--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100006Date: 05/15/98 From: HARVEY A. SMITH Time: 09:19pm \/To: MICK JAMES (Read 0 times) Subj: Universal Atonement -> God is longsuffering towards his elect before their conversion awaiti -> for the time when he will regeneration them and they will savingly -> repent and believe the gospel. -> Nahhhh, the Word of God does not state this. Quote chapter and verse. You once accused me of humanistic replies. What are you doing? you just answer without any proofs of scripture to back up what you are saying. Perhaps you don't have any. However, it is noteworthy that you believe obedience to be an act of works and therefore not valid to salvation. However above, you state the very obedience i was referring to, "when he will regeneration them and they will savingly repent and believe the gospel" However, you got it all backwards for sure. Regeneration comes with the obedience to the Gospel, and repentance. There is no other formula in scripture. Again you state things you cannot prove by scripture. Just off the wall. -> HAS>Again another straw man Mick. Everybody is not going to be saved -> HAS>resent you attempting to make that statement as though it is mine -> -> Well if God is not willing that any perish and the any is the whole -> creation then the context is clear that he cannot come back until all -> are saved. That is the thrust of Peter's argument in the beginning of -> the chapter. Remember he is answering the question as to why Jesus is -> taking so long to come back. -> -> HAS>I find it amusing that in one breath you attack Armininiast doctr -> HAS>and now change your attack to Universalists. Why not stay on sub -> Because in essence they are saving the same thing. The only differenc -> is the universalist does not limit the power of Christis death as you -> Arminians do. Nahhh, i don't believe you even comprehend Arminist doctrine. You seem to be a false witness for sure. However i bring to your attention a scripture found in Matt 7:21. Not all that say Lord Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but he that does the will of my father in heaven...... Another is found in Rom 10:9-13, in which one must be obedient and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. See Matt 19:28, Regeneration is for them who follow Jesus, not regeneration and then follow Jesus. Again Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to his mercy he saved us." How did he save us? Through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost which he shed upon us abundantly thorugh Jesus Christ our sAviour" Again regeneration did not come so we would accept Christ as savior but regeneration is the mode of cleansing when we accept Christ as savior. Anyway, i see what you are saying does not agree with scripture and you are enjoined by God to not add to His words nor detract from them, lest you be found a liar. There is no point in either giving you a platform for diatribes against other born again saints of God, simply because they believe every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God, and do not play games with it. I find those who are incapable of cleansing themselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit, usually buy into a cheap gospel, in which they can live in their liscentiousness, and still go to a church where there is no conviction....... Tsk Tsk --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: Messianic Jewish Computer Net #1 (1:138/323.14) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100007Date: 05/14/98 From: RANDG WOOD Time: 11:09am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: FRESH MANNA, Is 9:18 || |||||||| || How beautiful on the mountains || are the feet of those ... who || proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!" Pastor RALPH & GENE ANN WOOD --Isaiah 52:7 (NIV) E-mail: randg.wood@encode.com FRESH MANNA, 14/05/1998 ............................. ISAIAH 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. --ISAIAH 9:18 (KJV) A large forest fire makes its own weather. Here, Isaiah gives an accurate scientific description of the formation of what is called a "convection column". In Davis' textbook, "Forest Fire Control And Use", George M. Byram tells of its power and might: "Over major fires and over fires to which one would be most likely to apply the term blowup (because of the sudden and often unexpected buildup of turbulent energy) there is a well- developed convection column which may extend high in the atmosphere. Large fires exhibiting extreme fire behavior have convection columns with white water-vapor caps reaching a height of 25,000 feet or more. Since about 70 per cent of the total mass of the atmosphere is below this level, these fires have literally pierced the atmosphere. They are truly three- dimensional phenomena and have storm characteristics like other disturbances in the atmosphere." [P. 94.] Later, Byram describes what a blowup is all about. He has photographs of two types of convection column. He describes the winds generated, and the jumps a big fire can make from a burning area to an unburned area of "fresh fuel". You may be assured you don't want to see one! And yet we play with the turbulent fire of "wickedness", every day. Strong's Concordance says the Hebrew word used here means, "wrong (espec. moral)". The KJV translates a closely related word as, "iniquity". The RSV has a footnote, here: "Moral decay consumes like a forest fire". Calvin paraphrases, this fire is "the wrath of God", though "their