--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAK00024Date: 06/09/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:01am \/To: KANE GUY (Read 2 times) Subj: Adhd KG> JK> What part? My own ancestors came from Scotland and Wales as far as I KG> JK> can tell. KG>I'm from South-East England, Kent! Often called the garden of England. I'd love to chat on about some other things, however that wouldn't be nice at all. What I will ask about are the folk medicine practices that may still be going on in your part of the world. Are there any herbalists left, for instance, or others who have some of the ancient Celtic knowledge? * SLMR 2.1a * We all live in a yellow subroutine. - JetMail v1.20*6 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire --- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3 * Origin: PEACHY KEENO INN BBS * Tacoma,Wa * (206)539-0804 (1:138/190.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAK00025Date: 06/09/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:06am \/To: ALEX VASAUSKAS (Read 2 times) Subj: marijuana & addiction AV> JK> I do have some papers and books around here on this subject, AV>I have seen the evidence regarding your purported plethora of AV>authorities -- it is as substantial as Joe McCarthy's list of AV>names of communists. If you spent as much time typing up what you AV>claim to have as you have spent typing your proclamations regarding AV>its existence, you would by now have it available to upload for AV>others to review by a simple import command. I'm not responsible for your lack of knowledge on subjects I've spent 50 years accumulating. I was 19 when I began as a student nurse in a federal psych hospital in D.C. There were diagnoses there which just aren't available today, at least to the average student nurse. I learned to give bed baths and basic care on folks with tertiary syhphilis in the late stage, after it had hit the brain. There was an entire building filled with neurological patients the likes of which I have not seen since. And I have sat and listened to more addicts in recovery than you will ever get a chance to meet. AV> JK> That also will not impact a true marijuana addict. AV>If such a person exists, he/she is a truly rare bird. Anyone AV>who claims to be a marijuana addict is most likely a person AV>with a victim mentality who relies upon the claim of addiction AV>to justify his or her continued use in the face of peer AV>disapproval. I suggest you go find a copy of the DSM IV, the official manual of mental illnesses in this nation, and find out what it says in it about marijuana. That is, if you want the truth instead of whatever your peers tell you is so. * SLMR 2.1a * I think therefore I am not a REpublican. - JetMail v1.20*6 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire --- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3 * Origin: PEACHY KEENO INN BBS * Tacoma,Wa * (206)539-0804 (1:138/190.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAK00026Date: 06/09/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:06am \/To: ALEX VASAUSKAS (Read 2 times) Subj: marijuana & health AV>AV>Actually, marijuana can have significant health benefits. This AV>AV>is why states have passed laws permitting medicinal marijuana use. AV>AV>Moreover, using marijuana is not a significant health hazard. AV>AV>Here is a synopsis by the Norml Foundation of a study AV>AV>entitled "Marijuana Use and Mortality". The report of the study AV>AV>appeared in the April 1997 issue of the _American Journal of AV>AV>Public Health_: AV> JK> And I can find more information to the contrary. AV>Assuming that you can, I would be surprised if it's competent: Your attitude won't change the facts, nor will the so-called "experts" who want to keep using their drug of choice. * SLMR 2.1a * Hello, I am part number **************** - JetMail v1.20*6 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire --- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3 * Origin: PEACHY KEENO INN BBS * Tacoma,Wa * (206)539-0804 (1:138/190.