--------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00004 Date: 03/13/98 From: JAN DEBOER Time: 07:29pm \/To: GARY HALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Timing belt lifespan? On 12 Mar 98 21:43:48 gary hall wrote to Daryl Macdonald... JD> My 1989 Dodge Shadow 2.5 L has 129,000 kilometers on the JD> clock, with the original engine timing belt. JD> Anyone know what the normal lifespan of these belts is? gh> About two years ago get a belt installed or get AAA you gh> are living beyond borrowed time. Are you speaking from experience with the 2.5L engine, or just generally? One respondent told me the belt on a relative's 2.5 had to be replaced every 50,000 km. I suspect it didn't actually break, but that the _dealer_ replaced it as scheduled maintenance. If so, I think they were ripped off, because a local dealer informed me that they recommend timing belt replacement on the 2.5 every 100,000 km. Neither my owner's manual nor the Chrysler shop manual give recommended replacement intervals for the timing belt, so I am assuming it has a long lifespan. I was hoping for a response from one or more owners of a 2.5 who had driven until the belt broke. I am concerned about driving 'on borrowed time' with the original belt, and would like to get info from other 2.5 owners as to whether my fear is warranted, or if people routinely drive to 200k with the original belt! --- Everything/2 * Origin: Tiny's BBS - Inet: tinys.oix.com / On,Canada (1:229/600) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00005 Date: 03/14/98 From: MARK LOGSDON Time: 04:41pm \/To: DENNIS FARKAS (Read 0 times) Subj: Engineering??????? DF> ML> I worked for one of the Big Three, and I can tell you that the DF> ML> layout for the engine harnesses and wiring were usually done by DF> ML> mechanical engineers and draftsmen. Electrical engineers were DF> ML> usually often not consulted until after wiring problems appeared. DF> DF> Just out of curiosity, who does the Mechanical Engineering in Detroit? DF> The Marketing Departments, or perhaps the Accounting Department? I should clarify something. Electrical engineers provided the wiring schematic (including shielding) and specified the type of wire to be used. The mechanical engineers did the layout on the engine since the layout, routing, and clamping in a high temp and high vibratory environment is very much a mechanical science. It wasn't until electrical problems (such as noise) occured that an electrical engineer was brought back into the picture. I'm not making excuses for poor systems engineering. I'm simply trying to explain what often happens. A good engineer learns and understands the entire system, even those parts of the system outside his primary focus of education. I think you'll also find that wiring harnesses and connectors aren't considered "sexy" or "cool" among engineers. Thus the importance of wiring often gets trivialized. Yet it's the simplest part of the system that is often the most important and the weakest link in the chain. It's the managers and bean counters that often fail to understand this simple concept. --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0232 * Origin: IBMNet Connection - Indpls, IN - 317-882-5575 28.8 USR (1:231/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00006 Date: 03/14/98 From: MARK LOGSDON Time: 04:41pm \/To: TOM WALKER (Read 0 times) Subj: Engineering??????? TW> -> Just out of curiosity, who does the Mechanical Engineering in TW> Detroit -> Marketing Departments, or perhaps the Accounting Department? TW> TW> Now days it is Accounting. The "Bean Counters" have all the Trump TW> cards. Doesn't make for very good cars but sure Improves the Bottom TW> Line and Stockholder Dividends. And that is the Name of the Game isn't TW> it? Engine wiring should be followed through to completion by two engineers, a mechanical and an electrical, but too often the job is rushed through by one or the other because "there just isn't time." Thus you get mistakes. You get a EE who doesn't understand mechanics, or you get a ME who doesn't understand electromagnetics or circuits. When the product gets out quickly, it's the managers and bean counters who get the bonuses for quick sales and for saving labor costs, and it's the hapless engineers who get the blame for shoddy designs. --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0232 * Origin: IBMNet Connection - Indpls, IN - 317-882-5575 28.8 USR (1:231/1) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00007 Date: 03/14/98 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 08:54pm \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 0 times) Subj: Auto questions First, in order to answer your questions properly, one must know the make, model and engine you have. For instance, I removed the Cat from my 1979 Ford Van with a 460 V8 with no problems and NO improvement or loss of gas mileage or performance. Of courrse it has NO computer controls. Now with the later heavily computer controlled vehicles, removing the Cat WOULD present problems in the performance and mileage areas. RT>Question 1: RT>What affect does a bad cc have on engine performance? When I say "bad", RT>I mean one that has not been changed since factory new and is now over RT>two hundred thousand miles. Other than creating pollution and RT>undesirable emissions, will this condition have a detrimental affect on RT>the motor? Can such a cc cause an engine to miss-fire intermittently? RT>Bad fuel mileage? What? RT>Question 