--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBL00004Date: 07/16/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 09:02pm \/To: JASON HUFF (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana & prohibition Hello Jeff: Jason Huff wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: AV> If you must, deal with the irresponsible adults as being child abusers. AV> Provide the death penalty for anyone who provides marijuana to AV> a child. Don't criminalize and lock up responsible adults for AV> using marijuana as a medicinal, religious, or recreational herb. JH> I don't understand why people are locked up so long for possession JH> of a controlled substance. Just for using drugs (and getting JH> caught) you can get more time than murder, rape and an assortment JH> of real crimes Any answer that would fit here would probably oversimplify the issues involved. But, the forces underlying the current prohibition hysteria come in large part from greed and lust for power. In the context of medicine and alternative medicine, the established, mainstream medical and drug manufacturing interests would rather have medicinal herbs and alternative treatments be discounted if not restricted or prohibited because these substances and treatments cut into profits and respect for established medical authority, whether or not they are deserving of that respect. Prohibition has helped government grow, become more powerful, and has been very lucrative for it. Consequently, there is a substantial interest in demonizing marijuana and other substances to justify more prisons, more military, more police -- more government and more government control. Also, the United States has Puritanical and christian roots (making this what is called by some sociologists a "Apollonian" culture), and consequently pleasure-seeking and intoxication are not generally considered to be respectable or desireable activities. Of course, there are "Dionysian" cultures in which consuming intoxicating substances "medicinally" or "spiritually" to occasionally get out of one's head for emotionally cathartic, stress-relieving, or religious purposes is acceptable and expected. But, our fundamentally Apollonian culture opposes this kind of behavior, and this results in many people being afraid and suspicious of such Dionysian behavior, in others, and doing what they can to restrict, prohibit, and penalize it. Politicians and religious leaders have also found that they can make political hay with prohibition, demonizing those who use intoxicating substances, and leading a righteous "war" to crush these enemies. These politicians and religious leaders have learned the lessons of "practical politics", as described by H.L. Mencken, and put them to use for their own profit and power: "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken So, at its simplest the answer to your question is not completely, but very much: money and power. Oh yes... there are some people with apparently altruistic motives who feel that they know better than others how those others should live their lives. These altruists believe that it is better for those others to be put in prison for their own good rather than to be permitted to reap the consequences or benefits of the decisions the others might choose to make with their own lives. It's wonderful having such neighbors looking out for your best interests, isn't it? --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBL00005Date: 07/16/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 09:45pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: A Drink Or 2 A Day Jane Kelley (On 11 Jul 97) was overheard expounding to Bob Moylan JK> I AM NOW FIRMLY CONVINCED THAT YOU ARE BOTH A RABBLE ROUSER AND JK> SOMEONE WHO HAS ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD AT ALL FOR ANY IDEAS WHICH JK> ORIGINATE OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN BRAIN. Quite the contrary Jane. I have no difficulty with any original ideas. You, on the other hand, seem to be incapable of any original thought. You are not able or willing to answer any direct question. You are not able to focus on one subject at a time. In fact you are very consistent in your inconsistency. You persist in denying that you have said something even when presented with the evidence of your own words. JK> As such, you are dangerous. I am dangerous only to someone like you Jane who continually throws out the most ludicrous statements and then takes great offense when someone, anyone, disagrees with what you have said. JK> You have refused to acknowledge my posts regarding what you consider JK> to be a lie, instead you have chosen to keep on with your diatribe. Your reasoning gives every appearance of being nearly totally flawed. I not only acknowledged your post, at one point I asked for clarification that you declined to provide. You attempted to backtrack and waffle saying you didn't say what you had indeed said. - you were caught in it - JK> I have no respect for you or your opinions at all, Bob. Jane I can think of no Fido echo that you post in where you have garnered any respect from any of the other participants. In at least one they have been much less polite in their comments than I have been in this one. JK> They are too easily blown away by what I can find in any current JK> magazine, newspaper, TV program, or on my computer in Medline and JK> other legitimate sources