--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00034 Date: 04/20/98 From: MARK DAVY Time: 10:48am \/To: STEPHEN TURNER (Read 0 times) Subj: Goliath 2 Kicking hardcore lyrics with Robert Richards, Goliath 2 played chords from Stephen Turner's song... -> I kinda Like Supreme.. But Not as another Superman.. I read it for Fu ST> Couldn't bring myself to read it! After that fiasco with "the Death of ST> Superman" at the hand of Doomsday. I knew I'd be disappointed. ST> Storylines like this were handled MUCH better back in the heydays of the ST> Silver Age! RR> True.. which is Just what they are trying for in Supremes book... ST> Is this "Supreme" character Superman himself, or some "Phoenix" like ST> entity that possessed him? I think he is supposed to be the "not-damnably-nice" version of Superman. Heck, the first time I even saw (the original) Supreme, he slaughtered a room full of kidnappers without flinching. Gory! {shudders} I think there are three or four Supremes out right now: Supreme, Kid Supreme, Lady Supreme, Supreme II... I am not sure, for I don't follow the book. The characters in Image Comics are notorious for being "over-the-top" powerful, but they tend to make up for it by how completely MESSED IN THE HEAD they are. {grins, shudders} Oh, is there a fan fiction base around here somewhere? I might try my hand in writing a few stories in the Marvel, DC, and Image universes for fun. ... "I pity the fool who told me those lies!"-Eddie Murphy as Mr. T ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR] --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: Subterrania (1:250/524) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00035 Date: 04/23/98 From: DAVE JANSEN Time: 03:11am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Blue Bolt I read in the new CSN that several issues of this 1941 book, the first work of the famous Simon -Kirby team, is going to be reprinted, in color.Now this is something definitly on my list to get!! While theres a fair amount of golden age being reprinted,not much of its in color! --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.1d * Origin: The Playhouse TC's Gaming BBS/www.phouse.com/698.3748 (1:282/4059) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00036 Date: 04/23/98 From: DAVE JANSEN Time: 03:14am \/To: PERRY HOLLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Avengers Vol.1,#4 THAT, is the issue that the alien appeired in, who turned the avengers to stone.Cap captured him, made him turn them back, freed his ship with thors help, to return home, presumably to die at phoeinxs hands. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.1d * Origin: The Playhouse TC's Gaming BBS/www.phouse.com/698.3748 (1:282/4059) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00037 Date: 04/23/98 From: DAVE JANSEN Time: 03:19am \/To: ALL (Read 0 times) Subj: The never printed DC treasury ed. I speak of course, of The Simon/Kirby Captain Marvel adventures #1. I beleave that marvel comics made a stink about the title, & DC caved in,& simply canneled the reprinting scheduled for late 1974. A REAL shame because the books SO expensive!! I wish that DC would revive the treasury classic reprint serries, with this one at the top of the list! These were large size EXACT reprints,that were a joy to purchase. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.1d * Origin: The Playhouse TC's Gaming BBS/www.phouse.com/698.3748 (1:282/4059) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00038 Date: 04/22/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 11:20pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Green Arrow ST> Dude, when this character was in his prime, stuff like that didn't ST> happen! DH> DH> I'm afraid that was then... and this is now. You admitted that DH> you hadn't bought comics regularly in over a decade. If the old- DH> guard aren't going to stick around and show support for "the old DH> ways", those "old ways" are eventually going to give-way to DH> something else... which they evidently have. DH> ST> To the greater detriment of comics as we knew them....! DH> DH> To a point... yes, I agree with you. I miss the elegant DH> simplicity of the way comic stories got told in "the old days". DH> Gone are the days when a term like "Unstable Molecules" could be a DH> catch-all for explaining why the Human Torch's costume didn't burn up DH> when he "Flamed On" or the Invisible Woman's costume turned invisible DH> when she did. These days, we wanna know the mechanism by which those DH> unstable molecules work (we're like the fans in that infamous William DH> Shatner/Star Trek Convention skit on "Saturday Night Live"...). Actually, DC was always the one to explain its heroes' "raison d'etres" or modus operandi using science rather than some ctachall like "unstable molecules", and DC's powers were, though naturally strecthed to their credible limit and beyond, based on solid fcat or viable