--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1Q00001 Date: 01/18/98 From: JOHN SANGWIN Time: 10:52am \/To: NEIL FERGUSON (Read 0 times) Subj: Boat Show Hello Neil. 17 Jan 98 22:15, Neil Ferguson wrote to All: NF> Is there anybody in this echo that actually lives in the UK? Yes, sure thing, me! NF> More to the point is there anybody that lives far enough NF> South to go to the International Boat Show (Earls Court). For NF> those that are interested I have a couple (96) pictures... I went to the show a couple of days ago, but am not at all sure what you are asking/offering? NF> Anyway, Boat Show aside, anybody out there interested in Topper NF> sailing? I used to sail Toppers -good dinghies for fun, and for class racing. Trouble is that I, being 6ft tall, was a bit too bit for them. Now, the new Topper I saw at the show would be a different kettle of fish! Cheers, John --- GoldED/386 3.00.Beta1+ * Origin: * The NarrowBoat * (2:253/402) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1R00000 Date: 01/21/98 From: NEIL Time: 10:22pm \/To: JOHN SANGWIN (Read 0 times) Subj: Boat Show John Sangwin said to Neil Ferguson... <=- NF> Is there anybody in this echo that actually lives in the UK? JS> Yes, sure thing, me! At last! Somebody that doesn't type with an American accent - not that I have anything against our transatlantic friends, but just not ALL the time...! NF> South to go to the International Boat Show (Earls Court). For NF> those that are interested I have a couple (96) pictures... JS> I went to the show a couple of days ago, but am not at all sure what JS> you are asking/offering? Well anybody that didn't go that wanted to see what it was like, I've got a load of pictures to show them what it was like. To be honest I didn't have much time to take them I was so busy shopping and finding the Topper/Laser stuff... JS> I used to sail Toppers - good dinghies for fun, and for class racing. JS> Trouble is that I, being 6ft tall, was a bit too bit for them. Now, JS> the new Topper I saw at the show would be a different kettle of fish! Which one was that? I quite looked the look of the Blaze last year (or was it the year b4?) but I fancy a single hander with a cruising chute at the moment - that would just be /too/ cool! I know one exists, but on a 15 year old's budget with limited skills I don't think I've got a chance! If I recall, the only other new ones were the Spice (the adjustable cross between the Buzz and Iso) and the SailAbility Tri... They seem to have diversified a little - I remember the days (I'm only 15!) when they sold very little other than the Topper... Now if my memory serves me correctly, you can get the: Topper Byte Blaze Spice Cruz Cruz something (can't remember what the other one is) Sport (two of them) Iso Boss Bull AWA the Cats, the Tri and I think another I can't remember. I've got the stuff I picked up somewhere... WHAT a selection. I quite fancy some test sails in some of them but I'm not terribly good at sailing - never seem to beat many people in any form of racing, from school races (once a week in the summer we go for an evening after school) to Club level and beyond! To boldly sail where no 15 year old (that can't sail) has ever sailed b4! BTW I have a short questionnaire for you - if you don't mind... 1. How old are you? 2. What do you sail? 3. Where are you? 4. Modesty aside, how good are you? 5. Which qualifications do you have? I've only been sailing for about, er, yr 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 = 4.5 years so perhaps I'll improve with practice. I might be at the Nationals this year, and possibly the Worlds if I can get the lift - and I'm getting on for 5ft 10 so I'm not small! There's a couple of travellers/Nationwides I'm doing if ou live nearby - why not come along! You have a boat I take it? See ya, Neil ==== Internet: SailCool@yahoo.com : Fidonet 2:440/60 : SurreyNet 60:610/60 ... "Yummy," said Pooh, as he rotated Piglet slowly on the spit. --- Blue Wave/RA v2.20 * Origin: P C Forum * Darford, Kent, UK * +44-1322-288006 * (2:440/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1R00001 Date: 01/21/98 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 10:31am \/To: GORDON KEETON (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull Speed & Boat Speed GK> My wife and I are taking boating classes from the USCG. We just had GK> a class that included hull speed. My boat has 18.5 feet of water line. GK> Giving it 5.7 knots hull speed, or 6.8 MPH. Does this meen my sailboat GK> will not go any faster the 5.7 knots, or 6.8 MPH? If it will go faster GK> how much faster? How crazy are you, how well can you afford to consider the boat disposable, what hull