of medical information. That's the problem Jane. You give every appearance of not comprehending what you read in those magazines or newspapers, what you find on MEDLINE or any other "legitimate" source of medical information. That also has been pointed out to you by others. I don't doubt that you can find the stuff .. it's not difficult at all. You simply don't understand it and compound your lack of understanding by filtering it through your own narrow field of training accomplished 50 years ago. JK> 'Bye. Oh... I don't think so ... Education means developing the mind not stuffing the memory --- PPoint 2.03 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBL00006Date: 07/17/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 11:49am \/To: ALEX VASAUSKAS (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana & Addicti [1/3 AV>Not surprisingly, you didn't relate any of your literature citations AV>to the issue we are discussing -- the addictiveness of marijuana. I've told you several times to go look it up in the official manual of mental health in this nation, the DSM IV. AV>What you have demonstrated is that mental health is in a sorry state AV>if there are mental health workers who have blind-spots like yours. We still have those who cling to old fashioned ideas such as those spouted by Freud and Skinner in a day when brain imaging is being used for a definitive diagnosis by those who really give a damn. AV>The familiar literary character who comes to mind in this regard is AV>nurse Ratched from Ken Kesey's _One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest_. AV>Unfortunately, these purported professionals refuse to leave their AV>own problems at home, but go to work inflicting them on others. Exactly. Discovered some of them when I was a student nurse back in D.C., those who could easily be mistaken for patients at the time. The only outward difference that the students could see was that they ate in the employee cafeteria which was strictly off limits to all patients at the time. AV>Considering what you have claimed above to be the breadth of what you AV>are willing to consider in evaluating herbs and treatments, I am AV>surprised at your conclusions regarding cannabis, which are AV>contrary to the knowledge and evidence of "the ages" and of AV>contemporary research. The record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 AV>years of human experience. It is used daily by enormous numbers of AV>people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty AV>million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally, AV>use marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision AV>and without any problems. Contrary to your representations, the AV>"age old" and contemporary evidence is that marijuana is not AV>addictive and debilitating for everyone, or most, or many. If you call being unable to get out of bed until afternoon a joy and a delight, being wigged out to the point where it is impossible to think, and producing children with mild birth defects no problem, than I guess one could say that. On the other hand, if you consider that going to jail for the use of an illegal substance, not being able to keep up with the rest of the folks in matters such as holding a job or maintaining a decent relationship, then I can relate to that. If you also consider that the use of pot masks the worst symptoms of alcoholism in the early and middle stages of the disease then drops the person abruptly into the chronic phase with a very severe physical reaction, then I can also relate to that. As well as those I have talked to who made their first admit to a mental hospital by the age of 21 after multiple drug use. SOME FOLKS DO NOT GET ANY REAL BENEFIT FROM POT USE! And if you had even a fraction of real knowledge about this noxious weed instead of the hype put out by potheads, you would know that. --- SLMR 2.1a This tagline stolen by Silly Little Mail Reader! * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBM00000Date: 07/16/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:34pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: A.D.D JANE KELLEY was thinking about A.D.D and keyed into cyberspace: JK>MP>MB>Way back in the 1970's, my (then) 5-year-old daughter was JK>MP>MB>diagnosed as having "MDB" & hyperactivity-- later, they changed JK>MP>MB>the terminology to ADD & hyperactivity. The pediatrician JK>MP>MB>prescribed Ritalin and a psychologist informed us that our JK>MP>MB>child would not be able to function in school at all without JK>MP>MB>Ritalin and probably only in "special" schools even with it. JK>MP>Back in the 1970's the diagnostic methodology for what we now call JK>MP>ADHD was quite primitive. Many kids were mis-diagnosed. Heck, it JK>MP>even happens today. It is absolutely impossible that your daughter JK>MP>was mis-diagnosed? JK>IT is quite possible that you haven't the first clue, second guessing JK>from your armchair as you write. JK>MP>Also, even then, I would have classified your psychologist as not JK>MP>being too bright. I hope it learned something since then. JK>Just how should we classify the author of that remark? JK>MP>MB>We ended up not giving our child Ritalin, and we went ahead and JK>MP>MB>enrolled her in public schools. We didn't just ignore the JK>MP>MB>situation, though. Our general goal was to help our daughter JK>MP>MB>emphasize her talents (of which many were ADD