--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00005Date: 07/18/97 From: TY MEISSNER Time: 01:59am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: our toxic environment On 07-12-97 04:17, Jane Kelley typed to Ty Meissner regarding: => our toxic environment <= Hello Jane, TM> Its time we put a stop to having K-12 environmental curiculea TM> designed by chemical industry PR people. JK> First of all, we the people have to take our country back. A bit hard JK> when the nation is flooded with one mind altering drug or another. JK> First it was Heroin, then cocaine, and now we are seeing more and more JK> marijuna used by kids. Come on Jane, can you REALLY blame our troubles on the 5 million illegal drug users ? Or the 70 million adults who according to Gen McCaffrey smoke marijuana ? You are right that serious drug users aren't usually politically active, unless you include booze. But I don't think their political behavior is the source of our problems. More likely some of them use drugs because we as a society, have a very bad record when it comes to solving peoples problems. Take homelessness for example. Were I homeless, I would be powerfully motivated to anethesize my pain with alcohol or drugs. Not all homeless addicts became addicts before becoming homeless. Lets not overlook the fact that a large number of homeless addicts have arrived at that status by way of their experiences in the service of the government that turned its back on them when they returned from Vietnam. Without doing a scientific survey I couldn't presume to know WHY kids today are using the drugs they use. I do know this, though. When we had music and arts and sports and other extracurricular activities to occupy us, as when I went to school in the 40s and 50s, most of us were too busy to experiment with drugs. Today, nearly all of those programs have been ended because voters didn't want to pay for them and corporate tax breaks too. Something had to go, but it was NOT corporate tax breaks. Corporations paid around 400% greater taxes in the 40s - 60s than they do today. So as a result of our greed, kids (who aren't allowed to vote) no longer have music, arts, sports, in most but the most wealthy elite suburban schools. In the words of a professional drug dealer speaking to community leaders, "When your kids are out on the streets, we're there, but you aren't. When kids get in trouble they come to us because we're there and you aren't." Its true. Except for the drug dealers, most adults have turned their backs on children or see them only as potential miscreants. Many physisican organizations, including those at NIH, feel that drug abuse would be far better reduced by using the harm reduction model instead of the punitive and costly criminal justice model. We are making big progress when we can begin to hold corporate America accountable, as with the tobacco industry. I know that my viewpoint is particularly irritating to some folks (as reflected by their comments that I should stick to herbs and potions) but I firmly believe that PREVENTION is *just as important* a part of medicine, be it orthodox or alternative, as treatment. I understand why this viewpoint is greeted with hostility. None of us want to give up our bad habits, let alone addictions. None of us want to change our possibly unhealthy lifestyles. And it seems to be an almost universal trait, that when bad news is recieved, the first one punished, ALWAYS, is the messenger. Part of that prevention is to reduce the amount of BAD STUFF we put into our mouths, like foods soaked in saturated fats or foods with traces of neurotoxins in or on it, or the foods fertilized with toxic and radioactive wastes. That's why I think its CRITICAL that any homemaker with small children' buy only organic produce and meats, and avoid processed foods with chemical additives and preservatives. The actions of these toxins is far more profound in children than adults. Ty Ty Meissner E-MAIL: Ty.meissner@grape.net I will sleep and dream like the air, and move like the wind, with assion when it pleases me. The Universe is not up there... Its here, and we're in it, third rock out from the sun. -- Peter Spiro ... You've Seen One Redwood, You've Seen them All! R.Reagan --- QScan/PCB v1.16b / 01-0507 * Origin: The Electronic Grapevine [707] 257-2338 (1:161/910) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00006Date: 07/18/97 From: JASON HUFF Time: 01:44am \/To: ALEX VASAUSKAS (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Marijuana & prohibition AV> JH> I don't understand why people are locked up so long for possession AV> JH> of a controlled substance. Just for using drugs (and getting AV> JH> caught) you can get more time than murder, rape and an assortment AV> JH> of real crimes AV> So, at its simplest the answer to your question is not AV> completely, but very much: money and power. okay, i see where the power comes in from locking up possessors, but what about money. all i see is that it costs money to lock them up. could you explain a little