--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00032Date: 06/28/97 From: ROYCE SHARP Time: 10:27pm \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: acupuncture * Reply to msg originally in Alternative Medicines -=> Quoting Alan Fletcher to Royce Sharp <=- AF> Hi Royce, Hello Alan, > Alan, > Your simple reply is both closed minded and naive. If a person is > able to eliminate pain and suffering through a "non-traditional" > method, > there can be nothing wrong with it as long as nobody else suffers as a > result. The outrageous attempt at likening a leg injury treated by > acupuncture with an amputee druging it up on "morphium" shows little or > no belief in anything other than blind faith in "Dr. God Complex." > It is not necessary for you to understand how it works. It is not > necessary for you to be treated with acupuncture. It IS enough for > a person to find relief from the pain. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS!!!!! > If it doesn't work for you, TO BAD! Go to your M.D. and get your > drugs. > Pop those pills & shoot up your veins with all the dope you want. > And when you are on all your drugs and wondering why you are in such > bad shape, let your mind contimplate what COULD have been. AF> I can understand your reaction (heard it all before) which probably AF> stems from the fact that you don't know my views all that well. I Now that I have calmed down from the anger I felt as a result of your earlier message, shall we analize the line of thinking ref. ALTMED and other treatments available? AF> am totally against all forms of treatment, i.e. as long as the AF> cause and hence a preventative strategy has not been researched AF> first (and with more funds than are spent on treatments...which do AF> not cure anything). I have a problem with this line of thinking in that it does not take into consideration the multitude of ailments for which there are no cures. If a person has (as a simple example) arthritis, they will commonly contact a doctor who will recomend NSAIDs to reduce the swelling & hence reduce the pain. As you said, there are side effects to this, and many other types of treatment, but with careful management, the side effects can be overcome and reduced to nothing more than a minor anoyance. Now, as we all know, there is no cure for arthritis. Researchers have been working on a cure for arthritis for longer than anyone can truely say. Maybe there is a cure out there, maybe they never will find a cure. The question is -- What is a person to do until that cure is found? My wife happens to suffer from Lupus. One of the symptoms of Lupus is arthritis. Since there is no cure for Lupus or arthritis, we must treat the symptoms. Every Dr. we have talked to says treating the symptoms is all that can be done at this point. -------- AF> Thus neither acupuncture or morphium address AF> the cause or causes of an ailment. Addressing the cause or causes of an ailment is not the only objective in treating the patient. Allowing the patient to be functional and capable of living a happy and productive life, is a MAJOR part of the equation. AF> In addition, pain killers in AF> particular often mask or supress a body response (pain or swelling AF> etc.) and thus merely give patients a false sense of security whilst AF> providing a degree of relief (often with other side-effects) AF> rather than any possibility of a cure or at least an improvement. Pain killers (and other drugs with simular effects and side effects) are touchy treatments. This is a situation where the patient must take a very active role in their own treatment (as they always should). A decision must be made to balance the effects of no treatment (or minimal treatment) with the effects of treatments focused on masking the body's responses. Looking into one's own heart is the only answer to this delimma. AF> Whilst it is important until a way for the body to cure itself has AF> been found to provide relief to those in severe pain, To this, I do truely agree. It does, however, stand in direct contrast to the opinions you have expressed in the past, but I'll overlook that for now. AF> dowsing AF> the embers of a burnt house will not re-establish that house in AF> all its former glory. If I may borrow your parable; I would much rather live in a house that has had the back pourch burnt off, than to live only in the kitchen because the rest of the house is not livable. AF> And dowsing a house with water containing AF> other agressive substances (i.e. drugs with side-effects) is AF> certainly even more counterproductive in attempting to achieve AF> such a goal. Again, this is something the patient & the