characteristics) JK>MP>MB>and preserve her self-esteem, so that she could achieve JK>MP>MB>success. For instance, she seemed to need far less sleep than JK>MP>MB>an average child, so instead of insisting that she sleep and JK>MP>MB>making her sleep with medication, we taught her how to utilize JK>MP>MB>those nighttime hours when everyone else was sleeping-- she JK>MP>MB>would read late at night, or work puzzles. JK>MP>Your daughter sounds very bright. What you did was to challenge JK>MP>her in a way that worked *for her*. Many very bright kids are JK>MP>often mistaken for ADHDers. There are many signs that are JK>MP>co-morbid. However, the ADHDer has them to a far greater degree. JK>Pontification doesn't detract one whit from the accomplishment of JK>this family and the persistance they demonstrate to this day in JK>managing to ignore what you and others like you advocate for their JK>children. Gee whillikers, Jane, I just told the lady that she did one heck of a job raising her kid. You found fault with that. What I advocate is proper diagnosis and proper treatment. JK>You just cannot admit that she is correct as it would place a JK>whopping dent in your belief system which is based on incorrect JK>assumptions about the human brain and central nervous system. Golly gee, Jane, I admitted that she did a great job. She did what was right for her child. I said that. I admire that. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBM00001Date: 07/17/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 07:42am \/To: SUE SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: A.D.D SUE SMITH was thinking about A.D.D and keyed into cyberspace: SS>MB> Despite doomsayers who predicted then and now that untreated ADD SS>MB> kid up taking drugs, dropping out of school, being criminals, our SS>MB> daught educated, has never taken drugs, doesn't smoke, certainly SS>MB> is not a c and, in fact, works WITH the DA's office in their SS>MB> prosecutions of ch abusers. SS>MB> SS> SS>I commend you as parents! What a wonderful way of dealing with a SS>problem child. I too, have a son that is ADHD and is currently SS>taking destrastat which is similar to ritalin. However he only SS>takes it during school sessions. You don't have to apologize for using a medication that works for your child. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing. SS>I have attempted several times to take him off the medication only to SS>see him falter along the wayside. Typically he is an honor roll SS>student going into the 3rd grade now, but when he was off medications SS>all of his grades drastically dropped, he was involved in disruptive SS>behavior and seems to be overly sensitive. I placed him back on the SS>drug and saw a marked improvement. Perhaps if you looked at the use of medication (not "drug" which has a negative connotation) in the same way as a parent who gives their diabetic child insulin, you would be more comfortable. You ARE helping your child. That's what good parents do. SS>I would much rather do something "natural" and ween him off the meds. SS>Am definately open to suggestions. Sorry if this topic may have SS>already been discussed, I am new to this echo and just read your SS>message. I have a soon to be 14 year old ADHD son and have tried all of the so- called "alternatives" to medication. None worked. Not one made the slightest difference. We tried pycnogenol, KidPlex (a nutritional supplement which is made up of neurotransmitters precursors) etc., etc., etc. All a waste of money and hope. You are free to try what you want, and I suggest you do that. You may get some suggestions from various people. Try their ideas. Just, do not get your hopes up. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00000Date: 07/18/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:59am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: A.d.d The following paragraph was NOT written to you, Mark. P>JK>Thanks for your post. It should inspire some other parents to try MP>JK>alternative methods of treatment for their ADD children instead of MP>JK>meekly slugging them down with Ritalin for what is called MP>JK>"administrative convenience", mostly of the school system. MP>Now, there's an old wives tale if I ever heard one. Doctors have to MP>write the prescription, Jane. Most have a reason. Like the kid has it. I'd say more young wives tale today. It is the younger ones who have the guts to stand up to the so called experts and find things out for themselves. Incidently, I've supplied you personally with reference after reference which you insist upon twisting around and perverting to suit your own set of firmly set in granite ideas on this and other subjects. There is no room in them for what the young folks are finding out today. My latest excursion into the net on ADD was yesterday, reached http://www.nici.com/nutrition/reference.htm which you really should take the time to check out. The first one on the list was from the prestigious British journal, listed under "Food sensitivities and AD/HD:" J. Egger. Controlled trial of oligoantigenic treatment in hyperkinetic syndrome. LANCET, March 19, pp. 540-45. The rest of the list is from equally prestigious medical journals. Don't be among a dwindling minority of individuals whose information dates back too far to be of much use in the diagnosis and treatment of this condition. --- SLMR 2.1a All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00001Date: 