--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00026 Date: 05/10/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 10:21pm \/To: PAUL SAYAN (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Social Promotion PS> SK> Have you heard about the practice of "red shirting" (I believe it PS> is PS> SK> called that?)? PS> PS> This is unfortunate. I couldn't urge parents enough to forgot it. Agreed. But "red shirting" in sports raises an interesting parallel with retention of kids who don't learn academic material. Nobody is overly concerned about ruining the self-esteem of those who don't make the (sports) teams, are cut from the (sports) teams, or who are benchwarmers...nor is anyone worried that the experience of being kept back in sports will permanently color their view of sports and keep them from thinking of trying again next year. --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00027 Date: 05/10/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 07:14am \/To: PAUL SAYAN (Read 3 times) Subj: TEXTBOOKS PS>But when science books are outdated the day they come off the PS>press I don't see why we would want to use them instead of PS>something like the NASA home page? Let me ask you a question, Paul, as I'm not sure you have the full perspective here.... While something like the NASA home page may be glitzy and have lots of neat stuff to see, how does it translate into an understanding of orbital mechanics, Newton's Laws, and chemical composition of fuels, for example? I think you're looking only at what is called descriptive science; ie, those facets of science which can be described in terms of words (and, therefore, images) rather than of math and equations... There will always be a need for the "classical" approach to physics, for example, regardless of its "datedness", simply because it is fundamental to understanding how the world behaves. Science texts are seldom "out of date" simply because the fundamentals haven't changed over the last 50 years at least... For example, and along with your analogy, NASA might have a nifty little animated clip which shows a rocket's operation. They might remind us that the operation of a rocket is based upon Newton's Third Law, known usually as: For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Now that's all well and fine, but people still have the impression that the rocket exhaust is "pushing" on the air behind the rocket, thus propelling the rocket itself. Beyond that, without the math and equations, their understanding of what is happening is limited. Yes, you can present the material on the home page and have the student read it, but what then is the advantage over a book? For firing up interest, or catching someone's interest, a quick, flashy presentation is wonderful, but the nuts and bolts is still "old" stuff, and relies on the application of math and equations. I can see that books are second best to 3-d video for descriptive science, but I see no advantage whatsoever for the understanding of scientific principles in general.... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something... --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1 * Origin: The Dolphin BBS (914) 635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00028 Date: 05/15/96 From: RON MCDERMOTT Time: 07:51am \/To: PAUL SAYAN (Read 3 times) Subj: TEXTBOOKS RM> Yes, you can present the material on the home page and have RM> the student read it, but what then is the advantage over a book? RM> For firing up interest, or catching someone's interest, a RM> quick, flashy presentation is wonderful, but the nuts and RM> bolts is still "old" stuff, and relies on the application RM> of math and equations. I can see that books are second RM> best to 3-d video for descriptive science, but I see no RM> advantage whatsoever for the understanding of scientific RM> principles in general.... PS>Would it depend on where you get your information from? I'm not sure how this relates? PS> I don't understand why you want to limit a classroom to one book, PS> when one can go to the internet system and have your choice of many? I thought we were discussing books vs. electronic media, not books in print vs. books printed online?? Let me start over again: 1. Books are not obsolete, nor will they become obsolete. Books have survived "moving pictures", radio, and tv; they will survive the Internet as well. 2. Electronic media has some advantages over printed media in that there is potential for 3-d video, sound, etc. 3. A book in your hand differs little from a book printed on a computer monitor; if you have to read it and "turn the page", then it's a book. 4. The potential of online education, while there, is not too likely to be realized unless there is a way to make a profit. Incorporating all the neat things available online is time-consuming and costly; it isn't going to happen without the promise of financial reward. 5. Even with the promise of financial reward, only a few sources will produce a truly high-quality product. PS> Not all scientific information is limited to NASA. I believe PS> that there are a few other research institutions elsewhere? One, or both of us, have lost track of the original point, which I THOUGHT was the obsolescence of books due to the emergence of intercomputer connectivity? I'm not arguing the use of connectivity as a learning tool; I'm arguing the continued viability of the book as a learning tool... ___ * MR/2 2.26 * WINDOWS95?!? Been there... Done that! --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4P1 * Origin: The Dolphin BBS (914) 635-3303 (1:2624/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00029 Date: 05/15/96 From: TOM COTTON Time: 07:01am \/To: DONNA RANSDELL (Read 3 times) Subj: Cbest DR> > I have mixed thoughts on a National Curriculum. I DR>Whether or not we like it, I think we already have a >national curriculum of sorts in K-6. The publishers give it >to us! While I would agree text are very similar I think a national curriculum would come with excess baggage many if not most would not care to have. If it were just guidelines and not a mandate it could be acceptable. IF it was only a core curriculum without great societal ideas embedded