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAK00027Date: 06/09/97 From: JANE KELLEY Time: 10:33am \/To: TERRY RICKS (Read 2 times) Subj: Virus Thank you for this post. I'm going to print it out and save it as it is the best short version of this subject I have seen to date. Jane Kelley TR> Alright Alan, I'm going to butt in here! A virus is an obligate TR>intracellular parasite. It's bio-chemical make up includes one of four TR>forms of nucleic acid: single stranded DNA, double stranded DNA, single TR>stranded RNA, or double stranded RNA. The nucleic acid is contained nside TR>a protein coat that is called a capsid. The capsid is made up of protein TR>groupings that are called capsomeres. Also kept inside the capsid are TR>specific enzymes and control proteins that have the function of taking ver TR>metabolic control of the cellular host. TR> To say that a virus, or more properly a single viral entity, called a TR>virion, is metabolically inert is incorrect. There is no enzymatic activity TR>within the virion because there is no substrate present for the enzymes to TR>react with. The term dormant is more correct. TR> While the "dormancy" exists inside the capsid, the capsid itself is TR>very reactive. Every known cellular form of life has a large variety of TR>cell surface proteins. Some of these react with food molecules, to bring TR>those molecules within the cell. Some of those proteins, unfortunately re TR>receptor sites for viral capsid proteins. Whenever the correct capsid TR>protein/cell surface protein come into contact covelent and hydrogen bonds TR>are formed. This then triggers the action by the cell of "pulling in" the TR>virus in various ways (the mechanisms are very complex and can be iscussed TR>later if desired). TR> The effect is to "open" the capsid allowing the viral nucleic acid into TR>the cytoplasm of the cell. The various control proteins also come in and TR>take over the metabolism of the host cell. The result is the replication of TR>the virus, producing millions to billions of virions. Once all the irions TR>are matured the host cell ruptures, releasing the virions into the TR>environment. The virus is metabolically active during the entire TR>reproductive process and lives at the expense of the host (definition of a TR>parasite). This entire process from attachment of the virion to the TR>rupture of the host cell is called the CYTOLYTIC CYCLE. TR> Viruses are NOT cells, they are obligate intracellular parasites! They TR>are dormant until activated by binding to a receptive host. They cause TR>disease by the destruction of host cells, which disrupts the normal function TR>of the organ that is made up of those host cells. TR>Terry A. Ricks, B.S., M.S., R.S. TR>Istructor of Microbiology, TR>San Antonio College, San Antonio, Texas TR> * AmyBW v2.14 * TR>--- FMail 1.02 TR> * Origin: Electronic Avenue BBS 210-533-5668 San Antonio, TX (1:387/510) * SLMR 2.1a * If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. - JetMail v1.20*6 - Unregistered QWK Mail Door for Spitfire --- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3 * Origin: PEACHY KEENO INN BBS * Tacoma,Wa * (206)539-0804 (1:138/190.1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAK00028Date: 06/13/97 From: STEPHEN BOWYER Time: 04:18pm \/To: WAYNE YOUNG (Read 2 times) Subj: Genetic Religion??!!!! SB> pretend that your netmail came into the ALTMED echo just by chance, SB> you are so sad. WY> Really SAD for a "SysOp" who couldn't comprehend what happen. You're the one who has big problems. WY> Just go back to your closet and don't tell me your sad life! Talk WY> to a queer like yourself for comfort. I wouldn't want to go into any closet, because I'd find you there. I'm sure I *AM* talking to a "queer" (you). Ste the Sysop - Bredbury BBS (0161 4306320) 2:250/133 @ FIDO fax - 0161 666 8058 voice chat anytime/anyone - 0161 666 8057 --- * Origin: Bredbury BBS (0161 430 6320) (2:250/133) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAL00000Date: 06/12/97 From: ALAN FLETCHER Time: 11:00pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 2 times) Subj: Alcohol As An Alternative Hi Jane, > AF> So I gathered. ;-) I was just wanting to point out that mandatory > AF> health insurance also has its disadvantages. I for one have paid > AF> a small fortune into it over my working life to date (I have paid > AF> the highest contributions possible..based on earnings.. for the past > AF> 15 years). If I had invested that money with even only 5% interest > AF> (the same goes for mandatory pension insurance) I would have been > AF> almost a millionaire by the age of 60!! > The problem with humans appears to be that by the time they realize the > need to save and invest money, they are too old to enjoy spending it. > Instead, it goes for medicines and doctor bills :). Many people here start paying small monthly payments into low-interest mortgage schemes at an early age (also for their kids) and can thus get a substantial low-interest and fixed interest loan to buy a new house or buy and renovate an old house. The cost of land and building (no wooden houses here and all houses have underground cellars) is fairly expensive (but a good investment). > Therefore, unless there is some sort of group effort made while they are > young, they will not save or invest. Saving money just doesn't seem to > work for most of us around here as the temptation is there to spend what > is