own sins are the fans by which it is inflamed and that those sins supply the fuel, and that even themselves are consumed by the inward fire of their crimes." This fire takes over not just individuals, but nations, if moral sin is allowed to kindle unchecked. Isaiah's image of the out of control monster-- the fearsome forest fire, its mighty convection column-- clearly portrays what can happen, not just in ancient Israel, but in modern nations which condone private immorality, or its flagrant public display. Nations, take note! --RLW --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0313 * Origin: Encode Online Orillia,Ont.705-327-7629 (1:229/107) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100008Date: 05/15/98 From: RANDG WOOD Time: 10:26am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: FRESH MANNA, 2 Tim 2:15e4 || |||||||| || How beautiful on the mountains || are the feet of those ... who || proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!" Pastor RALPH & GENE ANN WOOD --Isaiah 52:7 (NIV) E-mail: randg.wood@encode.com FRESH MANNA, 14/05/1998 ........................ 2 TIMOTHY 2:15e4 Be diligent to present yourself to God, "approved":-- a worker who has no need to be ashamed, CUTTING STRAIGHT the word of truth. --2 TIMOTHY 2:15 (RLW) The interpretation of the very first word of 2 TIMOTHY 2:15, "SPOUDASON", gives us an excellent example of "cutting straight". The KJV translates "SPOUDASON" as, "Study"; modern versions, "Be diligent". Hmm. What -does- this word mean, in the Greek? When you begin "cutting straight" a passage of Scripture, the second thing to consider is the vertical dimension:-- what are the meanings of the words used in the original language? I.e., what did the Holy Spirit inspire the Biblical writer to say? Let us see how various resources help us learn what "SPOUDASON" means! N.B.:-- Do remember that the KJV, and related translations and resources, follow the "Textus Receptus", an early edition of the Greek New Testament. Modern translations, and related resources, follow modern editions of the Greek NT, based on a broader range of Greek manuscripts. Over centuries of copying by hand, the old Greek manuscripts came to differ somewhat from each other. Thus, you will find places where old and new versions of the Bible just disagree on what the original Greek actually said. When you find such places, we'd suggest the modern versions may be correct. In 2 TIMOTHY 2:15 however, the old and new editions of the Greek are identical; so that issue is not a problem here in this verse! What -is- a problem, is that this Fresh Manna is written for people who likely haven't studied Greek, and don't have the same resources a pastor would have. The -good- news is that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to the KJV overcomes this problem for you! We'll give this example in terms of the -book-; however, computer software, or Bible study Web site search engines, are quicker and easier to use, if you have them available. So, take your KJV Bible and look up 2 TIMOTHY 2:15. You will find it begins, "STUDY to shew thyself approved". Now, take your (KJV-based) Strong's Concordance, and look up the word, "STUDY". In Strong's, we find 3 verses listed where "study" is used in the KJV. Beside the entry for "2Ti 2:15" is the number "*4704". The asterisk tells us the word is translated -differently- in the RV; "4704" in italics tells us this word is listed in Strong's Greek Dictionary (at the back of Strong's Concordance), as Greek word number 4704. Now, go to the back of the book, to the "Dictionary Of The Greek Testament" (i.e., the Textus Receptus, which the KJV follows). Look up Greek word 4704. You may not read Greek, but you -can- read the Arabic numerals! Here, you will find that the infinitive form of this verb is, "SPOUDAZW", and that it means, "to USE SPEED, i.e. to MAKE EFFORT, BE PROMPT or EARNEST:--". If you look at the related words, 4705-4710, you will find some of them mean, "prompt, energetic, earnest"; "more earnestly, very promptly"; "more prompt, more earnest"; "more speedily, sooner"; "earnestly, promptly"; and "speed, i.e. ... despatch, eagerness, earnestness". Sounds pretty "diligent", to me! If you used Bauer/Arndt & Gingrich's "Greek-English Lexicon", you'd find -it- shows that SPOUDAZW means:-- "(1) hasten, hurry; (2) be zealous or eager, take pains, make every effort". I.e., much the same as what Strong's Dictionary says this word means. And similarly, B/AG show those related words we mentioned above, as meaning, "eager, zealous, earnest, diligent, eagerly intent"; "(1) with haste, with special urgency; (2) diligently, earnestly, zealously, strongly, eagerly"; "(1) haste, speed; (2) eagerness, earnestness, diligence, zeal; good will, devotion; effort". This is enlightening; but you have -other- resources available to you-- other translations made by other New Testament scholars. So, now, compare as many translations of this verse as you can, and see how -they- translate "SPOUDASON", in 2 TIMOTHY 2:15. Here are some examples: ============================================== Bible Version(s) SPOUDASON ---------------------------------------------- KJV ..................... Study ASV, ROBERTSON's ........ Give diligence NKJV, NAS, YOUNG's ...... Be diligent DARBY ................... Strive diligently RSV, NIV, GNB ........... Do your best WEYMOUTH ................ Earnestly seek BARCLAY's commentary .... Put out every effort KNOX'S ENGLISH VULGATE .. Aim first at ---------------------------------------------- Here we see that all of these except the KJV, including those which are KJV revisions, translate the word, "SPOUDASON" in ways meaning, "Be diligent", rather than, "Read many books". Sounds like the majority view is clearly in favour of "diligence"! Ok! Now let's consult Bible commentaries! Take as many good commentaries as you have, and see what they have to say about the meaning of "SPOUDASON" in 2 TIMOTHY 2:15. Some don't mention it. Those which do, clearly take "SPOUDASON" to mean "Be diligent". Indeed, Guthrie even specifies, "SPOUDAZW contains the notion of persistent `zeal' which STUDY misses". That sums it up. --RLW --- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0313 * Origin: Encode Online Orillia,Ont.705-327-7629 (1:229/107) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100009Date: 05/17/98 From: MICK JAMES Time: 03:58pm \/To: HARVEY A. SMITH (Read 0 times) Subj: Universal Atonement 1/2 HAS>-> God is longsuffering towards his elect before their conversion awaiti HAS>-> for the time when he will regeneration them and they will savingly HAS>-> repent and believe the gospel. HAS>-> HAS>Nahhhh, the Word of God does not state this. Quote chapter and verse. HAS>You once accused me of humanistic replies. What are you doing? you HAS>just answer without any proofs of scripture to back up what you are HAS>saying. Perhaps you don't have any. HAS>However, it is noteworthy that you believe obedience to be an act of HAS>works and therefore not valid to salvation. However above, you state HAS>the very obedience i was referring to, "when he will regeneration them HAS>and they will savingly repent and believe the gospel" However, you got HAS>it all backwards for sure. Regeneration comes with the obedience to the HAS>Gospel, and repentance. There is no other formula in scripture. Again HAS>you state things you cannot prove by scripture. Just off the wall. I gave a clear exegesis of the passage to show that Peter is not talking about all men else Christ is not coming back to all men are saved. HAS>Nahhh, i don't believe you even comprehend Arminist doctrine. You seem HAS>to be a false witness for sure. However i bring to your attention a HAS>scripture found in Matt 7:21. Not all that say Lord Lord shall enter HAS>the Kingdom, but he that does the will of my father in heaven...... HAS>Another is found in Rom 10:9-13, in which one must be obedient and call HAS>upon the name of the Lord to be saved. HAS>See Matt 19:28, Regeneration is for them who follow Jesus, not HAS>regeneration and then follow Jesus. HAS>Again Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness that we have done but HAS>according to his mercy he saved us." How did he save us? HAS>Through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost which HAS>he shed upon us abundantly thorugh Jesus Christ our sAviour" HAS>Again regeneration did not come so we would accept Christ as savior but HAS>regeneration is the mode of cleansing when we accept Christ as savior. HAS>Anyway, i see what you are saying does not agree with scripture and you HAS>are enjoined by God to not add to His words nor detract from them, lest HAS>you be found a liar. HAS>There is no point in either giving you a platform for diatribes against HAS>other born again saints of God, simply because they believe every word HAS>that proceeded out of the mouth of God, and do not play games with it. HAS>I find those who are incapable of cleansing themselves from the HAS>filthiness of the flesh and spirit, usually buy into a cheap gospel, in HAS>which they can live in their liscentiousness, and still go to a church HAS>where there is no conviction....... Tsk Tsk A dead men can do nothing until life is given to him. Regeneration of the dead spirit of man mucst precede the acts of repentance and faith. Faith is a gift of God, Phil 1:29, Eph 2:8-9 and a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 so how can one dead in sin exercise a spiritual gift? We read in Romans 3:24 that we are justified FREELY. The word freely is "dorean" and it means "without a cause" such as "they hated me without a cause". Just as the Pharisees hated Jesus for nothing in Him so God justified us from nothing in us including any act of obedience. we are told that life and immortality are brought to light NOT INTO BEING through the gospel. The gospel is not goat food but sheep food. It is to the elect of God whom he regenerates by the direct immediate operation of the Spirit. Then the sinner is prepared to hear the gospel and believe. Lest you ask for chapter and verse let me examine the text that clearly shows that there are no means whatsoever in the initial regeneration of the elect. The text in question is John 3 speaking of being born of the Spirit. Lets look at these verses and see if that in fact is what is being said. Well whatever Jesus was talking about it was something Nicodemus, as the teacher of Israel, should have known. Look at verse 10 "art thou THE (the definite article is used in the greek) master of Israel and knowest not these things?" Now whatever Jesus meant it had to be something that Nicodemus AS THE MASTER IN ISRAEL should have known. He could not have been talking about "the washing of water by the word" Eph. 5:26 as some say because I don't think Nicodemus had read the book of Ephesians. What does that have to do with it you ask? That would have to rule out everything except that which was prophesised in the Old Testament in reference to the New Covenant. What was he referring to? Well it couldn't have been baptism for at least 2 