideas and experiences that serve as a framework for learning formal mathematics. Geometry Geometry provides an example. Children's initial ideas about shapes and space are based on action.16 Logo activities designed to help children build on their intuitive ideas about paths may help them develop their ideas of two-dimensional shapes. 17, 18 For example, having students visually scan the side of a building or walk a straight path will give students experience with straightness. But students can be made more aware of this idea with path activities in Logo. It is easy to have students use the turtle to discover that a straight path is one that has no turning. Also, Logo can help children learn higher levels of geometric thinking. A husband-and-wife research team, the van Hieles, discovered that students' thinking develops through a series of levels.19 Visual level: Students see shapes as "wholes" only. Descriptive level: Students can describe the properties of shapes (a rectangle has four square corners and opposites sides that are equal and parallel). Analytical level: Students generalize the logical relations that exist among figures and their parts and reason deductively (all squares are rectangles). According to the van Hieles, students don't move from one level to the next without instruction that passes through a series of phases. If instead teachers use concepts and language from a higher level, students will merely memorize instead of understanding important relationships. Using the Logo turtle helps students progress to higher levels of geometric thinking. Students at the visual level are able only to identify examples (rectangles "look like doors"). In Logo, however, students can be asked to make a sequence of commands (a procedure) to draw a rectangle. In writing a rectangle procedure, the students must describe and analyze the rectangle and reflect on how its parts are put together. If the students are asked to write a more general rectangle procedure, they must construct a definition for a rectangle that the computer understands. They then begin to build intuitive knowledge about defining a rectangle. This knowledge can later be formalized into an abstract definition. ...... Such findings have important educational implications. Research shows that most students do not monitor their own problem solving, from early childhood to the college level.64 After they begin working on a problem, they rarely pause to see if the procedures they are using will actually help them solve it. They do not check their work for mistakes and they believe little can be learned from such errors. Why does Logo help? In computer programming, errors are unavoidable. Ideally, "experience with computer programming leads children more effectively than any other activity to `believe in' debugging . . . children learn that the teacher too is a learner, and that everyone learns from mistakes."3 Thus, the act of debugging Logo programs that do not quite do what was intended provides students with valuable experience in using their monitoring skills. In appropriate Logo environments, students learn to use monitoring in and out of Logo. In one study, students were given problems that purposely misled via extra or irrelevant information. For example, "When Albert was 6 years old, his sister was 3 times as old as he. Now he is 10 years old and he figures that his sister is 30 years old. How old do you think his sister will be when Albert is 12 years old"? Logo students were more likely to find and fix the error in the problem.63 Overall, one of the more consistent research findings is an increase in monitoring following Logo experience.65-67 It is important to repeat that each of these studies employed mediation; furthermore, this mediation was based on a theory of human problem solving. In addition, assessment was based on processes hypothesized to be affected by the Logo experience, rather than, for example, routine textbook problems. ...... **********************(new article)*************************************** Memories of Logo The following message appeared recently on the UseNet newsgroup comp.lang.logo. Article 2474 in comp.lang.logo: From: kolean@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Kylie Elizabeth Olean) Subject: Memories of Logo Hi, I'm not a teacher, nor do I really have anything to do with Logo anymore. I saw this newsgroup, though, and couldn't help but subscribe. My first experience with computers was on an Apple IIe, using Logo. That turtle was the coolest thing when I was seven or eight. I read a post where someone said that Logo was too difficult for younger children to comprehend. I seriously disagree with that statement. I started learning Logo in second grade. It was what piqued my interest in computers. I'm now working as a technical assistant in my university's computer resource center. I help people with problems they're having with computers. And I kind of owe it all to Logo. Of course, I probably would have eventually gotten interested in computers, even without it. I would have started later when I learned BASIC in jr. high. But I still have very fond memories of that turtle. And I just wanted to share that. --- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 10 * Origin: Castle of the Four Winds...subjective reality? (1:218/804) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBB00000 Date: 07/06/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 04:53pm \/To: ALL (Read 3 times) Subj: Glasser I am wondering if anyone is up to discussing Glasser's *Control* *Theory?