in the bank. However, if there is some fund that both the worker and > the company pay into, that will accumulate as the worker usually has no > idea of what his part of that fund is worth. We have such a fund where the employer provides a set amount (about 50 dollars) per month, the employee provides the other 50 dollars and the government adds a bonus to this at the end of the five-year saving period. The 5,000 or so dollars always come in handy. > We have social security, which, incidently, is supposed to be changing > into something more like a mutual fund, So do we...and the pension is based (to date) on the last salary before tax minus about 20%. The drop in the birthrate since the pill was introduced is now endangering this scheme and it is said that it will probably end up as uniform pensions for all by the year 2030 (so many will have paid a small fortune based on a percentage of their salary for nothing). If this had been saved in a bank or invested in government bonds etc. many would be millionaires by the time they were about 60. > I got Medicare at 65, don't believe in paying the grossly expensive fees > for any medical insurance supplement. You would be a high-risk client at that age. > It would cost me more to obtaint > that than I spend on doctor's bills in a year. The fees for the > accident I had on Christmas (went bathing inside my pickup in a local > creek when I hit a stretch of black ice and got a nasty cut on the top > of my head) were paid by the auto insurance company. Fully comprehensive care insurance is so expensive over here that most just take it out when they buy a new car and then drop it after about two years (the insurance then only covers any damage you do to others). > It is important that older people own outright their own homes and not > be making huge mortgage payments. The cost of the medical care starts > to creep in the late 50's and 60's. This is why these low-interest mortgage schemes are so popular here. Also any children can inherit a house which is only, say, half paid for as the value has usually increased so much by the time they get to inherit it from the parents that selling the house and paying off the rest of the debt still leaves a pretty profit. > Lest anyone think that alternative medicine is cheap, let me assure you > that those herbal remedies and vitamin supplements also have a price tag > on them. And they can cost quite a bit when added all up. Alternative medicine costs nothing if you gather it in-situ. I do not consider processed herbs..and certainly not vitamin etc. supplements.. to be alternative medicine (they are allopathic medicine). Alan --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: The Bear's Cave (2:2461/161.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAL00001Date: 06/12/97 From: ALAN FLETCHER Time: 11:13pm \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 2 times) Subj: Alcoholism Hi Jane, This is the last reply to you on the subject of alcoholism. > AF> > JK> > I believe we are very shortly going to find out that there > is no su AF> > JK> > thing as "mental" illness, that the body is sick > and that produces AF> > JK> > sick mind. > AF> > AF> That would go along with ALTMED thinking..... > JK > Dunno about that, it is only logical in an era where we can > pinpoint JK> > physical causes for what used to be thought strictly > mental problems JK> > such as the bipolar disorder and alcoholism. > AF> We have not yet pinpointed any cause for alcoholism...i.e. other than > AF> excessive alcohol consumption in some cases..and bipolar disorder is > AF> also still merely a theory. > Who is this "we", Kimosabe? "Usuns in this nation and some enlightened > folks in Europe have been convinced for some time that alcoholism has > some inherited features, some research is out to substantiate this. As long as research is still trying to substantiate (most of it is and hopes not to substantiate anything too quickly) then it is still following up on a theory. > The one "Usun" who would know about anything world wide is Jim Milam, of > the Milam Recovery Program, 12845 Ambaum Blvd. SW, Seattle WA 98146. He > is Dr. James Milam, Ph.D. to those who need credentials. > Then there is another bunch of "Usuns" at Schick Shadel Hospital, 12101 > Ambaum Boulevard SW, Seattle WA 98146. They have been providing > medically based treatment for alcoholism since the start of Alcoholics > Anonymous or more than 50 years now. They have also been developing > statistics for that same length of time. The information I have is very > old, but it does indicate that around 30 years ago, they were aware of > the percentages of children of alcoholics who became alcoholics > themselves. There is a distinct difference