07/18/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:59am \/To: SUE SMITH (Read 1 times) Subj: A.d.d SS>I would much rather do something "natural" and ween him off the meds. SS>Am definately open to suggestions. Sorry if this topic may have SS>already been discussed, I am new to this echo and just read your SS>message. I found some references at http://www.nici.com/nutrition/reference.htm that you might find useful: "References for You and Your Doctor Enlist your doctor's support in helping your child with his/her food sensitivities. Take the references below to your doctor. Or visit a local medical school and ask the librarian to help you locate these journals. Copy the articles. Or ask your local library to order them for you on Inter-library loan. It will probably cost you a few dollars. Then share the references with your doctor. Food sensitivities and AD/HD: J. Egger. Controlled trial of oligantigenic treatment in hyperkinetic syndrome. LANCET, March 19, pp. 540-45. M. Boris. Foods and additives are common causes of attention deficit hyperactive disorder in children. Annals of Allergy 72, 1994, pp. 462-468. B. Kaplan. Dietary replacement in preschool-aged hyperactive boys. Pediatrics 1989, pp. 7-17. C. Carter. Effects of a few food diet in attention deficit disorder. Archives of Diseases in Childhood 69, 1993, p. 564-568. K. Rowe. Synthetic food coloring and behavior: A dose response effect in a double blind, placebo-controlled, repeated measures study. Journal of Pediatrics 125, 1994 pp. 691-8. Food allergy and ear infections: T. Nsouli. Role of food allergy in serious otitis media. Annals of Allergy 73, 1994, pp. 215-219. Lead Poisoning and Behavior: Tuthill, R.W. Hair levels related to children's classroom Attention- Deficit behavior. Archives of Enviornmental Health Vol. 51, May/June 1996, pp. 214-220. Needleman, H.L. Bone lead levels and delinquent behavior. Journal of the American Medical Association Vol. 275, 1996, pp. 363-369." There are some web sites to check out on their ADD and ADHD link page at http://www.nici.com/nutrition/links.htm that include Hyperactive Childrens Support Group: http://homepages.force9.net/hyperactive Feingold Association for additive free diets: http://www.feingold.org Doris Rapp, M.D. http://www/schoolnet.ca/sne/NCCS/ That ought to get you started on alternatives to the Ritalin. --- SLMR 2.1a I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it? * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00002Date: 07/18/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:59am \/To: MARK PROBERT (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana & Addicti [1/3 MP>JK>I've told you several times to go look it up in the official manual MP>JK>of mental health in this nation, the DSM IV. MP>Jane, the degree of "addictiveness" of any substance is NOT cited in MP>either the DSM III or IV. That is not the function of the DSM. HAVE YOU GONE AND LOOKED ANYTHING UP LATELY? Had you done so, you would know that cocaine is now listed as being addictive, that the symptoms of addiction to various drugs are also listed, and that among those are the information concerning marijuana. ----- Operator Halted! --- JCQWK * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00003Date: 07/18/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:59am \/To: TY MEISSNER (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana/men Breast TM> I think marihuana does enlarge mens breasts and lower their sperm TM> count. Some of my Hawaiian friends who indulge in only in the TM> highest grade Pacalolo, seem to be quite chesty, like a lot of old TM> men. One son in law learned this the hard way........and my daughter will never bear a child of her own. They have adopted three so far and will shortly adopt a fourth. One was a day old baby when it came to them. TM> If that's the worst effect it has on health I can't see why its TM> illegal. It ought to be controlled like beer. Stop throwing TM> millions of youngsters into prisons where they learn real hard core TM> crime. Er, ah, we have kids who commit all sorts of crimes and get into all kinds of trouble when they drink beer. We used to provide treatment for drug addicts and alcoholics until Reagan's first term in office. Then the federal money that used to do that has instead gone to prisons. So we have more cops, more courts, more crime and more criminals. That's progress, American style. Those who learned their lessons well from the East India Company have been using drugs in this nation against cultural sub groups for some time. Anyone who plays into their game is stupid. --- SLMR 2.1a We all live in a yellow subroutine. * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBN00004Date: 07/18/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 08:59am \/To: DIA SPRIGGS (Read 1 times) Subj: Question RA>DS> Does anyone know any sites on the web that contain the nutritive value o RA>DS> different foods? RA>No, 'cause I don't have Web access, but check around your local BBSs for RA>shareware called PROGRAM FOR A SMALL PLANET. It's excellent. Try www.ring.com/health/food/food.htm or kidshealth.org/parent/nutrition/healthy food choices/food pyramid.html For sugar free try http://www.teleport.com/!jdbubois/SugarFree.shtml --- SLMR 2.1a On a clear disk you can seek forever * Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (253) 845-2418 (1:138/255)