* Our principal is a "certified" Glasser instructor and uses his ideas in everyday life. I am a bit skeptical about anyone who "has all the answers" which she claims (or seems to claim) to have. I wasn't aware for example that there are workshops that offer certification in Control Theory. Anyone??? Dan Triplett dtriplett@juno.com * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBB00001 Date: 07/06/96 From: DAN TRIPLETT Time: 05:00pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 3 times) Subj: Class Size Over-Rated Hi Shelia, SK>-> True that a few students who are consistently discipline problems SK>-> can make even a small class less manageable, a creative teacher SK>-> can finds ways to even motivate the unmotivated. SK> SK>Careful here. The teacher probably can make a big difference in most SK>cases, but I'd be careful about casting the teacher as able to SK>succeed with motivating all students all the time. The student does SK>have free will, after all. There are some cases where no matter how SK>hard the teacher tries, the student is just unreachable. (I SK>wonder...I know you're currently teaching Kindergarten...what other SK>levels--if any--have you taught. I work with teenagers and maybe that SK>makes a difference in this area?) Good points. Still my statement holds true...since I did not say a creative teacher can _always_ find ways.(I try to avoid sounding absolute because there always seems to be exceptions)....Yet I truly believe that some teachers have a special gift to reach those "hard to reach" kids. At the same time I recognize that there will be kids that go through the system and no one makes a dent. I have seen this....the free will (stubborn will...anger...pride...even hate.....) gets in the way. I work mainly with kindergartners and believe me they can be as difficult as teens....I also have been a youth worker for about 6 years mainly working with middle-school age students. Perhaps when the testosterone sets in, and self-image is all important, it becomes very difficult to motivate. I know that my son does very well in some classes (the ones he likes) and not so well in some others (and it's usually the ones he doesn't like. SK> SK>-> The "right mix" is far more important than numbers (in my SK>-> experience). And I agree with you fully here as this has been my experience too. I see too that you do consider class size as an important factor. I am under the impression that some don't think limiting class size matters much. That is why I suggest they try 75 kids in one class.....it seems ridiculous....the point being what should a manageable classes size look like? SK> SK>I think you must've misunderstood my post, or else I didn't SK>communicate clearly. Class size is VERY important and I don't think SK>(?) I've ever said otherwise. SK> SK>Personally, I like a class of around 20-25. I've actually had the SK>pleasure of working with 15-18 on the very rare occasion. I think 24 is max....and in kindergarten I have had 30. I have no hair on my head as a result.... Dan Triplett dtriplett@juno.com --- GEcho 1.11+ * Origin: The South Bay Forum - Olympia, WA (360) 923-0866 (1:352/256) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBB00002 Date: 07/06/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 04:54pm \/To: RICK PEDLEY (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Discipline RP> MS> College freshmen are actually more difficult to handle for their RP> MS> instructors, since HS seniors are living at home with parents RP> and RP> MS> college students lack that external discipline. RP> RP> Is that so? Has it occurred to you that many college students also RP> live at home (enrolling in a local college) to save on living RP> expenses? "Been there, done that"! But even at the largely-commuter college that I got my undergrad degree from, just under half (then) of students were dorm students for which my statement is entirely accurate. RP> And that older high school students don't necessarily live at home, True again for a _few_, but not for most HS students. RP> and even if they do, aren't necessarily under the control of either RP> parent to any significant degree? Any parental control is greater than _none_, which is what the dorm college student is under! RP> MS> Also, college RP> MS> freshmen can cut class at will unlike HS seniors. RP> RP> Depends on the college. The college in the area where I live requires RP> its instructors to keep attendance records. Colleges rarely allow or encourage profs to require attendance. What you cite is so unusual that "The Chronicle of Higher Education" (a college profs' newspaper) ran a big article by one prof about his run-ins with administrators at his college when he required class attendance! Even the rare prof who requires attendance typically allows 3 cuts each semester before penalizing the student. RP> MS> Also, colleges lack RP> MS> the heavy regimentation typical in high schools. RP> RP> Can you explain what you mean by "heavy regimentation"? Study halls, "in loco parentis" rules. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBB00003 Date: 07/06/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 05:05pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: What He Does... DT> Matt's a Lawyer??? Wow....I know a whole bunch of lawyer jokes.... DT> Actually Im rather surprised to find out he is a lawyer. I thought DT> at DT> first he was a high school student (based on his reasoning skills and DT> level of articulation). Hmmmmm.....maybe I should write to him and DT> tell DT> him what's wrong with lawyers! Had a few bad experiences that I DT> could DT> draw some over-generalizations from. People (typically) only see lawyers under unpleasant, frustrating circumstances. This often limits the lawyer's role to damage control or apportioning losses: getting the shortest sentence for an arrested felon, getting someone less after a divorce, getting one driver less to get the other driver more. This makes clients not happy to pay $1,000 or more! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBB00004 Date: 07/06/96 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 05:20pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 3 times) Subj: Technology in classroom Sheila King On (05 Jul 96) was overheard to say to Bob Moylan SK> Well, sorry, but I think you are misconstruing. Not the first time ... /-: SK> I was talking about the technology. It's getting so that new SK> programming languages are evolving rapidly, new Web technology, snip SK> How is a teacher to keep abreast of the possibilities? I would imagine by not trying to keep up with _everything_, concentrate effort and interest in what is applicable to what you are teaching. (I don't like the way that sounds....too trite or something) Is it really necessary that you, as a math teacher, know what is involved in writing code for application software? Do you really need to know _how_ the graphing calculator works? (Not the same thing as operating it) You already understand the math involved, what to input to obtain a desired output. Isn't that all that you would have to teach your students about the thing? SK> Teachers aside, how is a private citizen supposed to do the same? Many of the people I know professionally and socially don't have a computer at home. Many use one in their jobs and feel that if they are up to speed with what their employer requires that's all they have to know. Of those who have a machine at home almost all claim to have purchased it "for the kids"... depending on the household it is usually the adults who actually "use" it the most. These are the ones who are generally only a step or two behind the most recent "advance". SK> We don't even have a chance in the educational community to evaluate SK> whether newsgroup access is wise for school use when *BAM* the Web is SK> available and everyone's on it. Should we allow Web access in schools? SK> Wait, too late. Now there's IRC. You are not unique in expressing this. If the local example of introducing the internet into schools approaches being typical of what's happening elsewhere then your comment "wait, too late" is dead on. Dropping phone lines into libraries, installing the hardware and saying "here it is" has been the norm. No paid teacher training in how to, no guidelines in place, no use policy, no PLAN. SK> This isn't IMO a question of knowing where to look for information. SK> This is a case of having time to evaluate appropriate use of new SK> technologies before new ones emerge to take their place. Would you agree that there a feeling of "we (you) have to do this" both within and outside the ed community? I know that I am subject to feeling that way but have been unable myself or in concert with others to come up with a reasonable, feasible way of doing it. The inertia of the system is sometimes nearly overwhelming. The local powers that be have the mindset that if it isn't their idea it's not a good idea. There are more forces at play in all this than just new and newer technologies. ... I don't have the solution but I admire the problem. --- PPoint 2.00 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBC00000 Date: 07/07/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 08:08pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: SINGLE SEX CLASSES RM> MS>Women at VMI just won't get the "benefit" you talk about, since RM> the RM> MS>system they seek will inevitably end when they enter! RM> RM> I understand your point, but the issues involved in the RM> VMI case are not the same as those in a single-sex RM> classroom... Now that you have clarified the VMI case, I am RM> quite sure that the issues differ enough that there is only RM> a slight correspondence... The courts have already ruled on "African-American academies" in some cities, and have found them unconstitutional and/or violative of civil rights laws for their racial segregation even though such 'academies' for black males were sought by black activists. RM> MS>Remember the court rulings on _racially_ "separate but equal" RM> MS>schools? RM> RM> I do indeed, they were based on damages accruing to those who RM> were segregated; that is not the case in this instance... It RM> would be very difficult, if not impossible, to show damages RM> if the programs resulted in BENEFITS; don't you think? The courts that have considered "African-American academies" have not accepted similar arguments. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBC00001 Date: 07/07/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 08:11pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: DISCIPLINE RM> MS>Excessive drinking is just one of many reasons why college RM> MS>profs face at least as serious discipline problems as their RM> MS>K-12 counterparts... RM> RM> This statement is just silly... A "discipline problem" is RM> something along the lines of disrupting class, physical RM> violence, profanity, etc... Or just cutting class, which is _definitely_ considered as being a "discipline problem" at the HS level! Absenteeism due to excessive partying is the biggest discipline problem college profs face. Disruptive behavior _does_ happen, if more rarely...but disruptive behavior isn't exactly common in gifted classes at the HS level either! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: DBC00002 Date: 07/07/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 08:44pm \/To: DAN TRIPLETT (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Class Size Over-Rated DT> under the impression that some don't think limiting class size DT> matters DT> much. That is why I suggest they try 75 kids in one class.....it DT> seems DT> ridiculous....the point being what should a manageable classes size DT> look DT> like? It would probably depend a _lot_ on the course. Discipline problems are obviously less in courses taken only by "academically-talented" kids than they are for kids marking time to dropout age. Look at a list of kids suspended for serious discipline problems (not smoking in restrooms), and ask yourself what kinds of courses they were in. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6)