between the child of an alcoholic being endangered (highly possible I would have thought considering those poor children of parents addicted to heroin etc.) and a child having a specific genetic pattern which spells alcoholism at some stage. Even if this latter possibility was proven (we are still waiting of course and paying researchers to research and research...) alcoholism would still be a self-inflicted injury. > Since then, we have had the twin studies done in the Scandinavian > nations followed by twin studies here. Those proved that identical > twins, separated by birth and raised in foster homes apart, would become > alcoholics despite their foster parents habits. They even found one set > of twins who drank the same brand of beer and crushed the cans when > empty in the same fashion! Not unknown for identical twins living apart to have similar habits and preferences. But those twins had identical PARENTS who may have been partial to booze (it would thus be irrelevant if the foster parents were teetotallers. Alan --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: The Bear's Cave (2:2461/161.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAL00002Date: 06/13/97 From: ALAN FLETCHER Time: 12:34am \/To: JANE KELLEY (Read 2 times) Subj: Arthritis hi Jane, > JK> > We had to learn how to regenerate the human immune system or face > death. > AF> So how are you going about it...if you don't mind me asking? > JK> > This is called folk or empirical medicine and isn't found in data > bases JK> > of any kind. > At first, we detoxed folks with honey and fluids, I have reached the conclusion that even today the allopathics still have no idea at all what a detox is and how it should be done..and the reasons against doing it their way. The same applies to many so-called alternative nutrition groups (the most famous being the microbiotic crowd..who nearly killed themselves before realising the error of their ways). > then progressed to adding other food supplements as their use > was understood. Food supplements? Why should we need food "supplements"? > Then when > the "Friends of Dr. Bob" got going, the medical and nursing folks who > combined their educations with experience, other methods cropped up. Hopefully not those of Dr. Bob (does he still have any friends BTW?). > Most of this is dietary. I have one diet for hypoglycemia from Cabrini > Hospital in Seattle that was the first sort prescribed as many newly > recovering alcoholics are reactive hypoglycemics. That will correct > itself in most cases if they follow the diet and then get into A.A. > and/or treatment. > Essentially, no sugar or processed foods with sugar in them, 4-6 small > meals a day instead of the one large meal most of them ate while > drinking, lots of fruit juices, and no sweets such as pie. No coffee > either or pop with caffeine in it. Whilst this would certainly be a step in the right direction..what else are they "allowed" to eat and why are they allowed to consume gluten foods? > Later foods which stimulate the production of specific neurotransmitters > were advocated when it was learned that the variation in the Alpha and > REM brain waves could be "fixed" on a daily basis by elevation of them. > They would be Dopamine, Norephinephrine, Serotonin, and GABA. Because > we try to ELEVATE the low levels of Serotonin usually found in both > alcoholics and Bipolar individuals, the use of a drug such as Prozac > which will LOWER the level of Serotonin receptors in the brain, is > counterindicated by our better psychiatrists. > This chart should help: > Amino Acid Neurochemical Effects > L-Phenylalanine Dopamine feelings of pleasure and well-being > L-Phenylalanine Norephinephrine increased energy and alterness > L-Tryptophan Serotonin improved sleep, calmness, > allieviation of paranoia > L-Glutamine GABA decreased tension and irritabilty > There is much more information if you don't have it. Just let me know. Most natural foods contain even all of the above essentials Jane... they do not stimulate anything..they are merely essential for a healthy diet as the body can not produce them itself. Your approach puts much too much accent on food instead of on health. IOW, it is even possible to be healthy with a slightly less than perfect diet. There are still too many unknown factors as regards to diet (and not enough money is being spent on this research because it is counterproductive to both the pharma and food industries). For example, it is still not known why comparitively low doses of, say vitamin C in one orange a day, are more effective in alleviating deficiency problems than megadoses of vitamin C pills. The role of other substances in conjunction with vitamin C (as one example) is obvious