into it and if it were testable for results. Lots of IF's. For those of us who still value our freedoms anything national must be approached with caution from passed experience. ___ X QMPro 1.53 X a (uA4+o++WJ!u2M j!O+!h <++o |+iLA :+oN .2oc_ oUaB)++iEe --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: North East Texas Datalink (1:3819/128) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00030 Date: 05/15/96 From: TOM COTTON Time: 07:06am \/To: MORT STERNHEIM (Read 3 times) Subj: Re: Pay... MS> TC>While I don't know about engineering majors in general at the U of A > TC>many aspiring engineers fall by the wayside due to week math skills. > TC>___ MS>They do so just about everywhere. The physics department >is often the filter that does the job. MS>However, weak language skills do not prevent completing an >engineering program. Perhaps true for many schools but the U of Arkansas has put more teeth into language skill requirements in recent years. A great deal more writing is required and courses tailored to technical writing are a required part of the curriculum. I believe it is a pretty recent change due to complaints from employers about graduates that could not communicate information after graduation. ___ X QMPro 1.53 X c+]nof --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: North East Texas Datalink (1:3819/128) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00031 Date: 05/15/96 From: TOM COTTON Time: 07:24am \/To: CHARLES BEAMS (Read 3 times) Subj: Evolution CB>If you find out the percentage, why not share it with the rest of us? >And if you are able to coerce the "powers in charge" into dropping the >federal funding, please let us know what services the district will >eliminate in order to compensate for the loss of revenue. Finding out the percentage is not all that hard I hope, convincing the managers to drop it would be the battle. Money is power, and power is the name of the game in this system at least. CB>I'm sure that you understood that I was not advocating that people >cheat, only that it was easier for people to get on the free lunch >program because income limits were published in advance and because >districts were not required to hire people to verify free lunch >applications against income tax records. But in response to your claim >above, which is cheating the truly needy really more - spending $50,000 >a year on administration of the program in a county or giving away >$15,000 in meals to people who don't really qualify? I think it poses >an interesting dilemma. I realize your not advocating that the cheating is OK. However that takes us back to the reality that tolerance promotes a given behavior. The students cheating very likely know that they are cheating the system and they get away with it. It begins a cycle that is continuous and escalating. CB>I think we're getting dangerously close to arguing politics here, not >educational issues, so I'll make this brief. I can't think of a program >run by public sector agencies or private sector businesses that runs >flawlessly, and that includes the free lunch program run by schools and >largely funded by the federal government. I don't believe anyone >running such a program could satisfy every critic's demand that only the >*truly needy* (is there just one definition of truly needy?) be served. I would think ethics more than politics. The education system should promote ethical behavior and allowing individuals to cheat the system IMO does not follow that line of reasoning. In the US we seem to equate X number dollars to the term needy. This is true in the free lunch program also and remember this was just a provable example of waste and fraud in the education system. It could also be applied to educating illegal immigrants. Everyone knows it goes on and that it takes tax dollars from legitimate citizens, yet by tolerance the behavior is further encouraged. A few million here and there until it is finally realized the cost is too great. >TC>My guess would be closer to 25 % in this area. That too is just a uess. >TC>I would opt for a simpler solution than doing a study. Tie the free >TC>lunch to the child's social security number and pump it into the IRS's >TC>computer as income. The truly poor will not be flagged. The thieves in >TC>the system could be flagged and required to reimburse the system. CB>Interesting idea. I'm not sure of it's feasibility, but it is a >suggestion that might be worth looking into. Now, if only all of the >people who lie on their free lunch application will just report all >income (even cash) on their 1040's, we'll have the problem knocked. ;-) Now why did you have to bring us back to reality :) ___ X QMPro 1.53 X a (uA4+o++WJ!u2M j!O+!h <++o |+iLA :+oN .2oc_ oUaB)++iEe --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: North East Texas Datalink (1:3819/128) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00032 Date: 05/15/96 From: TOM COTTON Time: 08:04am \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 3 times) Subj: National Curriculum SK>-> SK>Stating what students should learn, in a national curriculum, and >-> then >holding them accountable for it by testing them on it...I just >-> don't see >the booby traps there. Could you please elaborate on it >-> without the >analogies? SK>-> Since I understand the analogies he offers I will give you an A mil spec is a standard that must be met by a supplier. Setting this standard may in fact create a product that is not of the highest possible quality for the $$$$ spent. A National Curriculum by design would probably be dumbed down to accommodate the lesser academically inclined students. The result could be that districts who must only meet this minimum standard would be overly generic. While it is nice to believe that teachers would be able to hold a high standard in the education process I have seen little in the current methodology to indicate that is the case. SK>I'm sorry, but this is just a bit too "Big Brother" for me to buy. I'll give you one small example for the believe it or not. To my limited knowledge no history books used in the schools today inform students that OUR government used soldiers as lab rats in nuclear above ground