2: RT>Also about catalytic converters. Notwithstanding the laws against such RT>things, and the obvious pollution problems, what is the _performance_ RT>result in simply removing the converter? If one were to attempt to RT>eliminate the converter, would certain adjustments have to be made to RT>the engine, ignition, fuel system, etc.? Would this be different on a RT>computer controlled engine as opposed to an older, non-computerized one? RT>No flames please..... oh well, flame if you wish, but I'm only asking RT>the question for my own edification. Enhancing the knowledge base, you RT>know.... RT>Thanks, RT>Ron RT>--- RT> * QMPro 1.02 42-7029 * Who elected her??????? RT>--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 RT> * Origin: Crime Bytes (1:135/5.0) ___ OLX 2.1 TD Freedom: You don't notice it till AFTER it's gone! * --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00008 Date: 03/14/98 From: JAY EMRIE Time: 08:55pm \/To: ROY J. TELLASON (Read 0 times) Subj: OHM'S LAW / Current sensi RJT>Peter Harle wrote in a message to Roy J. Tellason: RJT>-=> Quoting Roy J. Tellason to Peter Harle <=- RJT> PH> The circuit to sense a failed brake light (globe) used by RJT> PH> several car and truck manufacturers was based on a relay with RJT> PH> two current windings. Whenever the current was balanced the RJT> PH> relay would NOT energize (differentially wound). If a globe in RJT> PH> either the right or left side of the vehicle went open circuit, RJT> PH> then the current flow through the two windings would be out of RJT> PH> balance and energize the relay contactor and illuminate a RJT> PH> warning light on the dash. RJT> RJT> I *like* this idea! Never thought about the differential current s RJT> RJT> way of telling that there was a problem. Though you'd have to wire RJT> RJT> such a device (or its equivalent) near the location of the bulbs, RJT> RJT> based on the way I see a lot of stuff being wired. RJT> PH> Depends on the vehicle of course, but some have separate fuses RJT> PH> for the left and right hand sides. RJT>I've never encountered this in anything I've owned. RJT> PH> That would allow the sensing coils to be located close to the RJT> PH> dash/fuses, rather than near the brake lights. Although most RJT> PH> cars do have two wires coming back from the lights and joining RJT> PH> at the brake light switch or fuse panel. RJT>I guess for brake lights there would be two separate wires involved, if th RJT>ere also used for turn signals. In the case of my current vehicle, it's t RJT>rst car that I've owned that had the "yellow" turn signals at the rear, so RJT>'re running a separate bulb for that. RJT> PH> Similar relays were used to indicate a fault condition in RJT> PH> indicator lights, or to operate a "slave relay" for truck RJT> PH> trailers etc. These were commonly available from Hella, Bosch, RJT> PH> Delco-Remy et all. RJT> RJT> I have never encountered such a relay, though I don't think it'd e RJT> RJT> all that difficult to manufacture. Are they expensive? Do you see RJT> RJT> any way to implement an electronic equivalent of such a relay? RJT> PH> What isn't expensive these days? RJT>Using parts you already have on hand vs. having to go out and buy... :-) RJT> PH> Reed relays are available in a wide range of configurations, RJT> PH> (NO/NC/CO change over) and current ratings. The reed relays I RJT> PH> fiddled with were around 40mm long x 4mm dia. RJT>I think that somewhere I have some reed switches bought at radio shack as a RJT>, 15 or so if I remember right, close to those dimensions. RJT> PH> the diffferentially wound coil was of 2 layers of 40 turns RJT> PH> of approx. 1mm dia. wound directly over over the glass reed RJT> PH> relay body. RJT>That's the part I was wondering about. 1mm diameter sounds like it's rough RJT>8 wire. I guess you'd wire these up so that the current goes in opposite d RJT>ions when things were working normally... RJT> PH> It wouldn't be difficult to come up with a sensor based on a RJT> PH> hall effect device (as per Mark Logsdon suggestion) or an MMF RJT> PH> resistor, either could be used within a toroidal current probe. RJT>Actually my original thinking on this was to insert a small-value esistor RJT>ch wire of the circuit, with some sort of a simple sensing circuit connect RJT> it, though I guess that the differential current relay sounds like it mig RJT> even simpler yet. I'm going to have to play with this idea a bit, look i RJT>t some. Roy, one need not go to all the sophisticated stuff being expounded here. Reed switches with N/O or N/C contacts are readily available that will do the job. No need for differential ckts or the like. Why make mountains out of mole hills? RJT> PH> But it's still much more practical to use a differentially RJT> PH> wound reed relay approach. Much more reliable compared to RJT> PH> setting up, & calibrating electronics to do the same job. RJT>Yeah, probably. RJT> PH> (dc coupled op-amps are a pain to set upon a single rail RJT> PH> supply!) RJT>That thought occurred to me too, though there are some which would perform RJT> in such a situation, like the 3130 or 3140. Or there's even using discre RJT>rts with a PNP input... RJT> PH> Roy, you should be able to get these relay units from Truck RJT> PH> wreckers etc. RJT>Yeah, and I even know where there is one of those places in the area, tho RJT>'d need to know pretty much exactly what I was looking for if I were to try RJT> approach. RJT> PH> I had some Hella & Bosch units as used