but has still not been thoroughly researched. Phytochemicals (which may also play a role in conjunction with vitamin and mineral intake) are also now being investigated (with not enough funds of course as they are not likely to be moneyspinners). IOW, it is quite ridiculous to claim, for example, that consuming L-tryptophan in turkey (there are much higher levels in other non-meat, natural foodstuffs BTW) stimulates the production of serotonin and hence helps one to sleep better. Tryptophan is merely a building block of serotonin and consuming it merely helps the body to produce the quantity of serotonin it decides to produce IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE GENERAL STATE OF HEALTH of that person. People who regularly take sleeping pills sleep just as well when the doc gives them a placebo for a couple of months in between (same shape, size and color of course). Tryptophan is thus not the answer to sleep just as dopamine is not the answer to wellbeing or phenylalanine to energy and alertness. It would be nice if it were that simple. In fact it has already been proven that people actually have the natural instinctive capability of recognising exactly which food they need and when (including by yours personally but I was thinking of the pioneering work of Guy-Claude Burger) but just that most don't tend to heed this "inner voice" any more. What is also amazing to any raw food eater (wild plants or organic veggies rather than commercial plants and veggies) is the extreme difference in wellbeing when eating live plants (i.e. within not more than a couple of hours of being harvested) rather than dead plants (plants which have been harvested more than 24 hours beforehand). The research on why this is so is meagre and being conducted by isolated researchers relying on donations in most cases. Kirlian photography, for example, is still ridiculed today (because it is the only really reliable way of establsihing whether something is vitally alive, half-dead or completely dead) because the food industry (which always claims to deliver "fresh" and process "fresh ingredients") would be ridiculed and even subject to claims for damages if the technology were used for screening foods. Kirlian photography can even distinguish whether a vegetable is "fully organic", "not 100% organic" or "mass-produced as we know it". It can even be used to establish the best type of soil for a particular plant species. Whilst there is some research going on at Stanford (William Thiller) the subject remains (even after 150 years since it was discovered) in the hands of quacks who don't know how to interpret it but love selling cameras and mumbo-jumbo theories on how it can be used to identify any number of human diseases and maladies (the esoteric crowd). The "aura" produced in the photos is just up their street. Luckily, however, there is at least one scientist around (privately funded) who knows what Kirlian photography is and what it really can do, i.e. Prof. Dr. Popp at the International Institute of Biophysics in Kaiserslautern, Germany. He is one of the few people in this world who dismisses the mumbo-jumbo crowd and never ceases to amaze scientists the world over with his lectures and experiments based on Kirlian photography. Alan --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: The Bear's Cave (2:2461/161.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAL00003Date: 06/13/97 From: ALAN FLETCHER Time: 12:49am \/To: TY MEISSNER (Read 2 times) Subj: Bill White Hi Ty, Mind if I butt in here (stupid question as I already have)? ;-) You wrote to Mark: > I agree that one of the most appealing features of complimentary > medicine is that it challenges the hidebound prejudices of the > traditional western medical establishment, which in spite of its > accomplishments, is VERY young compared to say traditional Chinese > medicine, and like any typical teen, it arrogantly dismisses all > divergent views as ignorance. > The best medicine, IMO, is integrative medicine which APPROPRIATELY > culls the best of western and eastwern traditions and synthesises > them > into a holistic practice using the latest as well as the oldest > technologies. Do you really still believe that the Chinese or Outer Mongolians or whoever have the answer to your problems? Or do you still believe in an alternative medicine rather than an allopathic medicine. If you use the word "medicine", what is the difference (considering that allopathic medicine is still largely based on natural herbs)? Are you interested in "treatment" (which is the role of both allopathic and alternative medicine) or "cure", which only the body itself is capable of bringing about? I still find it difficult to "know where I am" in