further on that point for me? --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: DiGiTaL OnLiNe MaGaZiNe - [409]8Ext-237 (1:3811/350) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00007Date: 07/18/97 From: JASON HUFF Time: 01:46am \/To: BOB MOYLAN (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: A Drink Or 2 A Day Hi Bob, BM> JK> They are too easily blown away by what I can find in any current BM> JK> magazine, newspaper, TV program, or on my computer in Medline and BM> JK> other legitimate sources of medical information. BM> BM> That's the problem Jane. You give every appearance of not BM> comprehending what you read in those magazines or newspapers, what BM> you find on MEDLINE or any other "legitimate" source of medical BM> information. That also has been pointed out to you by others. I BM> don't doubt that you can find the stuff .. it's not difficult at all. BM> You simply don't understand it and compound your lack of BM> understanding by filtering it through your own narrow field of BM> training accomplished 50 years ago. I'd like to see her list these sources so that we could read them and see hat they say. Jason --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: DiGiTaL OnLiNe MaGaZiNe - [409]8Ext-237 (1:3811/350) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00008Date: 07/18/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 12:38am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana & Addiction Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: AV>Not surprisingly, you didn't relate any of your literature citations AV>to the issue we are discussing -- the addictiveness of marijuana. JK> I've told you several times to go look it up in the official manual JK> of mental health in this nation, the DSM IV. I don't mean to be unkind, but it is time to stop lying, Jane. I hope that everyone else on Fidonet reads this so that you cannot continue to harmfully lie and mislead people here about this herb. Based upon your own claims regarding DSM IV, this reply will demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about. I will even provide you with the quote from DSM IV that contradicts your representations, and I will give you the page number where you can find the quoted material. (You have repeatedly refused to do this in support of your claims -- evil shuns the light, eh Jane ;-) ) I have provided you with authoritative, scientific sources demonstrating that marijuana is not addictive -- with the worst scenario in this regard being according to the NIDA's scientists, and they conclude only that it is not as addictive to those who use it as is caffeine to those who drink coffee. In spite of this, you repeatedly claim that marijuana is very addictive to a substantial number of those who use it. And, the only published authority you rely upon in support of this is DSM IV, which does not provide any rigorous, scientific discussion, evaluation, or citation to underlying scientific sources regarding addiction. You have been unable to cite any reliable scientific study or even any part of DSM IV in support of your claims. This is not surprising because there is no such scientific study, and there is no such determination in DSM IV. Moreover, DSM IV *nowhere uses the terms "addict" or "addiction" relative to the use of marijuana*. You either have not read DSM IV, or you didn't understand it. DSM IV is not a definitive handbook of the causes of people's problems. The full title of the book describes what it is about: _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders_. What DSM IV does is provide names and numbers for differing collections of people's behaviors and possible causes of those behaviors so that psychiatrists and other mental health workers can have common, short-hand terms and categories with which to communicate about and attempt to deal with groups of behaviors a patient/client may be exhibiting. It is for the most part merely a useful psychiatric catalog. DSM IV contains many cursory and incomplete statements regarding the statistics, facts, and science relevant to the causes for behaviors. It provides no citations to the sources for these statements. Furthermore, it was copyrighted in 1994, and so the results and implications of more recent studies relative to matters referred to in DSM IV have not been considered. The final destruction of your credibility here was done at your own hands. Like the destruction of other evils, your excess in promoting your reefer-madness lies has brought you down. It is not surprising that you have never cited any credible, scientific authority supporting your claims regarding the addictiveness of marijuana -- there is none, other than what appears to be your imaginary mental health nursing credentials and your imaginary horde of marijuana addicts. Furthermore, the only authority you have cited is DSM IV, and this is inappropriate for our discussion since its primary focus is naming syndromes rather than providing a rigorous scientific grounding in the basis for human behavior. In