doctor must weigh the advantages and disadvantages of to come to a morally satisfactory decision. AF> Most people (and hence the researchers providing the AF> pills to meet the demand) spend much more time on cleaning their AF> outsides rather than their insides and place the responsibility AF> for any ailments resulting from this approach in the hands of AF> the docs (or even some ALTMED herbal brew) rather than accept AF> the blame and the responsibility for the situation themselves. You're making me nervous. I agree again. AF> Health is much more than the odd vitamin pill and a workout at the AF> gym and eating less animal fats. It is highly dependent in my AF> view (and not only mine) on us living and eating and moving AF> as we used to do (i.e. before fire was discovered) and are hence AF> programmed to do. In other words, living as closely as possible AF> in our different environment to the way the wild animals still AF> do and the way the wild animal "man" used to do. You mean back when the life span was less than 15 years and the enamel on our teeth lasted longer than we did? Get real! I would agree that people had very few medical ailments back then. They ate much more ruffage, but they also ate raw meat. They were in very good shape (they had to be, or die), but they spent all day, every day, looking for food & better shelter. There is very little that can be adapted from those days to today. Come forward to a more intelligent time, and you end up with the Asian people who had the ability to live very well. The doctors of their time practiced what we would consider to be alternative medical treatments. They did not have any way to truely research any type of ailment. It was trial-and-error. The interesting thing about old medical treatments is that they used herbs & other non-traditional (by today's standards) treatments. Listen, I agree that health is much more than the odd vitamin pill, a workout at the gym and eating less animal fats, but you seem to be leaving out so many options. AF> All modern and AF> even less modern successful approaches to prevention and cure AF> (i.e. the body curing itself) would seem to bear this out as AF> they always tend to take one or more of these aspects into AF> consideration. There are too many ailments the body can not effectivly "fix" without some form of assistance. By the way, I too believe in the body curing itself. However, if the body is unable to cure itself, and all of the doctors have given up on curing you (or anyone), then what alternative does a person have? You also seem to be leaving out the mind as being part of the body. If a person damages a joint, say, the knee, and tells the doctors they do not wish to use any drugs that are not completely understood, the doctors will design a treatment system for the patient to follow. If the patient is still suffering from pain, the patient would (in most cases) ask the doctor what other options are available. If the doctors tell the patient there is no proven or understood system of treatment left, by your line of thinking, the person is simply SOL. You did mention the use of pain killers until a cure is found, but the person would have to deal with the side effects. If an alternative treatment is attempted and is succesful in removing the pain, I again ask, where is the problem. Even if the effect is only psychosomatic, you end up with your mind fooling you instead of you fooling your mind. The patient is now functional. If the patient goes out and injures the knee again, then you are dealing with stupidity and that is where I have very little sympathy. Again, where is there anything wrong with this? That is the biggest question you were never able to successfully answer. I truely wish you well and hope you never end up with a chronic ailment. Until another time, Royce ps A chiropractor kept my wife's Lupus in remission for over two years. The "traditional" doctors have not been able to do that with ANY therapy. ... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity. --- WtrGate+ 0.92.p5 gamma sn 107 * Origin: GratisNet (1:170/302) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00033Date: 06/28/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 04:27pm \/To: KLAUS WIEGAND (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: FDA Acts KLAUS WIEGAND was thinking about Re: FDA Acts and keyed into cyberspace: KW>hello mark. KW>MU>>-> dead in the L-tryptophan fiasco and that there have been KW>MU>>-> 18 deaths and KW>MU>>Fiasco is a good description: it was a one-time event. The KW>MU>>batch of tryptophan that caused damage and death was KW>MU>>manufactured in a facility (in Japan) whose machinery was KW>MU>>contaminated during the manufacture of that batch. The KW>MU>>people harmed by taking it (my sister was one of them) who KW>MU>>survived, and some of the survivors of the dead, wrote to KW>MU>>the FDA to protest the removal of tryptophan from the open KW>MU>>market. It wasn't tryptophan that did the damage: it was KW>MU>>contamination. KW>MP>It wasn't contamination. It was blind faith in an "oriental" KW>MP>product where there was little, if any, quality control. KW>whether you are the "voice of reason", might still be discussed (per KW>net mail. may others discuss it, certainly not me. the fact, that 7 KW>of your last 10 mails were nothing but insults to others, does'nt KW>support your assumption at all. maybe you looked up the word KW>"reason" in another dictionary than me), but certainly you are not KW>the "voice of knowledge". KW>it was !! a contamination with a toxic metabolite. In 1989 the KW>japanese company showa denko k.k. marketed tryptophan as a KW>nutritional supplement in your country. It had been produced in KW>genetically engineered bacteria (does medical mystery threaten KW>biotech? science, page 619, 2. Nov 1990). thousands of people fell KW>ill - 1500 being permanently disabled and 37 (not 18!!) died. hplc KW>showed this product was more than 99.6% pure tryptophan ("an KW>investigation of the cause of the eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome KW>associated with tryptophan use", new england journal of medicine, 323: 3 KW>57- 365, 1990). however, they also contained traces of a highly KW>toxic contaminant (a stereometric isomere, read nejm and science !) KW>which accounted for less than 0.01% of the total mass of the KW>product (ems and tryptophan production: a cautionary tale, KW>tibtech,12:346-352, 1994). the process of production made the key KW>difference as previously synthesised tryptophan by another batch of KW>bacteria of the same species had been safe. a small genetic KW>abberation made the difference. KW>in this case of the genetically minimal different bacteria for KW>producing tryptophan, many patients are still in a chronic phase of KW>eosinophilia- myalgia syndrome today. afaik your national EMS KW>newsletter still mails to approximately 800 survivors, which is KW>about half the initial EMS victims identified. The total number of KW>victims is estimated in the thousands. (you can find information on KW>EMS and tryptophan on the EMS home page KW>http://www.nemsn.org/ems/html/, or refer to the scientific article: KW>"eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome and tryptophan production: a KW>cautionary tale", trends in biotechnology, Sept., 1994, pp. 346-352.) KW>now you still might say, that science, neym and trends in biotech are KW>no "grave" journals..... KW>and stop crying for ms. moderator for name-spelling, as long as YOU KW>name duesberg a swine !! i do not at all agree with his theories KW>(there are some quite weak parts in his theses), but since the KW>galileo-case i have never, never read, that the scientific KW>community has been sooo agressive, ignorant, rejective and in a KW>hurry for censorship against someone with a theory, which does not KW>fit in the usual way of research/thinking. KW>fact is: KW>an issue of nature (362:103-104, 1993) contained a commentary in KW>which ascher et al. concluded that hiv infection, but not drug use, KW>is significantly correlated with the risk of developing aids. Their KW>article was based on epidemiological data gathered by the sf men's KW>health study, and written *expressly* to refute duesberg's drug-aids KW>hypothesis. despite this, and the fact that the article mentioned KW>him by name 19 times, nature *refused* to publish duesberg's reply. KW>instead, the 13 May issue carried an unusually long editorial with KW>the title "has duesberg the right of reply?," in which the editor KW>attempted to justify this (by himself acknowledged) censorship. KW>the conduits for scientific debate should be open and the free KW>exchange of ideas never be censored, but instead openly critisized. KW>consequently that gives me enough doubts about his fellow KW>researchers and their "honorable" motives. they might find KW>themselfes some day to bark up the wrong viral tree. I won't argue with you about it as we are really both correct. When the first deaths were linked to L-tryptophan there were people who whined that the nasty old government was just trying to control one more thing (Continued next message...) ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00034Date: 06/28/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 04:28pm \/To: KLAUS WIEGAND (Read 1 times) Subj: Re: FDA Acts (Continued from previous message...) so that someone could make a profit. This is the crowd that thinks "oriental good, occidental bad" as a knee jerk reaction. Instead of decisive action, the government took its time and more people died and became permanently impaired as you correctly point out. The cause was as you say, the degree of damage was possibly avoidable. ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00035Date: 06/28/97 From: MARK PROBERT Time: 04:48pm \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: sores ALAN FLETCHER was thinking about sores and keyed into cyberspace: AF> cortisone (the one and only answer that the allopaths have). Alan, don't see the new movie Jurasic Park-The Lost World. They have the meanest allopathasaurus you have ever seen. :) ===>The Voice of Reason<=== mark.probert@juno.com --- * CMPQwk #1.4 * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY * Origin: PC BBS : Massapequa, NY : (516)795-5874 (1:2619/110) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00036Date: 06/25/97 From: TERRY RICKS Time: 10:20am \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: Virus Hello, again Alan, I'd like to deal with these points: > Not exactly...the success of a viral infection depends on them being > able to overcome the defense offered by the immune system. A task that is much easier to do for an initial infection. If the immune system hasn't been exposed to the virus previously then the virus will have an unprotected system to attack (that is the term that is commonly used). The immune system takes time to build its defence: a helper T-cell has to be exposed to analyse the new virus, make the appropriate interleukin, which is released to be picked up by a pre-B-cell, which will then mature into a B-cell that makes antibodies to that virus. This takes time. In the meantime the virus is running rampant over the target cells. > My point is that viruses are only a hazard to unhealthy people and Based on the above, that's not entirely true, however, unhealthy people, assuming that you mean malnurished, or immuno-compromised, are definately at greater risk. If you have another definition of unhealthy I'm curious to hear it. > What I was implying was that industry is only interested in applied > research which leads to a saleable product. All the rest is merely > propaganda. > On this point we are in full agreement! > OK, again, what's your point?!! > > You probably missed it as you are new to the echo. My point is/was > that industrial researchers in this field (at least those that > I know as well as those that they know) seem to be really > hesitant about taking their own pills and preparations. Yes, I understand your references to industry now. Apparently I did "jump in" in the middle of a thread and repsonded without knowing what came previously. My impression is that you're not in the U.S., is that correct? Where are you from, the U.K.? Terry --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: Electronic Avenue BBS 210-533-5668 San Antonio, TX (1:387/510) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAZ00037Date: 06/25/97 From: TERRY RICKS Time: 03:28pm \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: Virus > Well I have a question for you: Now that it has been "established" > that gastric ulcers are "caused" by the bacteria helicobacter > pylori, how come we all consume this bacteria but relatively few > in comparison develop gastric ulcers? It doesn't matter if you > can't answer this question, but there are still a lot of > microbiologists around (particularly those who "discovered" the > pylori theory and are still bathing in the glory) who still choose > to either purposely ignore or even question the credibility of this > question. > As you have noted, the knowledge of this bacterium is relatively new. It is known that persons with blood type O are most susceptable to the destructive actions of *H. pylori*. All other persons are mostly resistant. This is because *H. pylori* has a receptor site on its cell surface for the surface antigens on O type RBC's (I'm not sure if Rh factor is signigicant). In type O persons *H. pylori* will first remove the mucous layer that protects the stomach lining, then it will attach itself to the lining villi. The removal of the mucous allows stomach acid to attack the stomach lining, and provides an environment for the reproduction of *H. pylori*. The result will be a gastric ulceration. Hope this is helpful, Terry * AmyBW v2.14 * --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: Electronic Avenue BBS 210-533-5668 San Antonio, TX (1:387/510) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EB100000Date: 