in "Flashers" but can't RJT> PH> seem to find them at the moment, however they were very common RJT> PH> some 10 to 15 years ago (I was teaching automotive electronics RJT> PH> to auto-electricians at the time), I don't think they've found RJT> PH> a reliable solid state substitute yet. RJT>I'll have to look into this some more. RJT>email: roy.j.tellason%tanstaaf@frackit.com RJT>--- RJT> * Origin: TANSTAAFL BBS 717-432-0764 (1:270/615) ___ OLX 2.1 TD It'll fit, it just doesn't know it yet." --- RemoteAccess 2.50+ * Origin: Northern Lights! * San Antonio * 210-499-6299 V34/VFC (1:387/23) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00009 Date: 03/14/98 From: GARY HALL Time: 03:02pm \/To: ROY J. TELLASON (Read 0 times) Subj: OHM'S LAW On (11 Mar 98) Roy J. Tellason wrote to gary hall... gh> I work as a Automotive Electronics Techincian. which means I gh> repair all the screw ups the Automotive Engineers Made. RJ> You must keep *real* busy, then! This is for sure as an example which is one of the best. It is common knowledge that the three things that are the worse on electronic parts is, water, heat, and oils. Now for the GM brainstorm lets put the intire ignition Coil packs, crankshaft sensor, module, and wireing behind the engine twoards the bottom. Yes this way water, oil and Heat can get to them easly. Now human hands no way not from the top nor the bottom you can hardly see em. Good job GM designers --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: Terlton the Oklahoma Jungle 74081 (1:170/302.16) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00010 Date: 03/14/98 From: GARY HALL Time: 03:22pm \/To: RON TAYLOR (Read 0 times) Subj: Auto questions On (12 Mar 98) Ron Taylor wrote to All... RT> Question 1: RT> What affect does a bad cc have on engine performance? RT> Bad fuel mileage? What? Well a pluged even partial converter will cause a loss of high end power. I have from time to time even saw No Starts due to the things. Fuel economy will go to nothing darn near. the engine may not build RPMs even in neutral. If the thing gets pluged you'll know. RT> Question 2: RT> Also about catalytic converters. Notwithstanding the laws against RT> such things, and the obvious pollution problems, what is the RT> _performance_ result in simply removing the converter? Bad Idea if it has a O2 sensor it wont build enough heat. Slow or even No closed loop operation. Resulting in poor economy, performance loss, and loss of Spark Plug life. If it is Fuel Injected you'll most likley get a SES light. The EGR will not work properly if at all. pre ignition is common. I had one customer spend over 185 bucks putting a dual exhaust on a later model Chevy PU. Two week later he spent almost 400 bucks putting it all back on. The truck ran like do do without it. So guess my advise is leave it like it is or replace it with another converter in most states you have to to pass Inspection. --- PPoint 2.02 * Origin: Terlton the Oklahoma Jungle 74081 (1:170/302.16) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3J00011 Date: 03/14/98 From: MARK HOFMANN Time: 09:59pm \/To: GARY HALL (Read 0 times) Subj: Re: Monte Carlo SS & Gas mileage. > No biggie the same thing can be done with a AVOM the analog meter > can be purchased at Radio Shack for less than 5 bucks > The M/C works on 12 vdc so 6 vdc will = 30 deg dwell > it is measured on the Ground side of the solenoid so 0 volts is a > full lean command and 12 volts is a full rich command so what you > need is switching between both sides of 6 Volts got it. I have a digital voltmeter.. Will that work? How would I hook it up, and what should I set it to (DC I assume)..? Here is the latest update: I replaced the base gasket on the carb. There apparently was a slight air leak down there. I also adjusted the idle mixture screws to be 3 turns out each. Then turned the idle screw down a few turns. It is idling GREAT now. I still was getting the O2 lean error after idling for 2 minutes once it was warm, but I didn't reset the codes/computer before testing. I just did that, so I don't have a valid test yet. I can turn the screws another half turn or so and see what that does if it still is a problem. The light always goes back out once I start driving again and hitting the gas. - Mark weather@bcpl.net --- WWIVToss v.1.40 Registered * Origin: Weather Station, Baltimore, MD *USA* 410-882-8887 (1:261/1304.0) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3K00000 Date: 03/15/98 From: RUBEN LOPEZ Time: 10:57am \/To: DENNIS FARKAS (Read 0 times) Subj: El Paso AG> Well we in Europe pay $1 per LITRE, and there's five litres to a AG> gallon. RL> There is 3.8 liters per gallon. DF> Depends on wether you're talking US gallon or Imperial DF> gallon. 3.88 litres/US gallon (128 oz. fl.) 4.55 DF> litres/Imperial gallon (160 oz.fl.). DF> BTW, the rest of the World IS metric, get with the program. Well excuse me. I was not aware of that. My apologies. Ruben --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: McAllen Memorial Library FidoNet (1:397/5258) --------------- FIDO MESSAGE AREA==> TOPIC: 246 AUTOMOTIVE Ref: F3K00001 Date: 03/15/98 From: MARK LOGSDON Time: 11:43am \/To: GARY HALL (Read 0 times) Subj: OHM'S LAW GH> It is common knowledge that the three things that are GH> the worse on electronic parts is, water, heat, and oils. I would add vibration to that list. --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0232 * Origin: IBMNet Connection - Indpls, IN - 317-882-5575 28.8 USR (1:231/1)