--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00000Date: 07/06/97 From: BOB MOYLAN Time: 04:11pm \/To: JASON HUFF (Read 1 times) Subj: A Drink Or 2 A Day Jason Huff (On 05 Jul 97) was overheard expounding to Bob Moylan JH>BM> You are not, she did. JH>BM> As you've noticed Jane has a tendency to not respond often to direct JH>BM> questions with direct answers. She's very good at obfuscation. JH> yeah, but if she is "right" why doesn't she respond to direct JH> questions? Perhaps she's been indulging in too many herbal concoctions? ... He flung himself on his horse and rode madly off in all directions --- PPoint 2.03 * Origin: What's The Point? Virginia Beach, VA USA (1:275/429.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00001Date: 07/08/97 From: MELISSA LEVITT Time: 07:43pm \/To: LAURA THOMAS (Read 1 times) Subj: sores Hi Laura, LT>Glad I could help. I always like to pass along good information. I LT>stop people in eckerds and tell them about it. That is if I see them LT>buying Canker medicine. Anyhow....Happy 4th of July Well, I sent it off to my sister, but haven't heard anything yet. And happy 4th to you, too. (: Melissa ... SLMR 2.1a If it walks out of the refrigerator, let it go. --- * Origin: TheSanatorium! 607-648-6789 Sanataria Springs, NY (1:260/432) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00002Date: 07/05/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 07:36am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: marijuana/men breast canc Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: AV>Notwithstanding your apparently unique universe that puts you in AV>contact with with a small minority of people with personal problems that AV>you and they like to blame on drugs or any other convenient scapegoat AV>for lack of personal responsibility, Steve is absolutely right. In fact, AV>the DEA's Administrative Law Judge, after evaluating all of the evidence AV>that the government could muster to prove that marijuana is harmful, came AV>to very much the same conclusions as Steve did. Judge Francis Young AV>determined that marijuana was one of the safest drugs known to man: JK> Got news for you. No judge is educated enough in this matter to JK> make a determination that makes any sense at all. Most of them JK> haven't the faintest idea of what sort of treatment to mandate and JK> so the problems keep going on and on and on. JK> Judge Fancis Young is no better than any of the others. This response clearly demonstrates your propensity to overgeneralize, and to merely deny what you don't agree with. You have invariably exhibited this behavior with respect to drugs, how they affect people, and how people use them. In this instance, you don't know all judges, you don't know most judges, you don't know Judge Young, you don't know what evidence Judge Young considered (unless you read his decision), and yet you make a conclusion based solely upon the fact that the person does not support your version of reality. So, your sweeping opinions in these matters are not credible or unreliable. Look back, if you can, to where we began discussing this issue. You accused me of being in denial. I said that you had previously developed a reputation for making such broad statements without ever supporting them with relevant authority or information, and that you relied only upon parts of DSM IV that, taken out of context of other relevant parts and ignoring other relevant information, could be used to support your assertions. Since then, I have provided you with substantial authority and information to support my statements. On the other hand, you have confirmed your reputation and have never done more than arbitrarily deny, as in this case with *DEA's* administrative law judge Young. --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00003Date: 07/05/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 08:12am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: marijuana & addicti [1/3 Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: AV>You accept the self-serving diagnosis of people who earnestly want AV>to believe that they are victims of external forces and are looking AV>for any excuse to blame their problems on something other than AV>themselves? JK> It is very easy to tell that you haven't the faintest clue as to JK> what A.A. or N.A. are all about. And with the attitude you present JK> here, you are not likely to do so. No. It is you who apparently does not understand psychology, notwithstanding you claims to the contrary. But then, you are the one who criticizes everyone, including the apparent majority of doctors and nurses, who don't agree with you. JK> Physiological research, including what I have presented AV>to you here previously and that you have chosen to ignore, has JK> I've got too many books that are full of physiological research. JK> The trend today is to ignore this and keep our jails and prisons JK> full. That is precisely what your blasted mental health does for JK> addicts.....keeps them in jail and other places. You've got this backwards. I have presented you with the latest physiological research regarding marijuana and the only trend is for *you* to ignore it and advocate maintaining prohibition so that the prisons are being filled with otherwise productive, responsible people who have done nothing other than possess and use an herb that is medicinally useful and that happens to also be intoxicating. Saying something is addictive is meaningless without saying *how addictive* it is. I must also admonish you on your continuing misstatement regarding marijuana being addictive. As demonstrated by the government study I provided you and you ignored, even those seeking to find it to be addictive had to conclude that if it was addictive, it was *less* addictive than caffeine -- although they could not say that it was addictive at all. Nicotine in cigarettes was listed