reasons taken right from the text. First, the only knowledge Nicodemus would have had about baptism would be through John the Baptist's baptism of repentance. But that would have nothing to do with him being the master of Israel. Secondly look at verse 8 "The wind blows where it willeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: SO IS everyone who is born of the Spirit" or literally in the greek "so is every single one having been and in a state of being (its a perfect participle) begotten of the Spirit". Notice just as the winds origin is unknown and it's presence is unknown except by the effects SO IS everyone having been born of the Spirit. Well if the spiritual birth comes at baptism or at sprinkling then WE WOULD KNOW WHEN AND WHERE IT ORIGINATED! The only thing we know of this spiritual birth is the effects it produces in a converted life. No baptism, no sinners prayer, no walking and aisle or an altar call can produce this. It is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit! This brings us to what Jesus was referring to. In Ezekeil 36 we read a promise of the New Covenant. In verse 25 we read "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you an heart of flesh." Now in case you think the sprinkling is baptism let show 2 reasons why it is not. 1) Sprinkling is an entirely different word in the New Testament than baptism. If God wanted to say sprinkle he would have said "rhantize" which is the word sprinkle. (We get our word "rain" from it.) 2) God is doing the sprinkling clearly showing the symbolism. This is speaking of regeneration which the sinner is entirely passive. That is why the word "must" in John 3:7 is an indicative not an imperative. This regeneration is God's work on the dead spirit of a sinner that brings him to life. The evidence (like the blowing of the leaves is to the wind) is a life of repentance, faith and holiness. Regeneration, like the wind, is only known by it's effects! This, I believe, is the clear teaching of Jesus's words to Nicodemus. If anyone disagrees then please show me where I am wrong. I will listen since I desire to know truth, but please show me scripturally not humanistic or deductive reasoning. Keep in mind these 3 points when exegeting these verses in John 3. >>> Continued to next message --- * SLMR 2.1a * As many as were ordained to eternal life believed --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: The Mad House (1:107/360.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100010Date: 05/17/98 From: MICK JAMES Time: 03:58pm \/To: HARVEY A. SMITH (Read 0 times) Subj: Universal Atonement 2/2 >>> Continued from previous message 1) Nicodemus as the master in Israel should have known what was talked about. 2) The person born of the spirit is like the wind in it's sovereign operation and it's effects. 3) Jesus wasn't making a command in verse 7 but an indicative statement. Now if you can give me an explanation keeping those 3 points in mind I would welcome a comment. For the cause of God and truth..... Mick James S.S. An Ambassador for Christ * ***** * * "ek autou kai di autou kai eis auton ta panta auto he doxa eis tous aionas amen" sinner.saved@juno.com --- * SLMR 2.1a * As many as were ordained to eternal life believed --- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 * Origin: The Mad House (1:107/360.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100011Date: 05/04/98 From: ROBBY DITTMANN Time: 11:08am \/To: CHARLIE RAY (Read 0 times) Subj: The Arminian christ CR> God reprobates according to His secret will or divine CR> decrees. He doesn't CR> reprobate because He is unable to save the wicked. He CR> reprobates some and CR> elects others according to His divine choice which is secret to us until CR> after the fact. The point I'm making is that whether you are Calvinist or Arminian, you must admit that God limits himself as to who he will save. Therefore it is unfair for Calvinists to say that Arminians limit the power of God. Robby --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Red Shift BBS, Home of Mamoosoft! ... (770) 979-9467 (1:133/8003) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100012Date: 05/04/98 From: ROBBY DITTMANN Time: 11:10am \/To: CHARLIE RAY (Read 0 times) Subj: The Arminian christ CR> Romans 6 is not a problem for the Calvinist view and neither is 1 CR> Corinthians 10:12. We all need to be warned and even disciplined. And CR> some who think they are saved have never been truly saved so we need to CR> walk before the Lord carefully and humbly. So you agree that one can fall from grace? Because if they "have never been truly saved", what are they falling from? Robby --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Red Shift BBS, Home of Mamoosoft! ... (770) 979-9467 (1:133/8003) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 262 INT. BIBLE STUDY Ref: FA100013Date: 05/04/98 From: ROBBY DITTMANN Time: 11:14am \/To: RANDG WOOD (Read 0 times) Subj: Repentance RW> In this way, this passage resolves the apparent RW> dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism. God's election RW> includes both grace, or "power" to respond and be saved, -and- RW> grace, or "permission" to use our fallen will and resist if we RW> really insist on it. Before I respond, I need to clarify what you are saying. I believe that you are stating that God predestines the elect, but they have the ability to refuse. Is that right? Robby --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Red Shift BBS, Home of Mamoosoft! ... (770) 979-9467 (1:133/8003)