design is it, and what sails do you have for it? I know one doctor who sailed a 24' wl fairly sturdily built traditional hull at 9 knots for an extended distance by flying a large spinnaker under conditions absolutely inapproriate for it. Essentially, that means he was throwing a wake like a power boat, dragging down the stern like a brake and leaving a bit of void, plus wrapping a quarterwave up at the stern well beyond what most sailors do. Some yacht club friends who are live aboards on a 40'er with a wl of around 34' can sail around 15 or 20 knots. That's an ocean going cat, which has to be kept light enough to get up on minimal wetted area and plane, just like a little Hobie and not a displacement hull, almost without healing. They have a rotating mast. Hull speed is based on your waterline length without healing, and can ncrease in hulls designed to get longer as to wetted area as they heal. It is also based on treating a hull as a strict displacement hull of that length, as opposed to planing or overpowered conditions. In theory if you could overpower the hull as is done in many sportsfisherman style stinkpots, and throw equivalent style wakes, you could draw a large void aft of the transom and in effect simulate a much longer boat, with the wake resulting as the void collapsed back together. In practice you're likely to see about 10% over hull speed on average sailboats, based on slight effective length increases while healing plus slight overpowering resulting in a small quarterwave. BTW, what length are they teaching you a nautical mile is? Whatever it is, they're wrong. Well, what that really means is that while a statute mile is a well defined number of feet, a nautical mile is a raction of the Earth's equator circumference. Since the Earth isn't entirely pheroid and uniform, there is a range of numbers possible that have all been argued s the length of a nautical mile, with a few more commonly accepted than others. Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Terry's Tavern! Derby, CT 203-732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1S00000 Date: 01/22/98 From: LAURENCE CHARLOT Time: 08:35pm \/To: GORDON KEETON (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Hull speed & boat spe -=> Quoting Gordon Keeton to All <=- GK> My wife and I are taking boating classes from the USCG. We just GK> had a class that included hull speed. My boat has 18.5 feet of water Gordon - the hull speed of a "displacement" type hull is a concept that has to do with the induced drag of the hull as it moves through the water. A conventional sailboat with a displacement monohull has to push water out of the way at the bow, creating a bow wave, and eddies form at the stern as the water moves in to fill the space left behind the boat. Both of these phenomena, the bow wave and the stern turbulence eddy, take kinetic energy from the boat. The faster the boat tries to move, the more water it must displace, resulting in more energy being sucked away by the bow wave. This energy loss is an exponential curve, not linear, and the bottom line is that as a displacement hull approaches it's "hull speed", the amount of energy lost to the bow wave rises so sharply that even a 10 or 20 fold increase in engine (or sail) power would not make the boat go any faster -- the extra propulsion power would all go into making a bigger bow wave. In real life, the actual result of putting on a massive increase of engine power is that the boat will rise up on top of it's own bow wave and start planing, if the hull is light enough. If the boat can't get on plane due to weight, it just plows ahead, throwing away all the extra energy as waves and turbulence. This is what the MacGregor 26X does when you stick a 50 horsepower engine on the back and drain the water ballast. It becomes a planing-hull power boat instead of a displacement hull sailboat. I went sailing with my club (Catalina 22 Fleet 4) on San Francisco Bay last weekend. Had a few hours of nice sailing, but the price was steep -- on Sunday afternoon as I was getting ready to head home, a storm hit and I had 2 hours of total misery to de-rig the boat and get it ready to trailer home. Oh well, that's the chance you take to go sailing at this time of year. -Larry Charlot Catalina 25 #1205 "Summertime Dream" --- HyperMail! v1.22 * Origin: Omni - (916) 388-0905, longest running Sac BBS (1:203/3333) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1T00000 Date: 01/23/98 From: DAN CEPPA Time: 11:53pm \/To: LAURENCE CHARLOT (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull speed & boat spe -> On 22 Jan 98 15:35:00, Laurence Charlot got back to Gordon Keeton LC> hit and I had 2 hours