as being 90% addictive. Alcohol was addictive to 15% of people who used it. Cocaine was addictive to 8% who used it. There were no comparable figures for coffee or marijuana. In this context, it was not meaningful to say that marijuana was less addictive than caffeine, because water and potatoes are also less addictive than caffeine. --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00004Date: 07/05/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 08:37am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana & children Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: AV> JK> Then YOU explain WHY many of those who start out using alcohol and AV> JK> marijuna switch to amphetamines and cocaine or other drugs and end AV> JK> up in a psych ward by the time they are 20? AV>Read the above and my previous posts again (if not the first time), AV>please. NO ONE IS ADVOCATING THE RECREATIONAL USE OF MARIJUANA OR AV>ANY OTHER DRUG FOR CHILDREN. JK> Bull. Kids mimic adults. And adults who are stupid enough to have JK> beauty pagents for seven year olds where they put on makeup and JK> wear high heels don't have the good sense to keep marijuana or any JK> other drugs away from them. JK> Take a look around. Many parents treat their children as small JK> adults. If you must, deal with the irresponsible adults as being child abusers. Provide the death penalty for anyone who provides marijuana to a child. Don't criminalize and lock up responsible adults for using marijuana as a medicinal, religious, or recreational herb. --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00005Date: 07/05/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 08:51am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana as medicine 1/ Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: JK> committing suicide and using marijuana and JK> other such drugs is one way of doing just that.....slowly. Wrong again Jane: UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Drug Enforcement Administration _______________________________________ ) In The Matter Of ) ) Docket No. 86-22 MARIJUANA RESCHEDULING PETITION ) _______________________________________) OPINION AND RECOMMENDED RULING, FINDINGS OF FACT, CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND DECISION OF Administrative LAW JUDGE. FRANCIS L. YOUNG, Administrative Law Judge DATED: SEP 6 1988 [...] ACCEPTED SAFETY FOR USE UNDER MEDICAL SUPERVISION With respect to whether or not there is "a lack of accepted safety for use of [marijuana] under medical supervision", the record shows the following facts to be uncontroverted. Findings of Fact 1. Richard J. Gralla, M.D., an oncologist and Professor of Medicine who was an Agency witness, accepts that in treating cancer patients oncologists can use the cannabinoids with safety despite their side effects. 2. Andrew T. Weil, M.D., who now practices medicine in Tucson, Arizona and is on the faculty of the College of Medicine, University of Arizona, was a member of the first team of researchers to perform a Federal Government authorized study into the effects of marijuana on human subjects. This team made its study in 1968. These researchers determined that marijuana could be safely used under medical supervision. In the 20 years since then Dr. Weil has seen no information that would cause him to reconsider that conclusion. There is no question in his mind but that marijuana is safe for use under appropriate medical supervision. 3. The most obvious concern when dealing with drug safety is the possibility of lethal effects. Can the drug cause death? 4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality. - 56 - 5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuana is now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death. 6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year. 7. Drugs used in medicine are routinely given what is called an LD-50. The LD-50 rating indicates at what dosage fifty percent of test animals receiving a drug will die as a result of drug induced toxicity. A number of researchers have attempted to determine marijuana's LD-50 rating in test animals, without success. Simply stated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana to induce death. 8. At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around 1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. NIDA-supplied marijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams. A smoker would theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response. 9. In practical terms, marijuana cannot induce a lethal response as a result of drug-related toxicity. - 57 - 10. Another common medical way to determine drug safety is called the therapeutic ratio. This ratio defines the difference between a therapeutically effective dose and a dose which is capable of inducing adverse effects. 11. A commonly used over-the-counter product like aspirin has a therapeutic ratio of around 1:20. Two aspirins are the recommended dose for adult patients. Twenty times this dose, forty aspirins, may cause a lethal reaction in some patients, and will almost certainly cause gross injury to the digestive system, including extensive internal bleeding. 12. The therapeutic ratio for prescribed drugs is commonly around 1:10 or lower. Valium, a commonly used prescriptive drug, may cause very serious biological damage if patients use ten times the recommended (therapeutic) dose. 13. There are, of course, prescriptive drugs which have much lower therapeutic ratios. Many of the drugs used to treat patients with cancer, glaucoma and multiple sclerosis are highly toxic. The therapeutic ratio of some of the drugs used in antineoplastic therapies, for example, are regarded as extremely toxic poisons with therapeutic ratios that may fall below 1:1.5. These drugs also have very low LD-50 ratios and can result in toxic, even lethal reactions, while being properly employed. 