theory....witness the Flash's ability to vibrate through solid objects or slice thorugh a tree with his hand at super speed. Marvel was the one to use blanket explanations and whimsical science to justify their ideas and powers. DC, you remember, was the "establishment" and had to appear likem solid, Comics Coe citizens...Marvel was the maverick that BECAME the establishment!! DH> One-issues stories, another thing I miss, are a rarity these days. DH> We've also lost the pureness to our heroes. In the past, super-heroes Amen!! When they start messing around with Supes, you KNOW nothing's sacred!! DH> were always right. They never did anything as remotely "human" as DH> make a bad judgement call or, by their actions (directly or This was DC's whole reason for existence...the infallible, role-model superhero! You wanted personality and relative realism...you went to Marvel, it was as simple as that! Then tyhe lines blurred...but the result, as we're seeing now, is even taking down the iconoclasts of the past! Che infam*!! DH> Upon reflection, just what were the "old ways"? Comics DH> have almost always been reflections of the times in which they DH> are/were published... or so I believe anyhow. From World War II DH> through the McCarthy-Era to the beginning of the Cold War, the Space DH> Race and "Flower Power" to Feminism, Disco and Nuclear Power to "The DH> Me Decade" and on to Generation X... they've all added their own DH> distinctive flavour to comics (even if some were around for a lot DH> longer than others). No one era is exactly the same as the last... DH> and I suppose that is the way it should be. How therefore, are the DH> '80s & '90s any different? Eventually '90s sensibilities (such as DH> they are) will give way to something new... and comics will evolve DH> again (because they HAVE to). I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that I DH> think mistakes have been made over the years (especially since DH> 1980)... but I guess that's to be expected. However, to expect DH> things to remain exactly as they've always been (or as we remember DH> them) is unrealistic too. Comics, as they always have done, must DH> change to meet the changing times (and new readers)... and sometimes DH> the changes are rather radical (rightly or wrongly). I guess my take on it is that the 90's just aren't making it for me culturally, and that's that!! Look at 90's rock...it's so depressing and nihilistic, it's FRIGHTENING!!! This is carrying over to satellite industries such as comics and movies, where all the shibboleths and icons are beign dissected and defamed it seems, just for the SAKE of it, not for relevancy! ST> Just imagine if somebody heavily altered the legend of the Three ST> Musketeers, or Luke Skywalker....Capatin Blood? It just wouldn't ST> work, and I imagine that, if you were present during the silver ST> age, when the REAL refinements were originally made to these ST> characters, the present state of affairs would hit you the very ST> same way it's been hitting me....as HERESY!! (g) DH> DH> I'm not going to dispute the possibility that somebody who gave DH> up reading comics 12 years ago would be shocked at the changes DH> implemented over that time (the word "Heresy" is a little strong, DH> IMO... but that's just me). I guess it's a lot like jumping into a DH> cauldron of hot water vs. sitting in that cauldron while they heat the DH> water up gradually. One is a shock to the system... while the other DH> is not (although I'd still say the Crisis was a fairly big shock). Shock!!? It was no less than a catclysm!! You don't see Marvel killing of even its most OBSCORE perennials just for the sake of change!! How TPTB over at DC allowed its freelancers to kill of: Supergirl, Barry Allen, Wildcat, etc., I'll never know. MSHSW was unlike Crisis in that instead of PRUNING heroes, it enriched their legends, even adding yet another Galactus-type character in the Beyonder! To me, it looks like DC is being victimized by Marvel "agents" in the form of "house-jumpers" like CBS is being eaten away from inside by someone obviously working for NBC! DH> Heck, my comic buying was at it's highest during the '80s & early DH> '90s... and I'm still amazed (and sometimes shocked and even DH> disappointed) at some of the stuff that's been done... I continue DH> to keep buying because, despite the changes, I still find lots to like DH> about comics... even in the characters who've been replaced and/or DH> undergone renovations to make them relevant to a new generation. Not being part OF the new generation, and finding myself unable to even remotely assimilate myself into it, I find it hard to reconcile the fact that a lot of venerable heroes are being irrevocably and irresponsibly changed just to suit a new generation of snot-nosed brats! There have been other "new" generations getting into comics in the past, and none of these things happened....why now? DH> I guess another point worth noting is that what we're talking DH> about here isn't new. The golden age characters gave way to the DH> silver age characters... and now they're "moving over" for the modern DH> age characters. Give the DC another 25 years or so... and we'll all DH> by crying in our beer over the loss of Connor Hawke, Kyle Rayner and DH> Wally West to a future generation of characters... Something tells me <> won't being crying about it.....