of total misery to de-rig the boat LC> and get it ready to trailer home. Oh well, that's the LC> chance you take to go sailing at this time of year. Almost a year ago, I sailed in Thrash, up in Victoria. It was supposed to be a spring-like weekend. Needed ice skates to run the foredeck! ... Reasons to charter: To play with all the fancy equipment on the boat.. --- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: From the Northwest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1T00001 Date: 01/23/98 From: NEIL Time: 09:15pm \/To: GORDON KEETON (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull Speed & Boat Speed Gordon Keeton said to All... <=- GK> My wife and I are taking boating classes from the USCG. We just GK> had a class that included hull speed. My boat has 18.5 feet of water GK> line. Giving it 5.7 knots hull speed, or 6.8 MPH. Does this meen my GK> sailboat will not go any faster the 5.7 knots, or 6.8 MPH? If it will GK> go faster how much faster? I think you'll find that the hull speed is the maximum speed that the hull can attain whilst NOT on the plane. Should you manage to rise up onto your bow wave and "plane" the boat, you can reach speeds far in excess of this. When Laser sailing, it is feasible to experience speeds twice the rated hull speed on broad reaches and (training) runs. BTW if you ever want to generally chat about sailing - here I am! Whilst I may not be an instructor yet I am in training and I need the practice, so please ask me any questions you want! Also accepting NetMail and E-Mail now! See ya, Neil ==== Internet: SailCool@yahoo.com : Fidonet 2:440/60 : SurreyNet 60:610/60 ... "Standby to Capsize" "Ready" "Capsize-oh!" --- Blue Wave/RA v2.20 * Origin: P C Forum * Darford, Kent, UK * +44-1322-288006 * (2:440/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1U00000 Date: 01/24/98 From: NEIL Time: 04:42pm \/To: TERRY SMITH (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull Speed & Boat Speed Terry Smith said to Gordon Keeton... <=- Hello! Whilst I hate to get myself involved in your reply to this message, I just thought I'd ask/point out something: TS> BTW, what length are they teaching you a nautical mile is? TS> Whatever it is, they're wrong. Well, what that really means is TS> that while a statute mile is a well defined number of feet, a nautical TS> mile is a fraction of the Earth's equator circumference. Since the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TS> Earth isn't entirely spheroid and uniform, there is a range of numbers TS> possible that have all been argued is the length of a nautical mile, TS> with a few more commonly accepted than others. Either you have worded this incorrectly or what you say must be wrong - so I would have thought. You first say that the Nm is a fraction of the EQUATOR circumference. Since there is obviously only one way in which to measure the circumference around the equator, your saying that there are a range of possible numbers should theoretically be incorrect. If it was the Earth's circumference, fine(!), but round the equator I'd have to disagree... Just thought I'd ask, 'cos you seemed to be contradicting yourself a little. I do it all the time myself... BTW what about planing - I suggested that to Gordon... Finally, what sort of boats do you sail? See ya, Neil ==== Internet: SailCool@yahoo.com : Fidonet 2:440/60 : SurreyNet 60:610/60 ... "Yummy," said Pooh, as he rotated Piglet slowly on the spit. --- Blue Wave/RA v2.20 * Origin: P C Forum * Darford, Kent, UK * +44-1322-288006 * (2:440/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1U00001 Date: 01/24/98 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 10:57pm \/To: DAN CEPPA (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull speed & boat spe LC> hit and I had 2 hours of total misery to de-rig the boat LC> and get it ready to trailer home. Oh well, that's the LC> chance you take to go sailing at this time of year. DC> Almost a year ago, I sailed in Thrash, up in Victoria. It was DC> supposed to be a spring-like weekend. I've been out in squalls with 50 knot gusts and rain coming down sideways. It's very nice to only do that in boats large and seaworthy enough so that you're not all that worried about losing control. Those little bobbing cork boats are sort of amusing, so long as they don't have to be picked off the rocks. (Nothing that could be trailered without a travel lift, tractor trailer, and oversized load permits from every state, and a lot more than 2 hours in or ut of the water....) Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Terry's Tavern! Derby, CT 203-732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1V00000 Date: 01/25/98 From: TERRY SMITH Time: 06:11am \/To: NEIL (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull Speed & Boat Speed TS> BTW, what length are they teaching you a nautical mile is? TS> Whatever it is, they're wrong. Well, what that really means is TS> that while a statute mile is a well defined number TS> of feet, a nautical TS> mile is a fraction of the Earth's equator circumference. Since the N> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TS> Earth isn't entirely spheroid and uniform, there TS> is a range of numbers TS> possible that have all been argued is the length of a nautical mile, TS> with a few more commonly accepted than others. N> Either you have worded this incorrectly or what you say N> must be wrong - so I N> would have thought. You first say that the Nm is a N> fraction of the EQUATOR N> circumference. Since there is obviously only one way N> in which to measure the N> circumference around the equator, your saying that there are a range of N> possible numbers should theoretically be incorrect. If it was the rth's Yes and no. By some definitions it's any minute of arc on any great circle f the Earth, while some have based that on the equator. Since the Earth isn't true sphere, there are no true great circles, and all possible approximations are subject to measurement assumptions of averaging elevation changes. ither way, there's a clear nominal basis, and a significant arbitrary factor. Numbers I've seen for it vary from 6024 through 6080.2 feet, with 1852 M or 6076.115' a current official value, though with 6080' accepted by some countries. In any event, it's 1/21600th of the Earth's circumference, whatever that is. N> BTW what about planing - I suggested that to Gordon... That's one of the reasons the US raced a large cat after dropping the old 12 meter rules for the America's Cup a few challenges back, technically meeting most of the rules but twisting them a bit. Note that while a racing hull is a shell with no creature comforts (unless we're talking a 65' ketch rigged for Trans Atlantic races, with lockers of le and scotch for those Brits; Newport, RI which has hosted 12 M, Trans Atlantic solos, and Bermuda races was within my cruising area over the years, to ander around and see what was there), outfitting that 40' cat I've mentioned here is a little trickier, as 2 adults and a kid are live aboard world cruisers on it. That leads to questions of water and fuel or light weight, even though here's space for lots of stuff, with a 4-6,000 lb range determining how easily it an be made to plane. N> Finally, what sort of boats do you sail? Most of my experience has been on a 35' keel-centerboard yawl with about 10' beam and a 15,000 lb displacement, and only 4'3" draft board up (rarely used). I've sailed from an 8' Dyer dinghy or Sunfish through a 42' Alden Challenger (classic yawl) and Hinckley Ketch, with some time in years past on a 17' Alcort (trailerable), a 21' (forget what sloop), a 24' French Golif, and a 28' Pearson Triton. Most of my experience has been around Southern New England coastal waters and islands, though I've sailed from Atlantic City, NJ through Gloucester, MA actively, and on both coasts of Florida. I've done a small amount of racing, though mostly cruising. Terry --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Terry's Tavern! Derby, CT 203-732-0575 (1:141/1275) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 254 SAILING Ref: F1V00001 Date: 01/25/98 From: DAN CEPPA Time: 10:29pm \/To: TERRY SMITH (Read 0 times) Subj: Hull speed & boat spe -> On 24 Jan 98 17:57:42, Terry Smith got back to Dan Ceppa DC> Almost a year ago, I sailed in Thrash, up in Victoria. It was DC> supposed to be a spring-like weekend. TS> I've been out in squalls with 50 knot gusts and rain coming down TS> sideways. It's very nice to only do that in boats large and seaworthy TS> enough so that you're not all that worried about losing control. Been out in gusts of 35 to 40. Quite the ride! It was on a boat that LC may be quite familiar with: A Bahama 25. In fact, the boat was built specifically for the heavy air in 'Frisco Bay. TS> Those little bobbing cork boats are sort of amusing, so long as they TS> don't have to be picked off the rocks. There's be a few groundings near here. Fortunately, nothing serious. TS> (Nothing that could be trailered without a travel lift, tractor TS> trailer, and oversized load permits from every state, and a lot more TS> than 2 hours in or out of the water....) ... What do you mean? Spinnakers AREN'T supposed to look like hourglasses --- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12 * Origin: From the Northwest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)