14. By contrast, marijuana's therapeutic ratio, like its LD-50, is impossible to quantify because it is so high. 15. In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating ten raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. 16. Marijuana, in its natural form, is one of the safest therapeutically - 58 - active substances known to man. [...] --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00006Date: 07/05/97 From: ALEX VASAUSKAS Time: 11:18am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: marijuana & addicti [1/3 Jane Kelley wrote in a message to Alex Vasauskas: JK> Physiological research, including what I have presented AV>to you here previously and that you have chosen to ignore, has JK> I've got too many books that are full of physiological research. I would be surprised if you have any reliable physiological research conclusively demonstrating that marijuana has physiological effects associated with addiction. Some day there may be a reliable study conclusively demonstrating that marijuana induces chemical changes in the human brain that are commonly associated with proven drugs of dependence. For example, if a study demonstrated that marijuana stimulates the release of the neurochemical dopamine in the so-called "reward pathways" of the brain and that subjects suffered effects of physical withdrawal upon, for example, the administration of a blocking agent directly into the brain, I would agree that marijuana may be addictive rather than just habituative to *some* people. I would limit this to *some people* because decades of epidemiological human research have failed to demonstrate that marijuana has the kind of serious dependence liability of heroin, alcohol, or tobacco. In fact, the government study that I recently provided you a copy of here determined that marijuana did not even come up to the level of caffeinated coffee, let alone alcohol or cigarettes, in terms of behavioral effects considered to demonstrate addiction. Many substances have some dependence liability, including legal ones like chocolate, sugar, and caffeine, and illegal ones, such as heroin. The concern regarding addiction is *not* whether or not marijuana or any other substance has any dependence liability, but its *relative dependence liability* compared to other things. The most telling evidence available in this regard is that while animal studies demonstrate that animals will self-administer opiates, they will not under any circumstances self-administer THC, the major active ingredient in marijuana. So, please start putting things in proportion. In terms of the overall population, marijuana is either not addictive or its addiction potential is insignificant. If it is addictive to some, they are a very small part of the population. *This* is the kind of information that can help people to make intelligent decisions and to weigh the risks and benefits regarding the use of this, among other, valuable herbs for medicinal and other purposes. --- * Origin: 61 deg. 25' N / 149 deg. 40' W (1:17/75) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00007Date: 07/08/97 From: STEVE KEMP Time: 11:59am \/To: DALE LANE (Read 1 times) Subj: ?ZEN DL>the position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. DL>This is the most important teaching:not two ,and not one. Our body DL>and mind are not two , and not one. If you think your body and mind DL>are two ,that is wrong. If you think that they are one , that is also DL>wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one . We usually think that DL>if something is not one , it is more than one. If it is not singular DL>, it is plural . But in actual experience , our life is not only DL>plural but also singular. Each of us is both dependent and DL>independent. After some years we will die. If we think this will be DL>the end of our life , this will be the wrong understanding. But, on DL>the other hand,if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We DL>die and we do not die. This is the right understanding. DL> from "ZEN MIND, BEGINNER'S MIND" DL> what do you think ? Silly psycho-babble. What good do such little word games play? --- * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: CENTRAL PARK WEST - FOLSOM CA - 916.351.1476 PPI 33.6! (1:203/1476) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00008Date: 07/08/97 From: STEVE KEMP Time: 01:30am \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: Alcoholism AF> > Alan, ever wonder just how many genetic alcoholics have some form AF> > of psi power? AF> > The answer is.......many. AF> Now explain to us what psi power is and how it is measured. ;-) It's the power to lift ones bed-sheets with one or multiple farts. "Honey, was that psycho-kinesis?" "Well, my dear, it certainly smelled like psycho-something!" --- * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: CENTRAL PARK WEST - FOLSOM CA - 916.351.1476 PPI 33.6! (1:203/1476) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EBE00009Date: 07/07/97 From: STEVE KEMP Time: 04:39pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: cancer virus JK>SK>JK>JD>I know that feline leukemia is a contagious virus so maybe JK>SK>JK>JD>some human cancer are also! My cat just got the vaccine for JK>SK>JK>JD>feline leukemia! JK>SK>JK>We have a habit of treating our pets very well in this JK>SK>JK>nation,sometimes better than we do our children. That also JK>SK>JK>goes for feeding. JK>SK>Well then parents should treat their kids better, and beat their JK>SK>dogs more. What does your post have to do with feline leukemia? JK>SK>Or, human cancer? JK>Do we have a vaccine to prevent leukemia in children? No. And with that you are going to postulate that more research time and money has been spend on cats than humans? Get real. --- * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: CENTRAL PARK WEST - FOLSOM CA - 916.351.1476 PPI 33.6! (1:203/1476)