testing even after they knew what the results would be. The freedom of information act brought this to light many years ago. Now for the hypothetical, if tomorrow definite proof of extraterrestrials was discovered would it be surpressed ? What if it was proven without a doubt the aides virus could be transmitted by mosquitos ? Information is surpressed all the time by our government, right down to the school district level. I understand the reasoning behind the surpression of information but can't say that I agree with it. A national curriculum as you and Charles envision I believe is one I could support. I am for raising the standards for education far above todays level. In addition I would like to see the US adopt a modified version of the european style of education system. Teachers would find out about these things >on their own and be free to include them in their classroom instruction >as they deemed appropriate (a good argument in favor of teacher >tenure!). By your statement IMO it would be a pretty good argument against teacher tenure. We all bring our bias to the floor and as educators need to limit our personal input into the educational process. SK>I'm having trouble imagining what these remarkable new developments >would be, but....in the interest of discussion I will assume it could >happen and offer the above scenario as an appropriate way of dealing >with it. SK>I think one problem in this discussion, is a misunderstanding amongst >all the participants of what a "National Curriculum" would be. You, Tom, >seem to be interpreting it as some sort of "limiting" list of topics, >where teachers would not be allowed to teach anything not on the >approved National Curriculum list? Given your proximity to Texas, I'm >not surprised, as I understand that is the way a great deal of >instruction in Texas operates. IMHO that is bad news, and I dont' think >most of the teachers here are interpreting it that way (Chuck, your >thoughts?). I believe the teachers see such a National Curriculum as a >minimal list of topics which teachers would be allowed to supplement and >add to as appropriate. I also believe that most discussions on a >National Curriculum that I have read, advocate a reasonable amount of >flexibility for local control. In defense of Texas which I know little about educationally. They probably have fallen victim to the teach to a test syndrome as their livelihood depends on the performance of their students. SK>BTW, having seen Dave's response, I don't think you are representing his >POV. I was not aware I was attempting to represent Dave's POV. I gave an opinion which I believe was my POV. I only pointed out that I understand the mil spec idea which seem to confuse you. ___ X QMPro 1.53 X a (uA4+o++WJ!u2M j!O+!h <++o |+iLA :+oN .2oc_ oUaB)++iEe --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: North East Texas Datalink (1:3819/128) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00033 Date: 05/14/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 09:49pm \/To: RON MCDERMOTT (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: SOCIAL PROMOTION RM> While I agree in principle, there IS one distinct difference RM> in that sports participation is voluntary (and please don't RM> let's change this to gym class), whereas academics are not. RM> Don't misunderstand, I find nothing wrong with the concept RM> of the best rising to the top in ANY endeavor, but I also RM> appreciate the legitimate concerns for kids who have never RM> really had ANY success, praise, etc... Surely you would have RM> appreciated a pat on the back once in awhile in gym, no? No. Being the last kid picked when team captains picked teams taught me that I might find other forms of recreation better suited to me, and concentrating on them was better than being given a false sense of self-esteem in physical sports. As the smallest runt in the class, I didn't feel slighted by not being a "success" in gym! --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00034 Date: 05/14/96 From: MATT SMITH Time: 10:01pm \/To: SHEILA KING (Read 4 times) Subj: Re: Engineers vs. Physicists SK> -> suggest, some engineering students are motivated largely by the SK> -> promise of good jobs. SK> SK> This has indeed always been my impression, because when I ask my good SK> calculus students what they want to major in, a very large percentage SK> will reply "engineering". I guess it is only practical to consider SK> coming out with a degree at the end that can earn $$$, The high price of college tuition, together with the heavy financing of it by the _students_ through loans (as opposed to parents paying for college as a generation earlier), means that bright students are more likely to see things this way than ever. Various studies have found that student-loan debt is affecting everything from home-mortgage affordability to purchasing patterns by grads, so why shouldn't the student think of his earning prospects? --- Simplex BBS (v1.07.00Beta [DOS]) * Origin: NighthawkBBS, Burlington NC 910-228-7002 HST Dual (1:3644/6) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 265 EDUCATOR Ref: D5K00035 Date: 05/15/96 From: DONNA RANSDELL Time: 07:09am \/To: MATT SMITH (Read 3 times) Subj: groups:hetro vs. homo > This is a major problem in education at all > levels, from kindergarten through college. Programs > are adopted virtually nationwide before anyone bothers > to see if they even work. Also, the teachers are trained to teach these programs while they are supposed to be implementing them in their classrooms - rather than before implementing them. I think that's backwards, especially if there are no good manuals for teaching it. I was involved in this situation when whole language started coming in, in the late 80s. I was told to use whole language, but not given any manuals or training in it beforehand. It was all OJT. I felt inadequate...fortunately I usually went back to my original way of doing things, until I understood what I was doing. As soon as I understood what I was doing, I still didn't use it. (I am NOT a proponent of whole language.) :) -donna --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: I touch the future; I teach. (1:202/211)