<> still be crying about the loss of Ollie Queen, Linda Lee Danvers, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen and the old JLA and Legion!! Agony!!! (g) --- Renegade v5-11 Exp * Origin: Dar's House '13' BBS w/RIP & ANsI (610)543-1562 (1:273/433) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00039 Date: 04/22/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 11:44pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Green Arrow DH> I'm not sure what you mean by "Remember Robin? Speed? Wertham?". DH> Are you suggesting that the only characters worthy of replacing an DH> existing veteran is his/her sidekick? DH> ST> Considering how much better Batman was without Robin, I'd say ST> YES!! Green Arrow worked much better without Speedy as well! ST> Revamping Robin into the more mature Nightwing improved the ST> character IMMENSELY, in my opinion, (although I still don't like ST> his TT relationship with Starfire!) DH> DH> There's a couple of points I want to address here... DH> DH> 1) I think you missed the point of my my question... 'cuz IMO, DH> having Robin and Speedy grow up to be Nightwing and Arsenal DH> (respectively) isn't what I was referring to. Having Robin/Speedy DH> grow up to become the next Batman/Green Arrow was. I did miss that. Sorry. DH> 2) I'll agree with you that the bearded Green Arrow never worked well DH> with Speedy... but I think the clean-shaven Green Arrow with the Green DH> & Red costume (which will be featured in the next "Legends Of The DC DH> Universe" 3-parter which spotlights the first teaming of Green Arrow & DH> Green Lantern) did work well with a sidekick. The clean shaven GA was LIGHT YEARS different from the revamped, bearded GA....almost like they were two different people entirely!! The clean shaven GA, (with SPeedy,) was essentailly Batman with a bow....right bown to an "Arrow Signal" and an "Arrowcar", not to mention an "Arrowcave"!! The bearded one had a soul....had a purpose, had a PERSONALITY!!! The differencewas like night and day! Jack Kirby did some of his worst work for DC on the old, beardless GA.... DH> 3) You won't get any arguement from me about the Nightwing/Starfire DH> relationship. Don't get me wrong... I like both characters... but DH> Starfire just doesn't fit into the world of the Bat-characters... and DH> indeed, I believe the ongoing developments with their intimate DH> relationship kept Nightwing from being spun-off into his own series DH> (notice that Robin, Catwoman & Azrael all got ongoing series before DH> Nightwing even got his first mini-series... which didn't happen until DH> he was out of the Titans and his relationship with Starfire was over). DH> Fortunately, the writers of "The New Titans" stopped just short of DH> marrying them off... Thank de lawd! (g) DH> existing veteran is his/her sidekick? Or is it that the only way DH> to introduce a younger generation of characters is through the DH> introduction of a sidekick? DH> ST> Hardly. The only teen sidekicks that ever worked, to my mind, were ST> the Marvel kids and Kid Flash, who is now THE Flash! You could see ST> Wally learning in every Infantino/Broome adventure he shared with ST> his mentor! DH> DH> I agree. If there was an original Teen Titan who always seemed DH> destined to take over for his mentor... it was Wally West (and I think DH> he's done a great job of it too). After Roy Harper's drug problems, DH> the Speedy/Green Arrow partnership suffered a fatal blow... as did the DH> "Dynamic Duo", when Dick Grayson decided he wanted out from under the DH> Shadow Of The Bat. The result was that both sidekicks abandoned that DH> role in favour of becoming their own hero. To that end, it'd be my Which, if you ask me, worked beautifully. They're even putting Nightwing in the new Batman/Superman show, with ONE of the newer Robins, (probably Jason,) as the Bat's sidekick. It's being handled well. I would expect no less from that excellent show. DH> Who the heck is Wertham? DH> ST> Man, you ARE from the latter egenration, aren't you?! DH> DH> I guess that depends what you consider to be the "latter DH> generation". I was born in 1965 and have been reading comics since DH> around 1972. Hmmm...then you would have been too young to even discuss the guy, but back in 1972, I created my OWN character, and the topic of Werthan sometimes came up when I talked about comics with friends. He was the TERROR of the comics industry and was responsible for the discontinuation of the infamous EC comics line, which was full of gore and