any event, DSM IV itself not only does not support your claims, it further exposes your reefer madness lies. There is no reference in DSM IV regarding cannabis being addictive. In fact, DSM IV specifically states (note that "Cannabis Dependence" is a psychiatric term-of-art that is used solely as a diagnostic label in DSM IV): "Individuals with Cannabis Dependence have compulsive use and do not generally develop physiological dependence.... There have also been some reports of withdrawal symptoms, but they have not yet been reliably shown to be clinically significant." DSM IV, 4th ed., American Psychiatric Assn. (Washington, D.C., 1994) p. 216. -- [This is a citation, Jane. It tells people specifically what a source says and gives them enough information to check it out for themselves. Notice the page number -- you provide this when you want others to be able to check out your representations. The fact that you have refused to provide anything like this was a major clue that you didn't know what you were talking about.] This means that people who are emotionally disturbed to the point where they seek to cope with life or to escape through using cannabis may abuse it or become dependent upon it as a means of coping or escape. But, this dependence is the result of their emotional disturbance (like becoming dependent on the confort of food and eating) and not the marijuana itself. Your web of lies is finally undone. If, according to your representation, you have testified in court as an expert (which seems unlikely) that marijuana is addictive to a substantial proportion of people who use it, or that DSM IV supports this conclusion, you have not only lied to everyone here on Fidonet, you have committed perjury in court. The authority you invoked to try to make yourself sound authoritative and to try to intimidate people, DSM IV, is neither the best authority on the issue of addiction nor does it support your claims -- it contradicts them. The much more meaningful scientific studies I have provided to you very authoritatively do the same. It's time to open your mind and give up your delusions and denial and your attempts to seduce and browbeat others into sharing them. But, even if you don't, hopefully others will now be better able to see through you. --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00009Date: 07/18/97 From: TED BARNES Time: 04:27pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Marijuana -=> Quoting Jane Kelley to Alex Vasauskas <=- JK> Then YOU explain WHY many of those who start out using alcohol and JK> marijuna switch to amphetamines and cocaine or other drugs and end up JK> in a psych ward by the time they are 20? Just to take the edge off here Jane, we were discussing this else where and someone else brought up a valid point. A large percentage of people that die, also eat pickles :) What does this mean? Nothing at all, no different then MJ. Why do people jump on MJ and alcohol first there are other dangerous drugs used long before these ones. Here is the list I know of Nicotine and cafiene both these are deadly if too much in injested at one time. Both of these are the most used addictive drugs in the world today. Difference is we don't take large doses at one time. Regarding drugs, most kids have sniffed solvents long before any other drugs. Thing is many of these people never went any futher. those that did, well what can we say?? Ted ... URA Redneck if your bumper sticker says "My other car is a combine". ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- Renegade v5-11 Exp * Origin: Electric Prayers - Guelph ON - 519-823-8392 (1:221/802) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00010Date: 07/17/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 07:08am \/To: TY MEISSNER (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: Marijuana & children TM> JK> Those who use marijuana for medicinal, religious, or recreational use TM> JK> are not responsible adults. They are under the influence of a mind TM> JK> altering drug. TM> You'd probabaly be surprised by the number of successful law TM> enforcement officers, lawyers, judges, doctors, dentists, bankers, TM> computer scientists, commodity traders, and NURSES who smoke pot now TM> and then, for recreational purposes. TM> Would you characterize them as irrsponsible ? I don't think so. I would. You can excuse their behavior away if you chose to, I've seen too much misery from this noxious weed over the past 30 years to believe otherwise. There are, for example, several members of one daughter's high school class who died before graduation in auto accidents......the result of the difference in the immediate withdrawal of pot and alcohol in a speeding car around 2-3 am. Then the kids in the old King County Jail and the North Rehabilitation Facility come to mind who we couldn't get out of bed in the morning for breakfast. They were still in the acute stages of withdrawal from pot when arrested. Anyone who knows that these things are possible from the use of the stuff and who goes on and ingests it has no respect from me at all. I've listened to too many addicts over the years who have made it to recovery from the damn stuff to believe anyone else on this subject. * SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? - JetMail v1.20*6 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire --- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3 * Origin: PEACHY KEENO INN BBS * Tacoma,Wa * (206)539-0804 (1:138/190.