06/27/97 From: MELISSA LEVITT Time: 02:08am \/To: ALAN FLETCHER (Read 1 times) Subj: sores Hi Alan, AF> Welcome back!! :-) Thanks. (: AF> > I haven't been in here in a while (busy, you know how it is), and I AF> > asked a friend of mine to post a message in here to query y'all about AF> > sores (canker sores, to be specific) and their cause. Not cold sores. AF> > And I haven't seen any replies to her since I re-ordered this echo. Did AF> > anyone reply to a post like that? My sister is having a major case of AF> > hives and the doctor believes she is allergic to something within AF> > herself which could possibly be related to the canker sores. Apparently AF> > her hives show up at the same time that she gets canker sores. So I ust AF> > wondered if anyone could shed any light on their cause so she could AF> > maybe figure out what to do about them or what to change in her diet or AF> > lifestyle to stop them, and maybe stop the extremely annoying and AF> > difficult hives. Thanks for any info anyone can provide, and sorry I AF> > haven't been joining in lately. Life has caught up with us, and it akes AF> > precedence over mail *most* of the time. (: AF> Are you talking about urticaria? If so....there are many causes and AF> it is most difficult (if not impossible) for anyone to diagnose AF> it via FIDO. I would recommend that your sister consults a good AF> (who is good?) naturopath..if she does not want to be dosed with AF> cortisone (the one and only answer that the allopaths have). No, I'm not directly discussing Urticaria. Urticaria (better known as hives) are the resulting difficulty which my sister suspects is linked to her canker sores. Any advice on canker sores? Melissa ... SLMR 2.1a Columbus HAD a fourth ship. It fell off the edge. --- * Origin: TheSanatorium! 607-648-6789 Sanataria Springs, NY (1:260/432) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EB100001Date: 06/27/97 From: MELISSA LEVITT Time: 02:01am \/To: LAURA THOMAS (Read 1 times) Subj: sores Hi Laura, LT> I saw your post about Canker sores. I get them alot. My LT>grandmother took me to a dentist as a kid and he told her to have me LT>rinse my mouth with Phillips Milk of Magnesia. It takes the fire out of LT>the sores and heals them up quick usually within a couple days. The LT>soreness is gone in 24 hours. I brush my teeth and tongue rinse well LT>and then put a tablespoon of M.O.M. in my mouth and swish it around. LT>Then spit it out but dont rinse your mouth or drink for at least a half LT>hour. I usually do it before I go to bed and then I dont drink or rinse LT>at all. That way the medicine works all night Thanks for the advice. I'll pass this along to my sister, who I'm sure will appreciate it. (: Melissa ... SLMR 2.1a Comes with all you see here. Batteries not included. --- * Origin: TheSanatorium! 607-648-6789 Sanataria Springs, NY (1:260/432) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EB100002Date: 06/30/97 From: STEVE KEMP Time: 01:59pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: cancer virus JK>JD>I know that feline leukemia is a contagious virus so maybe some JK>JD>human cancer are also! My cat just got the vaccine for feline JK>JD>leukemia! JK>We have a habit of treating our pets very well in this JK>nation,sometimes better than we do our children. That also goes for JK>feeding. Well then parents should treat their kids better, and beat their dogs more. What does your post have to do with feline leukemia? Or, human cancer? --- * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: CENTRAL PARK WEST - FOLSOM CA - 916.351.1476 PPI 33.6! (1:203/1476) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EB100003Date: 06/30/97 From: STEVE KEMP Time: 02:12pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 1 times) Subj: Marijuana JK>Then YOU explain WHY many of those who start out using alcohol and JK>marijuna switch to amphetamines and cocaine or other drugs and end up JK>in a psych ward by the time they are 20? Because marijuana is illegal. The dealers tend to sell other illegal drugs. Your postulation that many that start with alcohol and them move on to harder drugs is not factual. MOST people that drink alcohol DON'T do any other drug....well except nicotine. Many end up in Psych wards by the time they are 20? I don't know what planet you are living on but drug treatment is rather expensive and NOT available to most drug users....AND drug use by and large does not make people totally insane. Actually, your entire post is hogwash... --- * CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: CENTRAL PARK WEST - FOLSOM CA - 916.351.1476 PPI 33.6! (1:203/1476)