quesitonable morals! (Shudder!) BTW, I'm almost sure that character I created somehow mutated into the X-man, Storm! The similarities are just too close! (Except for the gender.) ST> Dr. Wertham, Frederic Wertham, was the bane of all comicdom. He ST> wrote a book called "Seduction of the Innocent" where he went ST> after comics with a vengeance! He cited titles like Superman and ST> Captain Marvel as "violent and subversive", leading to juvenile ST> delinquency in minors. DH> DH> This wouldn't be the same guy who was featured in the quirky DH> documentary about the history of the comic industry called, "Comic DH> Book Confidential", would it? All the while he's going on about the DH> evils of kids rotting their minds on comics... a B&W film is playing DH> of a bunch of kids reading comics outdoors. Suddenly, one of the kids DH> gets this crazy-look in his eye and begins to mindlessly stab a tree DH> with a pen-knife. I nearly choked on my popcorn when I saw that in DH> theatres... It probably IS the same guy, but he could have had many clones. ST> He especially was fond of pointing out the homoerotic ST> possibilities of Batman and Robin: the fact that here was a grown ST> man and a young boy in leotards and capes, Robin in hot pants and ST> elfin shoes and a YELLOW cape, riding around at night in a two ST> seat automobile, ostensibly to catch crooks, but WE all knew ST> better!! DH> DH> Back in the late '80s/early '90s, Rick Veitch did a 5-issue mini- DH> series for King Hell comics called "Brat Pack" which was a very dark DH> look into the world of super-heroes with a special emphasis on the DH> life of the sidekick. One of the mentor characters is called "The DH> Midnight Mink"... who has a sidekick named "Chippy" and it's a DH> disturbingly twisted and similar sort of relationship (there was no DH> mistaking who they were supposed to be, lets put it that way...). DH> Yikes!!! 8) Yeah...."Bambi Meets Godzilla" Pt. 600! (g) In fcat, I'll bet you the sixties TV version of "Batman" was a soft version of that same thing. Scary, huh? ST> He went after TV, too....citing "Bonanza" as another example of ST> this sort of thing, due to its lack of womenfolk on the Ponderosa! DH> DH> Bonanza!?!?? But the Cartwrights were a family, for goodness DH> sake. What happened,... did he have his tie on too tight that morning DH> (cutting off the oxygen to his brain)? Somebody spike his coffee with DH> some halucinogenic substance?... He was a never-ending target of ridicule from comics-lovers everywhere, and considering how anal he was about the medium, it's not surprising. ST> We shall see, shan't we...? DH> DH> That we will, I guess. I read a rumour the other day which won't DH> make collectors of the current "Green Arrow" series very happy though. DH> When Kevin Smith becomes the writer of the book, it's being reset to DH> #1 (as will happen when he revamps Daredevil too)... so I guess we DH> can't complain that rebooting series is a Marvel-Only problem anymore. Maybe I'll pick up those issues.... Who knows...?? (g) --- Renegade v5-11 Exp * Origin: Dar's House '13' BBS w/RIP & ANsI (610)543-1562 (1:273/433) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00040 Date: 04/22/98 From: STEPHEN TURNER Time: 11:59pm \/To: DAVID HARDING (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Stan Lee: Man or Myth DH> A "wizened old turkey" and a "schmuck". There's respect for DH> you. 8| DH> ST> Well, I remember Marvel from before it lost its "maverick" status. ST> It was an inspired, quirky little outfit that was full of ST> inventive little surprises, like heroes that cracked jokes as they ST> slugged it out, heroes with neuroses, sidekicks that expounded on ST> the verbosity of their group's leaders and the kind of cosmic ST> concepts that made Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke such popular ST> sci-fi authors.... DH> DH> When did Marvel lose its "maverick" status? I mean, I know DH> Marvel has spent the better part of the last 2 decades being more of a DH> follower than an industry leader... but when exactly did they make the DH> switch in direction? Was it when Marvel became a public company? Was DH> it when the X-phenomina started? When? When it became the repository for every TV, movie and toy tie-in known to mankind, THAT'S when!! I mean, to have a comic run for a hundred issues about a mediocre spaceknight toy, (about 3/4 of those issues running after the toy stop being produced!) is, to me, the HEIGHT of slavish buck-chasing!! That wasn't what Marvel was supposed to be about, to my mind! ST> ...and watched it degenerate into one of he crassest, most profit ST> oriented outfits around! You're bound to look on the man riding ST> herd on all this as an "alte kocke" ANYDAY....!! DH> DH> If I'm going to cast blame on somebody, I like to heap it on the DH> person responsible... not the figurehead. If Stan Lee was at the helm DH> of Marvel when it degenerated into a profit-generating