this echo because it would seem that many (mostly Americans) still believe that treating symptoms (the allopathic approach) is synonymous with curing. I had hoped that the alternatives over there (or at least in here) had progressed beyond this disillusionary stage. Just so's you know who you are talking to when you talk to me..alternative medicine to me (and the Natural Hygiene Society which I support) is simply the attainment of what we believe to be true health and wellbeing based on current knowledge. We also have a branch in the U.S.A. BTW (no I'm not trying to sell you anything as the Natural Hygiene movement is a non-profit organization...just letting you know). Best regards, Alan --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: The Bear's Cave (2:2461/161.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 257 ALTERN. MEDICINE Ref: EAL00004Date: 06/13/97 From: ALAN FLETCHER Time: 01:14am \/To: TED BARNES (Read 2 times) Subj: Cancer Hi Ted, You mentioned the subject of cancer (and my name) so I hope you don't mind me butting in on your conversation with Mark: > TB>To use any source you must give us the source so we may refute this > TB>information. > MP> I have to defend Alan in this one. Alan is talking to Jane. Jane's > MP> "sources" are always unverifiable. For the most part, she uses sales > MP> literature and anecdotes told by salesmen. When she has been given > MP> hard cites by me, and others, she scoffs at them because she does ot > MP> agree with them. > MP> In dealing with Jane, fairy tales are the accepted standard of proof. > Ahh, but as you may say Jane deals with Fairy Tales, so does Alan. If we are taking about cancer..I will give you any sources you like on what I say on this subject. I do sometimes say that "I believe" or "I am convinced" merely because the sources (which you can have) are also not yet certain. Cancer..as I'm sure you are aware..is still a problem not yet solved. OTOH, the incidence of cancers is on the increase..and Jane does not offer any explanation or theory as to why whatsoever. > If he cannot give sources then his sources are moot. Which sources would you like and on what aspect? > You say > that Jane beleives in Fairy tales, okay lets run with this. > What is the proof that her beliefs are fairy tales? > What is the proof that Alan's beliefs are different? The word "beliefs" is correct in that I can only assess the information available to me at the present time..which is still far from conclusive as far as cancers are concerned. You have hit a nerve here with me as this is my pet subject. :-) > The only thing I can see, is because Alan says so and > you are standing behind him. I don't need people to stand behind me and will also disagree with Mark (or anybody else) on occasion. I try to leave emotions or personal preferences etc. out of the issue. ALTMED is a serious subject which deserves serious discussion and the worldwide exhange of info and experiences. Nothing more and nothing less. > Why does Jane not get this same benifit of the doubt? I have agreed with Jane on occasion (as she on occasion with me) and sometimes disagreed (or at least asked for more info). Jane has just as much right to her opinion as anybody else insofar as she sticks to the subject of this echo. > Now being an alcoholic myself, a recovering one for over 6 years. > No I don't know all the answers, but I can be sure that I have > researched into my own sickness. I do know that there are no > mainstream ideals such as Alan's regarding this. Could you elaborate on my "mainstream ideals" as I am not aware that I have been "pushing" any (merely discussing). > Now being an > alcoholic without ever injesting the product is not myth. I have never ever professed that it is. Merely that parents who like to booze can create an addiction in the child (via the umbilical cord). A genetic link OTOH is still not proven. > I heard a person say it another way, if you have never been exposed > to the toxins of a Corel Snake, does this mean you will not die > if one bites you? Of course not, your body is still going to react > to these toxins. Just a thought. I fail to see the logic behind this Ted in connection with alcoholism. Most can drink large amounts of the stuff and never become addicted..some get addicted almost immediately (presumably those who were fed it regularly in the womb) and others take a varying amount of years to become addicted. It is surely nice and neat to be able to blame alcoholism on somethig else (like your genes or your parents) but it still remains a self-inflicted injury as most are aware these days of the dangers of alcohol and can thus choose to avoid it completely. Alan --- GEcho 1.00 * Origin: The Bear's Cave (2:2461/161.5)