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00011Date: 07/13/97 From: LAURENT DE FONTENAY Time: 08:40pm \/To: ALL (Read 1 times) Subj: Mentol and sterility Hi All! I have heard say, that mentol (e.g. in cigarets) can cause sterility in men. Is this true? It is afterall a widely marketed product. Stay well! Laurent Fido : 5:7102/111.2 - Internet : laurent@dogwatch.iafrica.com .!. If you smoke After sex, you're doing it too fast! --- Terminate 4.00 * Origin: Laurie's Realm, Cape Town, South Africa (5:7102/111.2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00012Date: 07/13/97 From: LAURENT DE FONTENAY Time: 08:47pm \/To: DALE LANE (Read 1 times) Subj: ?ZEN Hi Dale! On Monday, 7 July 1997, 02:02:40, Dale Lane wrote to All: DL> the position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and DL> not one. This is the most important teaching:not two ,and not one. DL> Our body and mind are not two , and not one. If you think your body DL> and mind are two ,that is wrong. If you think that they are one , DL> that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one . We DL> usually think that if something is not one , it is more than one. DL> If it is not singular , it is plural . But in actual experience , DL> our life is not only plural but also singular. Each of us is both DL> dependent and independent. After some years we will die. If we DL> think this will be the end of our life , this will be the wrong DL> understanding. But, on the other hand,if we think that we do not DL> die, this is also wrong. We die and we do not die. This is the DL> right understanding. from "ZEN MIND, BEGINNER'S MIND" what do you DL> think ? I'd say there's a lot of truth in that. The body and mind, though separate, cannot be separated. But no mention has been made of the soul, which is the part that doesn't die. Body and mind are perishable, soul is not. But I don't subscribe to Zen philosophy, although I find it interesting. What I've said comes from my Christian experience of life. I'd like to continue this conversation with you, although I'm not sure this is the place for it. Feel free to contact me via netmail if you feel like it! Stay well! Laurent Fido : 5:7102/111.2 - Internet : laurent@dogwatch.iafrica.com .!. Hell hath no fury like the lawyer of a woman scorned. --- Terminate 4.00 * Origin: Laurie's Realm, Cape Town, South Africa (5:7102/111.2) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00013Date: 07/19/97 From: SUE SMITH Time: 12:17am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: A.D.D MP> All a waste of money and hope. MP> MP> You are free to try what you want, and I suggest you do that. You ma MP> get some suggestions from various people. Try their ideas. MP> MP> Just, do not get your hopes up. Thanks for the support. I understand that eventually they are suppose to outgrow this stuff. I hope so as I just hate drugs period. Thanks again for your input. sue --- TriToss (tm) 10.0 - #0 * Origin: The Swamp BBS *352-546-4739* 24 hour free Access (1:365/44) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBP00000Date: 07/18/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 09:27pm \/To: JASON HUFF (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: A Drink Or 2 A Day JASON HUFF was thinking about Re: A Drink Or 2 A Day and keyed into cyberspace: JH>Hi Bob, JH> JH>BM> JK> They are too easily blown away by what I can find in any JH>BM> JK> current magazine, newspaper, TV program, or on my computer JH>BM> JK> in Medline and other legitimate sources of medical JH>BM> information. JH>BM> That's the problem Jane. You give every appearance of not JH>BM> comprehending what you read in those magazines or newspapers, JH>BM> what you find on MEDLINE or any other "legitimate" source of JH>BM> medical information. That also has been pointed out to you by JH>BM> others. I don't doubt that you can find the stuff .. it's not JH>BM> difficult at all. You simply don't understand it and compound JH>BM> your lack of understanding by filtering it through your own JH>BM> narrow field of training accomplished 50 years ago. JH>I'd like to see her list these sources so that we could read them and JH>see what they say. She has done that in ADHD on a few occasions. Then, when shown where she mis-interpreted what was written, she does her usual bit. She takes as controlling one study, even though it has been refuted by dozens. FYI, she still thinks that the Feingold Diet is effective for true ADHD. It cannot be, but she does not seem to understand it. Don't hold your breath. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110)