machine (made DH> all the worse when they have to answer to shareholders before their DH> readers), maybe he shares a bit of the blame... but even given that DH> situation, I still don't hold him totally responsible for the mess DH> Marvel has become over the past (almost) 2 decades. For quite a while DH> now, Stan Lee has been little more than a figurehead at Marvel... with DH> no power at all (as I understand it). To that end, for Marvel's DH> critics to lay the blame for the current state of Marvel at Stan Lee's DH> feet... I just think that's a little unfair. Oh yeah? You didn't read all those "Stan Lee's Soapboxes" in the 70's expounding orgasmically on the rapture of obtaining the rights to "the Micronauts" or "Strawberry Shortcake" and the like. The man, (or whoever was writing them for him,) was SHAMELESS!! DH> I guess your memory must be better than mine... 'cuz other than DH> getting older, I only ever remember one Stan "the Man" Lee. DH> Perhaps the artistic renditions of Stan Lee just didn't capture DH> the likeness of him very well. Perhaps it was intentional? I DH> don't know. DH> ST> Something tells ME it's just a corporate name, like the author of ST> the "Doc Savage" books..... DH> DH> Something tells me it's not... like the episode of "Biography" DH> which spotlighted the one and only Stan "The Man" Lee. Or the latest one bearing the name....(g) (Theme from "Psycho" playing in background....) DH> Besides, I think comic fans can, out of respect for his DH> contributions to comics, cut the man a little slack when it comes DH> to his memory. After all, the Marvel Universe he helped create is DH> the better part of 40 years old now... I think Stan Lee can be DH> forgiven for not being able to instantly recall names and facts. DH> Let's see how good our memories are when we get to be Stan's age. You have to remember, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others ALSO had a lot to do with the rise of Marvel. All Lee is is a publicity hound and PR man...then AND now!! ST> I dunno, you didn't see him fumble like I did. It was like he had ST> just been told about their existence as characters.... DH> DH> How many years ago did this happen? Quite a while ago...either in the early eighties or late seventies.... ST> Gee, I wonder who was writing for Roy Thomas.....(g) DH> DH> I don't know. Who? DH> ST> Shooter?? Conway?? de Falco?? DH> DH> Are you saying that Roy Thomas is a pen name for these 3 writers? Anything's possible! (g) --- Renegade v5-11 Exp * Origin: Dar's House '13' BBS w/RIP & ANsI (610)543-1562 (1:273/433) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00041 Date: 04/23/98 From: ROBERT RICHARDS Time: 8:28am \/To: PERRY HOLLEY (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Goliath 2 On Wed 22-Apr-1998 18:50 , Perry Holley said to Stephen Turner: PH> (Trivia question: the alien race that Dark Phoenix murdered (the PH> D'bari, I believe) showed up in one other Marvel comic... what was it?) The Avengers, Where all the Team, exept for Cap where turned to Stone. Very Early Issue. Robert Richards - Sysop Alpha's Attic Robert.Richards@attic.rook.wa.com --- CNet/3 * Origin: Alpha's Attic - Tacoma WA - (253)272-8083 (1:138/258) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00042 Date: 04/23/98 From: PERRY HOLLEY Time: 06:42pm \/To: DAVE JANSEN (Read 0 times) Subj: Avengers Vol.1,#4 DJ> THAT, is the issue that the alien appeired in, who turned the avenge DJ> to stone.Cap captured him, made him turn them back, freed his ship w DJ> thors help, to return home, presumably to die at phoeinxs hands. Yes indeedy!!! --- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - (Unregistered) * Origin: WILD TURKEY BBS * Doors, Doors, Doors (1:133/5012.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 101 COMICS Ref: F5G00043 Date: 04/23/98 From: PERRY HOLLEY Time: 06:47pm \/To: MARK DAVY (Read 0 times) Subj: Heroes For Harding MD> ST> IS "Power-man" still around, as Luke Cage...? MD> MD> He is going to be around... splattered on the pavement if the MD> current Heroes For Hire catch him. He's just betrayed the team MD> on a huge scale, and now the Original Human Torch is also trying MD> to get Danny (Iron Fist) assassinated. (Both of these sabotages MD> are being orchestrated by "The Master", a being on immense intellige MD> and skill, who is older than the Acropolis in Athens.) MD> MD> I still hate the fact that the "weak link" in the team *conveniently MD> happens to be the main Nubian character in the book. Then again, as MD> Danny's best friend, he does make for the most appropriate target MD> for "The Master" (otherwise known as Eshu) to work on. Oh well, not MD> as if I can rewrite the storyline in anything other than fan-fiction Is this the same 'Master' from the old Alpha Flight issues, by any chance? --- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - (Unregistered) * Origin: WILD TURKEY BBS * Doors, Doors, Doors (1:133/5012.0)